With war coming the near future and of course venizelo's correct prediction back in 1935 iolt will a similar strategy in the smyrna defence life develop in the Thracian chresonesus? I.e a strong fortification in the narrowest part of the peninsula with supplies coming from the sea or air..it could open the sea of Marmara to supply ship to the Soviet Union..of course it also need a similar defensive line near Constantinople like the anastesian wall
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Perhaps... then perhaps not. I'm viewing Kemal as in a position somewhat similar to Venizelos after 1923 here. Very influential but not all too powerful.
No reason not to do so. How much it actually affects things... someone joining Evelpidon school in September 1932 would be normally becoming a second lieutenant in summer 1936. And he would be still a shavetail at the time. Actually putting people either in the Reserve Officer schools or the Non-Coms school would be producing combat ready officers quite earlier... but neither is very practical. The reserve officer schools were taking in conscripts of sufficient academic qualifications, the Non-Com school army regulars who wanted to advance to officer rank.
Note also that Ethiopia in this timeframe had also been sending officers to St Cyr and had Swedish trainers in addition to a number of White Russians and even some Germans and Austrians.
The navy does have 6 modern submarines as of 1932, and training cruiser Athena, the former Helli, can be also used as a minelayer. That said I don't see Greece much influencing the LoN over Ethiopia... but then it already was up in arms against the Italians in OTL. In terms of gun pits if memory serves there were 7 left by 1935, a pair of turrets built around 1933 does not need additional capacity. On the other hand the ship has Vickers 4.7in secondaries... dual purpose ones like the French and Americans were offering.
The visit of future Haile Selassie to Greece is very much historical... Greece was bad enough at the time that Ethiopia actually provided humanitarian help in the form of 2,000 cattle to Greece. And the Greeks were one of the largest migrant communities in Ethiopia since the 19th century, and Haile Selassie had a number of Greek advisors.
Obviously no military sales in OTL 1932 Greece did not have artillery or even rifles to spare...
It's useful hard currency for Greek imports... nothing is scale compared to the little known but rather important arms smuggling to the Spanish republicans a few years later that by all accounts run in the millions with the Greeks both shelling from their own stocks and playing middlemen to... German arms going to the Republicans.
It is happening... there has been one important butterfly so far. To quote part 24
"Hitler had fled only to be arrested a couple days after the collapse of the coup along with several of his followers and put on trial, he would be convicted but in practice his conviction would prove no more than a slap in the wrist. Herman Göring had been luckier as he had managed to escape to Austria only with a light wound."
Fewer loans on a much larger economy and even the ones taken was on quite better terms. For example out of the $186 million mentioned, about ~$120 million are from the 1918 war credits which were on much better terms than what Greece was liable to get in the open market...
The British for reasons not making in retrospect much logical sense were the one insisting in reducing maximum battleship armament in 2nd London to 14in even willingly taking Italian promises to agree to this at face value at the very time Italy had publicly lain down a pair of 15in ships and both the French and Germans were following suit. But there is an obvious difference TTL... the Greek ship for every practical purpose is having a pair of triples with the equivalent of Mark II 16in guns just like the ones the Lions were supposed to sport.
Certainly Kazim and Rauf are not overly happy with him at the moment. On the other hand the army with Fevzi Cakmak is on his back and the CUP will have little trouble backing any policy aimed at the Greeks. Or the Soviets, or the Italians, or the French, or the British... anyone who is thought to hold Turkish territory.
Not certain the Erhardts were taken from the Turks or the Germans/Bulgarians in OTL, they were in service in 1922 for certain. But it makes no sense to keep a separate calibre in service for all of 8 guns. The Schneiders were similarly captured from the Bulgarians either in 1913 or 1918, they still existed but not used in 1935. There is a much larger number of captured Krupp 75mm guns in inventory, 160 field guns along 16 German 75mm mountain guns. The rest of the guns sold had been also captured by the Greeks in OTL, they are listed in the Turkish general staff history as recaptured in Smyrna in 1922.
The 87mm is not used any more by either the Greek or the Turkish army thus I'm not keeping a close count of them. Quite a few were certainly captured during the war, 21 were recaptured by the Turks in Smyrna in OTL but as of 1932 they are of very little practical use when any post 1900 gun has a rate of fire an order of magnitude higher.
Basically the former Turkish artillery recaptured at Smyrna in OTL is the following, the types are my deduction from the descriptions in the book and existing inventory. Almost all of it, not completely obsolescent is sold off to the Ethiopians with the sole exception of sFH13 which along with a few more of them captured TTL are pressed into service and the 240mm which are in coastal defences.
| 240 mm | 7 |
| 120mm gun L30 Bulgarian | 3 |
| 12cm Krupp RK L/24 | 4 |
| 12cm L/11,6 Krupp FHb | 6 |
| 8,7cm L/24 Krupp FK C/80 | 21 |
| 15cm SFH 13 L/14 | 3 |
| 15cm L/10,5cm Krupp sFHb | 13 |
| 15cm Krupp RK L/26 | 8 |
Perhaps then perhaps not. As of 1932 the Greeks expect to mobilize about 200 battalions. These alone would require over 7000 LMGs besides the ones needed for support units.
They considered mortars essential and planned local production from the early 1930s even in OTL. About 100 are actually bought by the end of 1934.
Well. Could I keep Alexander alive? Certainly could, the original plan was was to keep him alive to 1967 at which point he's succeeded by Philip (born ~1925 and I won't mention who he was supposed to marry lest it shock people). Should I? His death is plausible if I may say so, some random events are needed and I'm descended from several generations of die-hard Greek republicans. So why inflict the Glucksburgs on the country?
That would be in direct violation of the peace treaties at the moment. People, including the Soviets, would not be amused...
My thinking was more along the lines that if the gun companies get that much more money, they might keep and extra pit or two open, which would be a major help for the KGV's.
Truer words have never been spoken.So why inflict the Glucksburgs on the country?
My grandfather started voting venizelist in 1923, after he was demobilized in the afternath of the Greco-Turkish War and continue voting venizelist and its various post-ww2 offshoots (Plastiras, Sophocles Venizelos, Papandreou) until his death. Most of his friends who fought in the WW1 and Greco-Turkish War were of the same political inclinations. Of course they hailed from a rabid republican region.
