The Pale and the Purple Rose

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Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
I suspected Cusa might've had something to do with it, but wasn't sure if that applied to after he died as well.
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practically during his stay in Bressanone he had created a sort of assistance network in the area which was supposed to protect the rights of the local episcopal territories, which was then maintained after his death ( it was also used by Frederick III ), in a surprisingly functional way and which provided a future idea for Max for his Swabian league ( at least that is what is stated in a biography on Cardinal Cusano )
 
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Aultre Naray [1]
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    • Kellan Sullivan

    To all my readers, my apologies for it being late:

    November 1471

    Soundtrack: Josquin des Prez - Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae - Sanctus

    *exterior* *Charles de Guienne finally arrives in Prague* *we see him riding into the town with his little band of followers* *he looks at the people* *they look at him*
    Charles: not exactly the warm welcome we were informed would await us, Lobkowicz

    *exterior* *Cheriton Wood, England, night* *George, Duke of Clarence and his army is ambushed by Jasper Tudor, Earl of Pembroke and his forces*

    *exterior* *Castle of Sandenberg, Veere* *we see Charles the Bold walking with a man in cleric's robes* *they're clearly in deep conversation* *we see Charles glancing into the next room where Marie of Burgundy, Philipp of Cleves and the young comte de Charolais are playing* *an older unfamiliar young man is with them*
    Charles: and things go no different in England. First this way, then that. My wife's brother of Clarence- by some miracle- managed to defeat the Lancastrians at Cheriton Wood. The earl of Pembroke and sixty of his men are once more captive of King Edward.
    Cleric: there is no hope to be found in the earl of Warwick's victory at Newburgh [Newbury]?
    Charles: *sourly* what victory? Warwick managed to stop the Yorkists from marching westwards- but there's no honour in it, King Edward was not with his men- and, in all likelihood, his advance, if he can't go west to meet up with the duke of Gloucester advancing Bristol, all three will likely turn northwards and march on Oxford as one.
    Cleric: has your Royal Highness considered the king of France's request now that winter is soon to be here?
    Charles: I refuse to allow King Louis to retain either Amiens or Saint-Quentin, Tolentis [2].
    Tolentis: of course, your Royal Highness.
    Charles: the duc de Guienne has sent Monsieur d'Ursé to me.
    Tolentis: your Royal Highness talks of the king of Bohemia?
    Charles: he is the duc de Guienne until he manages to stay his arse on the throne and keep a knife from his gizzard.
    Tolentis: was Monsieur d'Ursé here about the moneys that the king of Bohemia owes you?
    Charles: that too. And to inform me that he will be unable to make full restitution immediately. Apparently he got hornswoggled into agreeing to provide troops for the emperor.
    Tolentis: he agreed to the project for a Crusade in Hungary?
    Charles: you knew of this?
    Tolentis: I had heard whispers of it, sir. Nothing concrete. When I was sent from Rome, the idea was still an embryo.
    Charles: the emperor is a fool.
    Tolentis: *chiding* then your Royal Highness is criticizing not only the emperor, but his Holiness as well...since it is his Holiness' fondest ambition for a crusade to recover Constantinople from the Turk
    Charles: *bows head in contrition* your Grace must accept my apologies, I was unaware.
    Tolentis: the pope envisions an alliance of our native Venice, Hungary, Bohemia, the emperor, as well as Naples and the kingdoms of Spain...Cardinal Borgia has left the Castilian court, although he was unable to convince King Henry that the king of Sicily would be a far better match for the Infanta than the French king's nephew, a child of d'Armagnac [3] and Mademoiselle du Maine. The king has agreed to join the alliance.
    Charles: is there a reason why he believes an Armagnac traitor would be more useful?
    Tolentis: simply that he doesn't believe the king of Aragon is serious enough about his offer. There are all sorts of...vagaries the king of Castile is not happy with.
    Charles: naturally.
    Tolentis: if I may be so bold as to make a suggestion to your Royal Highness.
    Charles: if this is about receiving that cur, Nardini's missives from King Louis again [4]-
    Tolentis: hardly...I completely understand your Royal Highness' objections towards the man. neither his Holiness nor I are in any doubt that his master, the duke of Milan is responsible for the murder of poor Nicholas' uncle, Duke Borso *looks at Niccolo d'Este [5] with Marie and Philipp of Cleves*
    Charles: *nods*
    Tolentis: rather...I was going to suggest that your Royal Highness offer the troops to the emperor for his crusade.
    Charles: and why would I spare troops that I need?
    Tolentis: it would relieve the king of Bohemia of his obligations towards the emperor, and be a gesture of good faith now that the Princesse Marie is betrothed to her cousin in Lorraine. And it would convince the emperor of your Royal Highness' sincere wish for friendship to smoothe matters over between two great potentates as yourselves, without needing to recourse to such lows as the king of France obliges you to.
    Charles: and what would convincing the emperor of my friendship win me?
    Tolentis: gratitude, I am sure, sir. And gratitude is simply the delayed hope of more favours yet to come.