For the non-greek readers, here is a Venizelist song from the WW1 celebrating the National Defence movement.
Translated Lyrics
The lads, the new triumvirate
who kicked out all the brutes from Athens
who kicked out kings and MPs
the crooks and the clowns
And in the Defence over there,
they fight all together
Venizelos is fighting as well,
he who is going to end it
Daglis and Kountouriotis will bring us equality
The Virgin Mary who is standing on our side,
shows the path to our new general
The hero of the National Defence
who is fighting and is repelling the enemy
The Defence lads, kicked out the king
and gave him is underpants to go find job
To gorge himself
along with his foreign family.
Watch the swords and scimitars,
aflame with flames which reach the heavens
Up there, at our border
The enemy's blood is running like a river
The lads of the Defence got rid of the king,
Defence's hat brought Venizelos
Defence's cap Lefterakis (diminutive of Eleftherios)
That was the WW1 music break. Now back to battleship speculation!
Nah. That is the sanitized, relatively recent version.
THAT is the original
There are certain erm notable differences that show attitudes on the Venizelist side at the time
Modern version:
The Virgin Mary who is standing on our side,
shows the path to our new general
The hero of the National Defence
who is fighting and is repelling the enemy
The Defence lads, kicked out the king
and gave him is underpants to go to his job
To go gorge himself with his foreign family.
Watch the swords and scimitars,
aflame with flames which reach the heavens
Up there, at our border
The enemy's blood is running like a river
Original version:
So lads of our Hellenic army,
show the path to our new general
The hero of the National Defence
who is fighting against the Germans
The Defence lads, kicked out the king
and gave him is underpants to go to his job
To go to Germany, (for the Germans) to make him a sergeant
Watch the swords and scimitars,
and several Bulgarian heads
Up there, up there at Skra
where they fight against the German
Leaving aside the rather more bloodthirsty clearly anti-German/anti-Bulgarian tone one notes a couple of pretty important differences. First the common soldiers are showing the path to their general. And then Consstantine is told to go to Germany, where the Germans can make him... a sergeant. Which says everything about the opinion of half the country on Constantine. For the other half Venizelos was the Satan, the Senegaleze etc.
The Senegaleze goat is a good one!
By the way, I had read somewhere that Constantine considered his cognomen "Duvar Pasha" (Brickwall Pasha) as a honorific. He thought that the common soldier was referring to his steadfast, unbreakable will. Of course by brickwall they considered him thick as brick.
Part 38 Not raining yet...
Teheran, January 1933
The border treaty between Iran and Turkey was the final aftermath of the Kurdish rebellion in Turkey. When Kemal had come to power in March 1932 the rebellion was already waning down under constant Turkish pressure despite the smuggling of arms to the rebels though French Turkey. For Kemal it looked like a way to gain an easy victory and in the summer of 1932 50,000 Turkish troops under Fahrettin pasha, supported by the officially non existent Turkish air force had dealt the rebellion a crushing blow. The remaining rebels had retreated through the Lesser Ararat into Iran with the Turks in pursuit resulting in some skirmishes with Iranian troops, as the border was not well defined in the area. Kemal had quickly stepped it offering the Iranians a border treaty that left the entirety of Lesser Ararat to Turkey in exchange for some minor border adjustments elsewhere. The Iranians, even though they had given refuge to the rebels had quickly agreed.
Germany, January 1933
Franz von Papen thought that by convincing president Hindenburg to accept a coalition government under Adolf Hitler with himself as vice chancellor he was going to be for every practical purpose the power behind the throne. It would take no more than two months for the level of folly this represented with new elections held in March and easily won by the simple expedient of widespread violence against the Nazi's political opponents and legalized repression on the pretext of a false flag terror attack against the Reichstag. By the end on March an "enabling act" had given Hitler the right to pass laws by decree. And that was the end of German democracy.
In Athens and Sivas two different men were taking careful note of the events in Germany. Neither Venizelos or Kemal thought particularly well of the new chancellor, in Kemal's case despite the hero's worship extended to him. But a new nationalist Germany was a possible source of troubles for the former and of opportunities for the latter.
Turkey, March 1933
The first year from Mustafa Kemal's return to power was a matter of celebration, after all the government decreed as much. Kemal could actually show quite a bit of work in that year besides crushing the Kurdish revolt. A five year economic development plan, modelled after the Soviet ones was introduced, its emphasis on expanding Turkey's rather limited industry and autarcy, the country's external balance of payments had heavily suffered under the world economic crisis. The Ankara-Kayseri and Sivas-Samsun railroads had been put in operation, of course their construction had start several years before, but still had been completed on his watch. The metric system had been introduced in February and new penal and civil law codes were being prepared.
In education the civil servants school had been moved to Sivas from Constantinople and upgraded to a school of political science. The same had been done with the engineers school and the two schools had formed the university of Anatolia, the second of its kind in Turkey along with the Istanbul university. The official introduction of the Turkish history thesis claiming the Hittites as ancient Turks, that the Turks had common Aryan ancestry with Central Europeans and civilization had begun with Turks in Central Asia had been rather less positive but was perhaps to be expected. Shortly afterwards it would be expanded to claims that all languages derived from Turkish.
Kalambaka, Thessaly Greece, July 1933
Here, near Meteora and the mountains the summer weather was somewhat better than the sweltering heat of the Thessalian plains in the summer. Still Venizelos would not have minded to avoid being there if he could had avoided it. But the occasion was significant as he inaugurated the latest addition to the Greek railroad network the 83km line between Larissa and Kalambaka. Here it had connected to the Kalambaka-Veroia railroad inaugurated back in 1927. Preliminary work was already underway to extend the railroad over the Metsovon pass in the Pindus mountains to Ioannina and from Ioannina to the port town of Agioi Saranda (Albanian Sarande) and Argyrokastron (Albanian Gjrokaster) in Epirus. The Kalambaka-Ioannina part of the line while only 105km long due to the difficult terrain was expected to cost a full 4 million British pounds to complete. But when it did it would provide a rail connection between Epirus and the rest of Greece for the first time since its liberation two decades earlier. The economic benefits and military benefits were worth the effort and Epirus had actually been last in the Hellenic State Railroads expansion since 1920. The line from Smyrna to Pergamos and from there Kydonies and Andrammytion in Asiatic Greece and a coastal line from Thessaloniki to Kavala had been completed under Stratos in 1930 and 1932, the latter also militarily important as the existing railroad network from Thessaloniki to Thrace was perilously close to the Bulgarian border. And back in May the line between Alexandroupolis and Silivria in Thrace had finally been put to operation cutting travel time to Constantinople by several hours.
Iraq, August 1933
Iraq's independence the previous year had led to Assyrian requests for autonomy, which had been promised by the British in the past. The Iraqi government, with British complicity, had ignored the demands. In June the Assyrian patriarch had been arrested in Baghdad, where he had been invited for negotiations and in July armed clashes between Assyrian civilians who had tried to flee to Syria but refused entry there by French authorities and Iraqi troops had erupted. Despite overwhelming Iraqi superiority in firepower the Assyrians had actually inflicted heavier casualties than they had taken. But the clashes had given the government an excuse to intensify propaganda and agitation against the Assyrian and the Iraqi army was ordered north to crush the ostensible Assyrian revolt. Over 5,000 Assyrians would be massacred by the Iraqi army and Kurdish and Iraqi irregulars, with crown prince Ghazi actually decorating the troops that had participated in the massacres and the Muslim population of Mosul giving them an enthusiastic welcome. The Assyrian population was not going to forget any time soon.
United States, August 1933
Selection of the new US army service rifle had proven a torturous procedure that had taken nearly a decade. The initial favourite, the Pedersen T1 rifle had come close to adoption, only to be clearly outmatched by the Garand T3E2 rifle in trials run in 1931. It would seem that selection of the latter was obvious after that and actually in January 1932 this had been recommended by the selection committee. Instead the T3E2 had faced a strong contender, in its own self, the T1E1 a variant using the standard .30 army calibre instead of Pedersen's .276 calibre and thus expected to be cheaper. Then Pedersen, who had an obvious interest in his cartridge being adopted, even if his rifle had failed to do so had entered the fray. It hadn't been difficult for someone of Pedersen's technical abilities to realise that the arguments over taking advantage of existing ammunition stocks had a simple flaw, the existing ammunition could not be used with T1E1 even though it was the same calibre. Lobbying by Pedersen had managed to delay the decision in February 1932 and then have a new set of trials 6 months later, using existing ammunition for the T1E1 with army chief of staff Douglas MacArthur personally involving himself in the trials. As expected by Pedersen T1E1 had failed the trials with old ammunition while MacArthur had been favourably impressed by the lighter T3E2. With the new Roosevelt administration relatively more willing to spend money the decision had been taken to standardize on the T3E2 in .276.
Italy, October 1933
Following the laying down of both a French and a Greek battleship the previous year, the Italian government was under increasing pressure to react. Delays had occurred as a world disarmament conference had begun in Geneva and bilateral talks between France and Italy after their failure in 1931, when Italy had demanded parity in light ships to accept reduced battleship sizes, had resumed with British meditation. But the disarmament conference had collapsed after Germany had demanded "equality of armaments" and the demand had been echoed by Turkey, Bulgaria and Hungary, only for it to be denied as it would mean abrogating the military terms of the peace treaties ending the Great war at which point Germany had been the first to leave the conference. The bilateral talks had shown some promise but had collapsed already from December 1932 [1].
The French had proposed limiting each side to building one 26,500t battleship, 30,000t of light ships and 8,000t of submarines till the end of 1936, with the added clarification it involved newly laid down ships, not ships already under construction. But this was completely unacceptable as it would leave Italy at parity with Greece, a 2 to 1 disadvantage to France and facing a 3 to 1 ratio in modern ships against their combination.
France, having to deal already with three German pocket battleships under construction and in anticipation that Italy would be building at least one Italian battleship, Mussolini had mentioned to the French ambassador that he was going to leave his navy inferior to the Greeks of all people had then added a second Dunkerque class ship in the 1933 budget. Italy had waited till now. It had waited only to announce somewhat to the French shock the construction of two 35,000t battleships with 16in guns, the maximum allowed by the treaties. The Italian admiralty was more than happy with the Duce accepting their arguments for fully sized battleships. It worried somewhat more at the calibre of the guns for technical reasons, Italy had experience with 15in weapons but not 16in ones and the larger guns mean either a slower or a less well protected ship. But Mussolini had made it clear that he would not accept lesser guns to the Greeks and that had been the end of the argument...
[1] That's a year ahead of OTL as there is more pressure on Italy to act.
The border treaty between Iran and Turkey was the final aftermath of the Kurdish rebellion in Turkey. When Kemal had come to power in March 1932 the rebellion was already waning down under constant Turkish pressure despite the smuggling of arms to the rebels though French Turkey. For Kemal it looked like a way to gain an easy victory and in the summer of 1932 50,000 Turkish troops under Fahrettin pasha, supported by the officially non existent Turkish air force had dealt the rebellion a crushing blow. The remaining rebels had retreated through the Lesser Ararat into Iran with the Turks in pursuit resulting in some skirmishes with Iranian troops, as the border was not well defined in the area. Kemal had quickly stepped it offering the Iranians a border treaty that left the entirety of Lesser Ararat to Turkey in exchange for some minor border adjustments elsewhere. The Iranians, even though they had given refuge to the rebels had quickly agreed.
Germany, January 1933
Franz von Papen thought that by convincing president Hindenburg to accept a coalition government under Adolf Hitler with himself as vice chancellor he was going to be for every practical purpose the power behind the throne. It would take no more than two months for the level of folly this represented with new elections held in March and easily won by the simple expedient of widespread violence against the Nazi's political opponents and legalized repression on the pretext of a false flag terror attack against the Reichstag. By the end on March an "enabling act" had given Hitler the right to pass laws by decree. And that was the end of German democracy.
In Athens and Sivas two different men were taking careful note of the events in Germany. Neither Venizelos or Kemal thought particularly well of the new chancellor, in Kemal's case despite the hero's worship extended to him. But a new nationalist Germany was a possible source of troubles for the former and of opportunities for the latter.