    *that night* *Charles in his study attaches his signature to a document* *followed by Tolentis, Chancellor Hugonet, the duke's lieutenant, Seigneur d'Humbercourt, Philipp of Cleves, Lord of Ravenstein and Niccolo d'Este*
    *the camera zooms in on the document's phrasing*
    Charles: *V/O* qu'aucun n'est le plus véritable héritier de la maison de Lancastre que Charles, duc de Bourgogne, etc etc etc [6] [7]

    *fade to black*

    [1] the motto of Philippe the Good (and also, the original motto of the Order of the Golden Fleece). An abbreviation of "Aultre naray, tost ou tard vienne" (I shall accept no other, sooner or later, it will happen/I will get it)
    [2] Lucas de Tolentis, Bishop of Šibenik (Knin), papal legate to Burgundy,, and per R.J. Walsh's article, Diplomatic Aspects of Charles the Bold's Relations with the Holy See,
    He won the friendship and admiration of several of the legates and he sought to enlist their help in advancing his interests. Lucas de Tolentis, for instance, became convinced of the duke's greatness and religious devotion, and he took it upon himself to advise Sixtus IV to do everything necessary to retain the duke's goodwill
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    [3] the consideration of this match is actually OTL. Jean V d'Armagnac was holed up in Castile and also, Juana la Beltraneja's godfather.
    [4] Charles felt Stefano Nardini, archbishop of Milan, the other papal legate, was too biased towards King Louis. He felt the same about Cardinal Bessarion and Andrea dei Spiriti (who'd negotiated Franco-Burgundian affairs in 1467-1468). That they favoured France or the duke of Milan over Burgundian interests. De Spiriti even excommunicated Charles on behalf of King Louis, although the pope disregarded this as he hadn't given his approval for such tactics
    [5] OTL, Francesco d'Este, illegitimate son of Leonello d'Este, was in Burgundy. Given the murder of his uncle for being too "pro-Venetian" and "anti-Milanese", Niccolo hightailing it to his half-brother in Burgundy doesn't actually sound that crazy.
    [6] that none is a truer heir to the house of Lancaster than Charles, Duke of Burgundy, etc etc etc.
    [7] Charles actually signed a document that said this on November 3, 1471 (although the witnesses were d'Humbercourt and Hugonet and two unnamed notaries). It's now in the archives of the house of Croy at the Chateau de Beaumont:
    It was expressly stipulated that if there were any delay in the duke's entering upon his English inheritance—which devolved to him through his mother,—a delay caused by motives of public utility of Christendom, and of the House of Burgundy, this should not prejudice his rights or those of his successors. A mere deferring of assuring the titles, etc., brought no prejudice to his rights.
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    • Kellan Sullivan

    HortenseMancini said:
    ooo spicy. i'm curious how does charles square that circle given the existence of his portuguese cousins?
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    as said, OTL he did this despite their existence, despite the fact that Edward IV was sitting in London (or that he was married to Edward's sister), so I doubt that the existence of a daughter for the prince of Wales will make the slightest difference regarding his opinion.

    However, in a surprising show of tact, Charles didn't publish the "manifesto" though, so I don't know what his actual reason for writing it was. He certainly showed no favour to assisting Edward when the latter invaded France. In fact, instead of assisting Edward, he insisted that the English king come and help him (think this was around the time Charles was busy with the Siege of Neuss).

    Dragonboy said:
    @Kellan Sullivan ! Amazing work!
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    thank you very much. I couldn't find much online on what Charles was willing to surrender to France in 1471 (@Janprimus ) in exchange for his refusal to hand Amiens/Saint-Quentin over- after all, in a series of compromises/truces like dominated between 1471-1475, it implies that Charles had bargaining power of "I'll give you x, if you give me y"- so decided instead to look at international affairs
     

    Kellan Sullivan

    King of Danes said:
    Long live the count of Charolais! Is it a Charles or a Philip? Maybe a John?
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    eliamartin65 said:
    I hope it's a Jean, in honor of John the Fearless.
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    Kellan Sullivan said:
    thank you



    Given that Jean came down with a bad case of knife in the back (from the French king no less), I'm guessing that Charles might not be a fan of the name. Leaving Charles and Philippe. Who knows, maybe he'd go with "Henri" after Henry VI and about five rulers of Brabant*
    King of Danes said:
    “I give you a son and you name him after the man who seeks my brother’s throne?” -Margaret of York
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    *Count of Leuven, Count of Brussels, Landgrave of Brabant, Margrave of Antwerp and Dukes of Lower-Lorraine
    **there's also Henri I "le Grand", Duke of Burgundy, brother of Hugh Capet. Henri II of Burgundy became Henri I, King of France (and father of Philippe I of France). Henri le Grand's namesake grandson, Henri le Daimoiseau, was the father of Henrique, Count of Portugal (in turn father of Portugal's first king, Affonso I***)
    ***given Charles' "royal" ambitions, his meddling in France and his connections to Portugal and England, the name doesn't actually seem as implausible IMO
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    Kellan Sullivan

    I'm curious, not necessarily for the TL, but don't see the point in starting a new thread for this and my objection to the misc. ideas thread is that questions often get overlooked.

    What would happen if Warwick had survived past-Tewkesbury OTL. He doesn't have to make the next decades, but say he manages between 1475-1480 window. What role- if any- would he play in the events of OTL? How would it affect the grants to the dukes of Clarence and Gloucester?
     
    eliamartin65

    eliamartin65

    Kellan Sullivan said:
    What would happen if Warwick had survived past-Tewkesbury OTL. He doesn't have to make the next decades, but say he manages between 1475-1480 window. What role- if any- would he play in the events of OTL? How would it affect the grants to the dukes of Clarence and Gloucester?
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    He'd be in a rough position with King Edward, but perhaps he would NOT object to Anne and Richard marrying if Edward of Westminster still dies young.
     
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