Turkey, March 1933
The first year from Mustafa Kemal's return to power was a matter of celebration, after all the government decreed as much. Kemal could actually show quite a bit of work in that year besides crushing the Kurdish revolt. A five year economic development plan, modelled after the Soviet ones was introduced, its emphasis on expanding Turkey's rather limited industry and autarcy, the country's external balance of payments had heavily suffered under the world economic crisis. The Ankara-Kayseri and Sivas-Samsun railroads had been put in operation, of course their construction had start several years before, but still had been completed on his watch. The metric system had been introduced in February and new penal and civil law codes were being prepared.
In education the civil servants school had been moved to Sivas from Constantinople and upgraded to a school of political science. The same had been done with the engineers school and the two schools had formed the university of Anatolia, the second of its kind in Turkey along with the Istanbul university. The official introduction of the Turkish history thesis claiming the Hittites as ancient Turks, that the Turks had common Aryan ancestry with Central Europeans and civilization had begun with Turks in Central Asia had been rather less positive but was perhaps to be expected. Shortly afterwards it would be expanded to claims that all languages derived from Turkish.
Kalambaka, Thessaly Greece, July 1933
Here, near Meteora and the mountains the summer weather was somewhat better than the sweltering heat of the Thessalian plains in the summer. Still Venizelos would not have minded to avoid being there if he could had avoided it. But the occasion was significant as he inaugurated the latest addition to the Greek railroad network the 83km line between Larissa and Kalambaka. Here it had connected to the Kalambaka-Veroia railroad inaugurated back in 1927. Preliminary work was already underway to extend the railroad over the Metsovon pass in the Pindus mountains to Ioannina and from Ioannina to the port town of Agioi Saranda (Albanian Sarande) and Argyrokastron (Albanian Gjrokaster) in Epirus. The Kalambaka-Ioannina part of the line while only 105km long due to the difficult terrain was expected to cost a full 4 million British pounds to complete. But when it did it would provide a rail connection between Epirus and the rest of Greece for the first time since its liberation two decades earlier. The economic benefits and military benefits were worth the effort and Epirus had actually been last in the Hellenic State Railroads expansion since 1920. The line from Smyrna to Pergamos and from there Kydonies and Andrammytion in Asiatic Greece and a coastal line from Thessaloniki to Kavala had been completed under Stratos in 1930 and 1932, the latter also militarily important as the existing railroad network from Thessaloniki to Thrace was perilously close to the Bulgarian border. And back in May the line between Alexandroupolis and Silivria in Thrace had finally been put to operation cutting travel time to Constantinople by several hours.
Iraq, August 1933
Iraq's independence the previous year had led to Assyrian requests for autonomy, which had been promised by the British in the past. The Iraqi government, with British complicity, had ignored the demands. In June the Assyrian patriarch had been arrested in Baghdad, where he had been invited for negotiations and in July armed clashes between Assyrian civilians who had tried to flee to Syria but refused entry there by French authorities and Iraqi troops had erupted. Despite overwhelming Iraqi superiority in firepower the Assyrians had actually inflicted heavier casualties than they had taken. But the clashes had given the government an excuse to intensify propaganda and agitation against the Assyrian and the Iraqi army was ordered north to crush the ostensible Assyrian revolt. Over 5,000 Assyrians would be massacred by the Iraqi army and Kurdish and Iraqi irregulars, with crown prince Ghazi actually decorating the troops that had participated in the massacres and the Muslim population of Mosul giving them an enthusiastic welcome. The Assyrian population was not going to forget any time soon.
United States, August 1933
Selection of the new US army service rifle had proven a torturous procedure that had taken nearly a decade. The initial favourite, the Pedersen T1 rifle had come close to adoption, only to be clearly outmatched by the Garand T3E2 rifle in trials run in 1931. It would seem that selection of the latter was obvious after that and actually in January 1932 this had been recommended by the selection committee. Instead the T3E2 had faced a strong contender, in its own self, the T1E1 a variant using the standard .30 army calibre instead of Pedersen's .276 calibre and thus expected to be cheaper. Then Pedersen, who had an obvious interest in his cartridge being adopted, even if his rifle had failed to do so had entered the fray. It hadn't been difficult for someone of Pedersen's technical abilities to realise that the arguments over taking advantage of existing ammunition stocks had a simple flaw, the existing ammunition could not be used with T1E1 even though it was the same calibre. Lobbying by Pedersen had managed to delay the decision in February 1932 and then have a new set of trials 6 months later, using existing ammunition for the T1E1 with army chief of staff Douglas MacArthur personally involving himself in the trials. As expected by Pedersen T1E1 had failed the trials with old ammunition while MacArthur had been favourably impressed by the lighter T3E2. With the new Roosevelt administration relatively more willing to spend money the decision had been taken to standardize on the T3E2 in .276.
Italy, October 1933
Following the laying down of both a French and a Greek battleship the previous year, the Italian government was under increasing pressure to react. Delays had occurred as a world disarmament conference had begun in Geneva and bilateral talks between France and Italy after their failure in 1931, when Italy had demanded parity in light ships to accept reduced battleship sizes, had resumed with British meditation. But the disarmament conference had collapsed after Germany had demanded "equality of armaments" and the demand had been echoed by Turkey, Bulgaria and Hungary, only for it to be denied as it would mean abrogating the military terms of the peace treaties ending the Great war at which point Germany had been the first to leave the conference. The bilateral talks had shown some promise but had collapsed already from December 1932 [1].
The French had proposed limiting each side to building one 26,500t battleship, 30,000t of light ships and 8,000t of submarines till the end of 1936, with the added clarification it involved newly laid down ships, not ships already under construction. But this was completely unacceptable as it would leave Italy at parity with Greece, a 2 to 1 disadvantage to France and facing a 3 to 1 ratio in modern ships against their combination.
France, having to deal already with three German pocket battleships under construction and in anticipation that Italy would be building at least one Italian battleship, Mussolini had mentioned to the French ambassador that he was going to leave his navy inferior to the Greeks of all people had then added a second Dunkerque class ship in the 1933 budget. Italy had waited till now. It had waited only to announce somewhat to the French shock the construction of two 35,000t battleships with 16in guns, the maximum allowed by the treaties. The Italian admiralty was more than happy with the Duce accepting their arguments for fully sized battleships. It worried somewhat more at the calibre of the guns for technical reasons, Italy had experience with 15in weapons but not 16in ones and the larger guns mean either a slower or a less well protected ship. But Mussolini had made it clear that he would not accept lesser guns to the Greeks and that had been the end of the argument...
[1] That's a year ahead of OTL as there is more pressure on Italy to act.
So, there is a Railroad Revolution in Greece! Most of the lines mentioned have not been built even today IOTL! The economic and military benefits are going to be huge. Are we going to see faster building of Metro system in Athens too? Perhaps also maintenance and expansion of the Tram networks in Athens, Thessalonica and Smyrna?
Concerning the international situation, I have a feeling that TTL WWII will start earlier...
Concerning the international situation, I have a feeling that TTL WWII will start earlier...
I was actualy expecting for an accident to happen and good ol' MacArthur to find a tragic demise.
edit for for most of the board's thinking
I was actualy
No comments on 2nd London. Truth to tell I never understood the British persistence on reducing armament to 14in when both Italy and France had already laid down 15in gunned ships and anyone with eyes to see, expected the Japanese not the accept any reduction either.
The plans were there in OTL, I've actually used the costs and distances detailed in publications of the Technical Chamber of Greece, with the exception of the Alexandroupoli-Silivria line and the single line in Ionia. Overall cost is ~13 million pounds, half of that for the Epirus line. OTL Greece spent 80 on resettling its refugees...
A minor thing left unmentioned is that the trials have been conveniently placed after the Bonus army dispersal. It wouldn't do for MacArthur's publicity to start having articles that he chose the inferior weapon, which failed trials on spurious economic grounds when the likes of Drew Pearson are waiting for him around the corner...
Given the alluded level of potential collaboration with the Axis powers, I worry for the knock-on effects on Turkish culture - the need to appease Nazi Germany certainly impacted the tint of Mussolini's regime, and I can certainly see it doing the same with Ataturk's. I wonder if his interest in the continent of Mu will snake its way into the education system?
National pseudohistory really is something else.
Quite unfortunate to see the Iraqi Assyrian massacres happening relatively as per OTL, but to be expected. Unsure whether that last sentence implies they will be able to catch a break, or that something worse looms in the future. Could go either way in the event Turkey ends up militarily involved in the Allied possessions in the Near East ITTL, seeing as the main places of Assyrian inhabitation overlap both with the Turkmeneli and Kurdistan.
When is the next greek census?will the growth be similar to otl or will the ttl stability and greater economy fuel a greater growth rate?
The Turkish History thesis is very much OTL of course as was making it part of the school curriculum. But then what is usually forgotten that Kemal's regime back in the 1920s and 1930s was being compared with fascist Italy. Which comparison rapidly went out of fashion after WW2...
No comment either way...
Why in 1940. The previous one was in 1930.
Part 39 ...but rain is coming
Athens, January 1934
Nikos Zachariadis had been de facto leading the Greek communist party since late 1931 when Comintern had installed him in leadership of the party in hopes of ending the factional strife of the previous years. Now the 6th party congress officially made him general secretary of the party. So far the party had had a difficult 15 years since its creation in November 1919. It had kept hovering between legality and illegality while it struggled with itself, Zachariadis was the tenth general secretary, of the previous 9 only one Andronikos Haitas was still a party member, the other 8 had all been expelled from it, one of them for embezzling the funds provided by Comintern for the party. The party position following the Comintern line in favour of autonomy of Macedonia and Thrace, calling the Asia Minor war a "Greek imperialist venture" and supporting Soviet participation in the League of Nations presence in Constantinople, hardly helped party prospects either. Still under Zachariadis the party had managed to secure an all time high of 4.97% of the vote in the recent 1932 elections, increasing its senators to 3 from a single one in 1928 and managing for the first time to elect 1 member in the parliament as well. It remained to be seen whether Zachariadis would manage to much improve things.
Sofia, February 1934
Mustafa Kemal had been last time to Sofia, as Ottoman military attaché. Now he was here as the first Turkish prime minister, the position of grand vizier had been abolished to be replaced with that of prime minister back in December, making the first official visit by a Turkish head of government to Bulgaria since the country had been liberated from the Ottoman yoke. His goal was simple. Since the end of the war Greece, Yugoslavia and Romania had remained allied, formalizing their alliance by treaty in July 1922. Neither Turkey, nor Bulgaria or Hungary could deal with the alliance of all three countries on its own, even Italy would have second thoughts particularly given French support for the Balkan Entente. Following delivery of Fatih last year he had been tempted to consider a war with Greece, only to decide that the risk was too high as long as thanks to their allies the Greeks would be able to concentrate nearly their whole army in Anatolia, if his navy failed to defeat the Greeks which given the size of their navy was hardly a given even with Fatih. But if the Greeks, Yugoslavs and Romanians work in concert so could their enemies. Which had brought him here to meet king Boris and prime minister Nikola Mushanov... as well as Hungarian prime minister Gyula Gömbös and even king Zog of Albania. It should not be difficult to convince them to create a pact of their own. And let Mussolini think it was his idea and he would be able to manipulate the pact as he saw fit...
Dublin, March 1934
The Irish constitutional act removing the oath of allegiance to the British monarch and making official Ireland's Gaelic name of Eire passed the parliament voted by both Collins Sinn Fein and De Valera's Fiana Fail. It was just the latest in the intricate balancing act Collins had had to play in the past dozen years. Sinn Fein had won the the 1927 elections with 44.1% of the vote to 29.8% of Fianna Fail. The 1932 election thanks to world economic crisis had proven a more closer affair, but Collins had openly supported abolishing the Oath of allegiance and reducing the powers of the Governor-General and the Senate making them effectively non issues in the campaign, coming ahead with 40.6% and 68 seats to 39.1% and 61 seats. Collins had stayed in power in an uneasy coalition with various independents and the Labour and farmers parties but with no absolute majority new elections had been held in 1933. These, thanks to Collins managing to secure Frank MacDermot's support had returned Sinn Fein with 47.9% and 82 seats to 41.5% and 54 seats. Now as tensions in Europe were starting to rise again it was up to him to deal with Britain over the treaty ports and North Ireland.
Vienna, July 1934
The Nazi coup against the Austrian government had proven at least premature as it had been crushed by Austrian security forces and Italy had threatens military intervention if Germany moved into Austria. Hitler had backed down before his fellow dictator, after he had been arguing for the past dozen years for an alliance with Italy. In Rome Mussolini had reason to be satisfied from his Austrian success. For the immediate future his northern front was secure, allowing him to act elsewhere, while with his improved anti-German credentials he could likely get concessions from the French and British elsewhere. Then... then Italy could also play the Germans against the French when the time came as he had tried back in 1932 when he had come close to starting a war against France and her allies in the Balkans only to be dissuaded by information the French secret services had uncovered the plan. No matter how strong France and Britain looked they were decaying powers unlike Italy...
Constantinople, August 1934
Soldiers from the French, British, Italian and Greek units in the queen of Cities presented arms to the outgoing Allied high commissioner for the last time as Aristeides Stergiadis boarded the ship that would take him to Piraeous. Stergiadis had remained the uncrowned king of Constantinople for the last dozen years. In these he had managed to maintain order, improve city infrastructure, advance health and education, the Patriarchic University of Constantinople established from the Megali tou Genous Scholi back in 1930 in the face of Italian and Turkish attempts to sabotage it had been undeniable proof to this end. But it had been a thankless job. The Turks hated him for being Greek and advancing the Greek effort to unite Constantinople with Greece, which he was of course doing. The Greeks and Armenians hated him for strictly enforcing the rights of the Turkish population, the average nationalist could not get through his skull that anything different undermined the Greek cause. And the large foreign community in the city, reinforced by tens of thousands of White Russian refugees, hated him on general principle for enforcing law and order for everyone and not allowing them to do as they pleased with the support of their consuls. But now Italian pressure, taking advantage from European tensions, had finally persuaded the British and French to agree to his replacement. A setback for Greek diplomacy, at least Venizelos had adamantly refused calls in parliament that Greece should move into Constantinople. The time for that had not come yet...
Britain, September 1934
The British army confirmed the adoption of the Vickers-Pedersen semi-automatic rifle and the Czech ZBG-33 light machine gun both in the new American 7x51 calibre for its own use. Adoption of the new calibre by the Americans two years earlier had certainly been a strong factor in British acceptance of the same as it was likely to bring considerable advantages if it ever came to a new war. Still it had been a close affair, as there had been strong pressure to use the money either for the construction of additional cruisers or of a second aircraft carrier similar to the one approved for the navy, only prime minister's Ramsay MacDonald's reluctance to further fuel the naval race that appeared to be brewing worldwide had stopped this from happening. [1]
Spain, October 1934
Seven years of war in the Rif and over 20,000 deaths had taken their toll on Spanish politics. The monarchy had been abolished in 1931. The next year an abortive coup in support of the monarchy had led to the execution of general Sanjuro and the imprisonment of several officers that had supported him leading to even higher tensions. When elections had come in November 1933 despite a victory of a coalition of the right wing parties, it had taken nearly a year for 3 right ministers to be now accepted into a coalition government as the left refused to give up power. Even that was not taken well. A general strike was proclaimed and Asturias and Catalonia outright revolted in October 5th. The new defence minister Diego Hidalgo would turn to generals Francisco Franco and Manuel Goded Llopis to suppress the revolt, only to receive a demand for the release and reinstatement of the officers held in prison since Sanjuro's coup as the cost of the army's support. As people in Madrid bickered the rebels in Asturias and Catalonia had time to organize themselves, mobilizing over 30,000 men in Asturias alone by October 15th...
Piraeus, October 14th 1934
The Balkan Entente conference, had been decided back in September following events in the Balkans and elsewhere. The meeting in Sofia between Turkey, Bulgaria, Hungary and Albania back in February had been impossible to go unnoticed, despite claims that its aims were purely defensive. Then a coup had taken place in May in Bulgaria and for a time the Yugoslavs had hopped that the new government under Kimon Georgiev might take a friendlier line towards Yugoslavia there was even talk of a visit by king Alexander to Sofia. But king Boris had then removed Georgiev from power for his own reasons and the Bulgarian government had resumed its anti-Entente stance, the four power pact had been signed with the blessings of Italy back in September. Worse, given an increasingly assertive Germany France was starting to make concessions to Italy, hardly an acceptable situation from the Balkan capitals viewpoint as they feared the concessions would be coming at their own expense. Which was bringing to Piraeus king Alexander of Yugoslavia, prime minister Gheorghe Tatarescu of Romania and even the French foreign minister Louis Barthou, maintaining the Little and Balkan Ententes was central to French foreign policy after all and Paris wanted to keep its minor allies re-assured.
The foreign dignitaries were welcomed by an enthusiastic crown, as an open car motorcade moved to King George avenue to take them to Athens when the shots started ringing. Venizelos, not for the first time target to assassination attempts, jumped down immediately bringing down Alexander who stood by him along as his own Cretan bodyguards and policemen returned fire, killing the assassin instantly. King Alexander would survive the assassination attempt with a shoulder would, from being tripped by Venizelos it would be said later, perhaps with a dose of exaggeration. Venizelos and Tatarescu would come out unscathed. Barthou would not be so lucky dying during the firefight. The assassin would prove to be a Vlado Chernozemski a Bulgarian IMRO member working together with the Croatian Ustase. Italian involvement at the assassination attempt would not be officially confirmed by either the Greeks or Yugoslavs, after behind the scenes pressure by France and Britain not to do so...
Sivas, November 1934
Earlier in the year Mustafa Kemal had avoided the temptation to start a war with Greece. Now he signed the agreement for Turkey to buy two submarines that Portugal had ordered in Italy but had failed to pay. Back in September Turkey had also quietly bought submarine E1 built by the Germans in Spain, despite the trouble currently underway in Spain the boat was already on its way to Turkey. For the first time Turkey was in direct open breach of the treaty of Chantilly...
[1] Back in 1924 Lloyd George remaining in power had not reduced navy appropriations from 10 to 7 cruisers TTL. So with the RN having the same numbers with OTL there are about 4-5 million poinds in the budget to finance a rifle along with the new LMG now that the Americans have also chosen the new calibre.
Nikos Zachariadis had been de facto leading the Greek communist party since late 1931 when Comintern had installed him in leadership of the party in hopes of ending the factional strife of the previous years. Now the 6th party congress officially made him general secretary of the party. So far the party had had a difficult 15 years since its creation in November 1919. It had kept hovering between legality and illegality while it struggled with itself, Zachariadis was the tenth general secretary, of the previous 9 only one Andronikos Haitas was still a party member, the other 8 had all been expelled from it, one of them for embezzling the funds provided by Comintern for the party. The party position following the Comintern line in favour of autonomy of Macedonia and Thrace, calling the Asia Minor war a "Greek imperialist venture" and supporting Soviet participation in the League of Nations presence in Constantinople, hardly helped party prospects either. Still under Zachariadis the party had managed to secure an all time high of 4.97% of the vote in the recent 1932 elections, increasing its senators to 3 from a single one in 1928 and managing for the first time to elect 1 member in the parliament as well. It remained to be seen whether Zachariadis would manage to much improve things.
Sofia, February 1934
Mustafa Kemal had been last time to Sofia, as Ottoman military attaché. Now he was here as the first Turkish prime minister, the position of grand vizier had been abolished to be replaced with that of prime minister back in December, making the first official visit by a Turkish head of government to Bulgaria since the country had been liberated from the Ottoman yoke. His goal was simple. Since the end of the war Greece, Yugoslavia and Romania had remained allied, formalizing their alliance by treaty in July 1922. Neither Turkey, nor Bulgaria or Hungary could deal with the alliance of all three countries on its own, even Italy would have second thoughts particularly given French support for the Balkan Entente. Following delivery of Fatih last year he had been tempted to consider a war with Greece, only to decide that the risk was too high as long as thanks to their allies the Greeks would be able to concentrate nearly their whole army in Anatolia, if his navy failed to defeat the Greeks which given the size of their navy was hardly a given even with Fatih. But if the Greeks, Yugoslavs and Romanians work in concert so could their enemies. Which had brought him here to meet king Boris and prime minister Nikola Mushanov... as well as Hungarian prime minister Gyula Gömbös and even king Zog of Albania. It should not be difficult to convince them to create a pact of their own. And let Mussolini think it was his idea and he would be able to manipulate the pact as he saw fit...
Dublin, March 1934
The Irish constitutional act removing the oath of allegiance to the British monarch and making official Ireland's Gaelic name of Eire passed the parliament voted by both Collins Sinn Fein and De Valera's Fiana Fail. It was just the latest in the intricate balancing act Collins had had to play in the past dozen years. Sinn Fein had won the the 1927 elections with 44.1% of the vote to 29.8% of Fianna Fail. The 1932 election thanks to world economic crisis had proven a more closer affair, but Collins had openly supported abolishing the Oath of allegiance and reducing the powers of the Governor-General and the Senate making them effectively non issues in the campaign, coming ahead with 40.6% and 68 seats to 39.1% and 61 seats. Collins had stayed in power in an uneasy coalition with various independents and the Labour and farmers parties but with no absolute majority new elections had been held in 1933. These, thanks to Collins managing to secure Frank MacDermot's support had returned Sinn Fein with 47.9% and 82 seats to 41.5% and 54 seats. Now as tensions in Europe were starting to rise again it was up to him to deal with Britain over the treaty ports and North Ireland.
Vienna, July 1934
The Nazi coup against the Austrian government had proven at least premature as it had been crushed by Austrian security forces and Italy had threatens military intervention if Germany moved into Austria. Hitler had backed down before his fellow dictator, after he had been arguing for the past dozen years for an alliance with Italy. In Rome Mussolini had reason to be satisfied from his Austrian success. For the immediate future his northern front was secure, allowing him to act elsewhere, while with his improved anti-German credentials he could likely get concessions from the French and British elsewhere. Then... then Italy could also play the Germans against the French when the time came as he had tried back in 1932 when he had come close to starting a war against France and her allies in the Balkans only to be dissuaded by information the French secret services had uncovered the plan. No matter how strong France and Britain looked they were decaying powers unlike Italy...
Constantinople, August 1934
Soldiers from the French, British, Italian and Greek units in the queen of Cities presented arms to the outgoing Allied high commissioner for the last time as Aristeides Stergiadis boarded the ship that would take him to Piraeous. Stergiadis had remained the uncrowned king of Constantinople for the last dozen years. In these he had managed to maintain order, improve city infrastructure, advance health and education, the Patriarchic University of Constantinople established from the Megali tou Genous Scholi back in 1930 in the face of Italian and Turkish attempts to sabotage it had been undeniable proof to this end. But it had been a thankless job. The Turks hated him for being Greek and advancing the Greek effort to unite Constantinople with Greece, which he was of course doing. The Greeks and Armenians hated him for strictly enforcing the rights of the Turkish population, the average nationalist could not get through his skull that anything different undermined the Greek cause. And the large foreign community in the city, reinforced by tens of thousands of White Russian refugees, hated him on general principle for enforcing law and order for everyone and not allowing them to do as they pleased with the support of their consuls. But now Italian pressure, taking advantage from European tensions, had finally persuaded the British and French to agree to his replacement. A setback for Greek diplomacy, at least Venizelos had adamantly refused calls in parliament that Greece should move into Constantinople. The time for that had not come yet...
Britain, September 1934
The British army confirmed the adoption of the Vickers-Pedersen semi-automatic rifle and the Czech ZBG-33 light machine gun both in the new American 7x51 calibre for its own use. Adoption of the new calibre by the Americans two years earlier had certainly been a strong factor in British acceptance of the same as it was likely to bring considerable advantages if it ever came to a new war. Still it had been a close affair, as there had been strong pressure to use the money either for the construction of additional cruisers or of a second aircraft carrier similar to the one approved for the navy, only prime minister's Ramsay MacDonald's reluctance to further fuel the naval race that appeared to be brewing worldwide had stopped this from happening. [1]
Spain, October 1934
Seven years of war in the Rif and over 20,000 deaths had taken their toll on Spanish politics. The monarchy had been abolished in 1931. The next year an abortive coup in support of the monarchy had led to the execution of general Sanjuro and the imprisonment of several officers that had supported him leading to even higher tensions. When elections had come in November 1933 despite a victory of a coalition of the right wing parties, it had taken nearly a year for 3 right ministers to be now accepted into a coalition government as the left refused to give up power. Even that was not taken well. A general strike was proclaimed and Asturias and Catalonia outright revolted in October 5th. The new defence minister Diego Hidalgo would turn to generals Francisco Franco and Manuel Goded Llopis to suppress the revolt, only to receive a demand for the release and reinstatement of the officers held in prison since Sanjuro's coup as the cost of the army's support. As people in Madrid bickered the rebels in Asturias and Catalonia had time to organize themselves, mobilizing over 30,000 men in Asturias alone by October 15th...
Piraeus, October 14th 1934
The Balkan Entente conference, had been decided back in September following events in the Balkans and elsewhere. The meeting in Sofia between Turkey, Bulgaria, Hungary and Albania back in February had been impossible to go unnoticed, despite claims that its aims were purely defensive. Then a coup had taken place in May in Bulgaria and for a time the Yugoslavs had hopped that the new government under Kimon Georgiev might take a friendlier line towards Yugoslavia there was even talk of a visit by king Alexander to Sofia. But king Boris had then removed Georgiev from power for his own reasons and the Bulgarian government had resumed its anti-Entente stance, the four power pact had been signed with the blessings of Italy back in September. Worse, given an increasingly assertive Germany France was starting to make concessions to Italy, hardly an acceptable situation from the Balkan capitals viewpoint as they feared the concessions would be coming at their own expense. Which was bringing to Piraeus king Alexander of Yugoslavia, prime minister Gheorghe Tatarescu of Romania and even the French foreign minister Louis Barthou, maintaining the Little and Balkan Ententes was central to French foreign policy after all and Paris wanted to keep its minor allies re-assured.
The foreign dignitaries were welcomed by an enthusiastic crown, as an open car motorcade moved to King George avenue to take them to Athens when the shots started ringing. Venizelos, not for the first time target to assassination attempts, jumped down immediately bringing down Alexander who stood by him along as his own Cretan bodyguards and policemen returned fire, killing the assassin instantly. King Alexander would survive the assassination attempt with a shoulder would, from being tripped by Venizelos it would be said later, perhaps with a dose of exaggeration. Venizelos and Tatarescu would come out unscathed. Barthou would not be so lucky dying during the firefight. The assassin would prove to be a Vlado Chernozemski a Bulgarian IMRO member working together with the Croatian Ustase. Italian involvement at the assassination attempt would not be officially confirmed by either the Greeks or Yugoslavs, after behind the scenes pressure by France and Britain not to do so...
Sivas, November 1934
Earlier in the year Mustafa Kemal had avoided the temptation to start a war with Greece. Now he signed the agreement for Turkey to buy two submarines that Portugal had ordered in Italy but had failed to pay. Back in September Turkey had also quietly bought submarine E1 built by the Germans in Spain, despite the trouble currently underway in Spain the boat was already on its way to Turkey. For the first time Turkey was in direct open breach of the treaty of Chantilly...
[1] Back in 1924 Lloyd George remaining in power had not reduced navy appropriations from 10 to 7 cruisers TTL. So with the RN having the same numbers with OTL there are about 4-5 million poinds in the budget to finance a rifle along with the new LMG now that the Americans have also chosen the new calibre.
So Barthou is unlucky ITTL too, not just IOTL. However the survival of Alrexander of Yugoslavia is going to create interesting butterflies...
The Turkish Navy is significantly strengthened. Do the Greeks know these submarines agreements? If yes, perhaps it would be worth it to try to seize (or sink) the submarine E1 on its way to Turkey.
Who is the replacement for Stergiadis?
The Turkish Navy is significantly strengthened. Do the Greeks know these submarines agreements? If yes, perhaps it would be worth it to try to seize (or sink) the submarine E1 on its way to Turkey.
Who is the replacement for Stergiadis?
If Kemal was entertaining ideas of war at this point, that would be a casus belli I bet. But with the current mood of France and the UK being appeasement, Greece would have to think twice, unless it's ready for a preemptive war.
Barthou was... necessary, after all Chernozemski was capable enough that complete failure was unlikely. Alexander surviving is going to be affecting things, but perhaps in a lesser manner than one would expect given certain other things...
Even if they don't it is only a matter of time they do. Post that attacking a ship in the high seas is an act of war.
Not a Greek, that's the whole point for the Italians.
Greece at this point should be able to mobilise in case of war something around 600,000 men, their OTL 1934 mobilisation plan although this time round they actually have enough equipment to make it practical. Turkey should be able to mobilise about as many men, IMS they had 66 infantry regiments at this point in OTL but inferior in equipment (quite more so than OTL) and with worse communications. So as long as the Aegean remains open to the Greeks and they don't need to retain significant forces in Europe an invasion of Asia tic Greece is highly problematic. If the Greeks need to commit large forces in Europe or lose control of the Aegean things get much more even...
I am a bit disappointed about your killing Barthou, even if I understand your reasons. France keeping this competent and eastwards-looking foreign minister for a while longer would have had very interesting butterflies and I was looking forward to what you would have done with him. His survival would have opened the door for France to, well, not blunder as hard as OTL in its eastern policy. The "eastern pact" negociations which Barthou led were probably doomed from the start by polish & german opposition, but I do believe that Barthou would have kept insisting on multilateralism & keeping the Little Entente on board instead of the OTL shift towards bilateral ties with the USSR and the UK. Even if France choosing to privilege its little Entente allies over Britain and going to war in 38 would have been a bit of a stretch I admit. Then again, it is your TL, and I do appreciate your tendancy to try and keep the "survives"/"doesn't survive" ratio balanced!
Last edited: