Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

Second, the situation ITTL Yugoslavia is extremely different than in OTL Greece, and comparing them accomplishes very little. Greece had very little. You’re also to focused on just the Albanians in Kosovo. I mean the Bulgarians in Madcedonia as well. Considering Yugoslavia has a long history of trying to please their minorities, particularly the Croatians, with additional privileges and degrees of autonomy I fail to see the impending doom of the state if it does so in the south to gain allies agains the communists in the north. If Yugoslavia wants to survive it needs to give its minorities autonomy. Otherwise they’ll just keep fighting to leave because there is no Yugoslav identity. Theres 10 different groups and if you’re not a Christian Serb you’re a second class citizen. If the country has any long term hopes of survival that needs to change.
Thing is does Yugoslavia ittl really need to change in this way? If the monarchists mostly control Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro it is a Serb majority state, and with Serbs being anathema in Bosnia and Croatia due to the partisans during the civil war the monarchists have the population to repopulate Macedonia and Kosovo. They just need to ensure the Montenegrins are happy and they're mostly set.
Even removing just 10% (the most vocal nationalists who won't give up) of the Albanian people within Kosovo and 5 % (same) of the Bulgarian people within North Macedonia is going to have significant effects, especially when you're going to have plenty of Serb Bosnian and Serb Croatian refugees settling in their steeds...
Probably. I do think Yugoslavia won't be united until the 90s if we get a civil war that causes Serbia and Croatia to lead their own states. Effectively it'd just be Croatia + Bozniaks keeping the Serbs out and settling srpska land with Bosnians and Croats while the Serbs dominate Kosovo, Montenegro (probably the favoured minority) and Macedonia. Slovenia would probably be part of Serbian Yugoslavia but have self rule effectively much to the chagrin of the Communist Yugoslavs.
Smart thought of the day, all of the collaborationists have wives and daughters, so the Yugoslav government could punish those ethnic groups, and especially the Albanians with a very subtle, yet effective way that would promote not only reconciliation, but also force loyalty and integration between the Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.
I think it'd make a lot of Kosovars really angry, but it may help with integration. It'd also make cries of sexual abuse and the such be excused in Monarchist Yugoslavia for a while I bet.
Okay so first off their aren’t going to be any French or Greek forces helping them. They’re both going to have enough on their own plates to deal with, they’re not gonna have the resources or a real desire to send men to go die in a multi sided guerrilla war.
Tbf what will Greece be doing post war? With the Yugoslav civil war happening right next to them, and with the ME probably not immediately going off I think Greece will be heavily involved in the side of the Monarchists (although I do think Greece will help the ME as the Americans will ask for Greece to help the Alawite state, Lebanon and Israel, and Greece would do so for economical benefits and keeping their army usable. I see the US promising Cyprus to Greece around this point), and France would be happy selling everything they didn't need even if they're not throwing their army into the fray.
 
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Again no, Greece really doesn't have anything to worry about other than Yugoslavia

Tbf what will Greece be doing post war?

As I said before Greece is going to be busy occupying/integrating huge chunks of territory they took, try to rebuild after having their country turned into a war zone for the better part of 4 years, trying to get the last bits of land they want, and in all likelihood occupying territory in former axis members at least until the final peace is signed in a few years. Greece can help Yugoslavia, it can’t fix the country though

Instead you propose to weaken the already crumbling unity of the Yugoslav state

There is no unity to crumble. It’s never existed. Most of the ethnic groups have no reason to do anything other than hate Yugoslavia and the Serbs who run in. If you give them some autonomy at least they have a reason to buy in.

Even removing just 10% (the most vocal nationalists who won't give up) of the Albanian people within Kosovo and 5 % (same) of the Bulgarian people within North Macedonia is going to have significant effects, especially when you're going to have plenty of Serb Bosnian and Serb Croatian refugees settling in their steeds...

Smart thought of the day, all of the collaborationists have wives and daughters, so the Yugoslav government could punish those ethnic groups, and especially the Albanians with a very subtle, yet effective way that would promote not only reconciliation, but also force loyalty and integration between the Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.

Many Yugoslav officers and soldiers alike, similarly many chetnik guerillas, have lost wives and daughters to famine in Serbia, while the Albanians in Kosovo have fattened themselves during all those years of occupation!

The Royal government could right those wrongs and "encourage", that is force effectively, marriages between those Serb officers/soldiers and Albanian women in Kosovo from collaborationist families, especially if the patriarch of the collaborationist Albanian family fled from Kosovo.

This would be a way for the collaborationist families to prove their loyalty to the Yugoslav royal government, or else they would have their properties seized by the state, to accommodate/feed Serb refugees, and/or be expelled from Kosovo altogether!

Add the flight of collaborationist soldiers from Kosovo and you have the basis for some stability in the region, by settling down all those retired battle hardened Yugoslav officers/soldiers/chetniks guerillas there and fostering assimilation between the two ethnic groups.

They'd act somewhat like the Akrites of old I'd presume, as they'd be more than able to commit to policing duties when nessecary.

And also the Albanians would eventually be forced to accept them, as they'd come into regular contact with them and become family to them and their children, so that would in effect serve to harmonize relations between the Albanian and Serb people within Kosovo, within several decades.

That’s not a smart idea. That is Genocide. That isn’t hyperbole, that actual fits the UN definition of genocide. Killing large parts of the population for being “troublemakers”, preventing them from reproducing, kidnapping children to forcefully adopt. Even if you want to ignore the moral aspect I can’t imagine the US allowing it to happen just due to the PR nuclear disaster that would occur. One of the first things the UN passed was declaring genocide illegal after all.
 
I see the US promising Cyprus to Greece around this point), and France would be happy selling everything they didn't need even if they're not throwing their army into the fray.
Cyprus is not a US possecion so US can not promise to give it to Greece. The Colonial Office will see to that. All the US can promise is to mediate between Greece and the UK for a fair (sic) solution to the Cyprus issue.
 
Cyprus is not a US possecion so US can not promise to give it to Greece. The Colonial Office will see to that. All the US can promise is to mediate between Greece and the UK for a fair (sic) solution to the Cyprus issue.
I think the US could definitely twist UK's arm to make the cessation of Cyprus to Greece a lot more favourable to Greece. The UK will have less and less power from now on.
 
If the government of Yugoslavia has been paying any attention to the politics of the resistance, or hell the ethnic politics of their country since the war started, they’re aware of the powder keg they’re marching back into. The cracks are obvious and many. To my knowledge their two closest allies are the French and the Greeks who, while certainly not helpless, are in no shape to be providing the kind of massive aid that would be required to properly “clean house” of traitors and Partisans. Plus in post WW2 Europe, yesterdays fascist collaborators are tomorrow bulwark against the communist horde.
And the British. Though for Britain Yugoslavia is in the "nice to have" territory, nowhere nearly as critical as frex Greece.
So as distasteful and unpleasant a spoon of medicine it might be to swallow, I think they’re given some form of ethnic/cultural autonomy in exchange for help in the almost certain civil war. While it certainly wouldn’t make the Nationalists in these groups overjoyed i think they’d agree since the alternative is persecution followed by likely communist rule. Bali Kombetar in particular was virulently anti communist so I find them very likely to be an ally of convenience for the Yugoslav government. With both sides probably planning to alter the deal at a later point. It’s not exactly a good way to form a healthy lasting government but if the Yugoslavian royals want their rule to see the second half of the century, they might need to accept it’s likely to explode again sometime soon down the line
Balli Kombetar was virulently anti-communist yes but was also virulently anti-Serb and anti-Greek, enough so to side with the Germans in 1943 when it was short of obvious who was winning. In Kosovo in particular you had about 100,000 ethnic Serbs deported, which the royal government will want returned and some 70,000 Albanians from Albania proper settled which Belgrade will want out (Tito was supposedly more accommodating on both questions, in his hopes of swallowing up the entirety of Albania)

One must also note that being anti-communist is no guarantee of joining up with the anti-communists. Cases in point:

1. In Greek Macedonia Ohrana was a Bulgaria collaborationist militia with about 3,000 members. Fast forward to late 1944 when with the collapse of the occupation many Ohrana members... join wholesale SNOF, the Slav-Macedonian organization under the command of ELAS (and ironically end up fighting it out with ELAS as the Venizelist officers commanding the units of ELAS in West Macedonia, move against SNOF when it shows signs of autonomy from EAM). Many of the same men will then find them willingly or otherwise in the ranks of the Democratic Army of Greece during the civil war.

2. The Cham Albanians fought wholesale on the side of the German-Italian occupation in Epirus (a population of roughly 18,000 people had 2-3,000 men in collaborationist units). In 1944 they got expelled by EDES guerillas. Fast forward to the Greek civil war and Hoxca being pressured to allow the wholesale recruitment of the Chams into the Democratic Army...

Modern North Macedonia is more complicated. Official pre-war Yugoslav policy was Serbianization. Bulgarians, Greeks or for that matter Slavomacedonians as a distinct group did not exist everyone was a Serb whether he knew it or not. The table below has the results of the 1921 Yugoslav census as presented in the 1929 statistical yearbook. According to which modern North Macedonia had all of 157 Bulgarians while everyone else was Serb speaking. Post war... autonomy looks tantamount to Bulgaria setting foot in the area.... not without reason. Yugoslavia has just ended its third war with Bulgaria over the territory and everyone in Belgrade will believe, not without reason one might add, that Bulgaria still wants the area.

yugoslav census 1921.jpg


I do think that Macedonians probably won't be getting anywhere near the autonomy they got ittl, same as the Albanians in Kosovo, bc the Chetniks are a lot more right wing and won't be accommodating them at all. I see Yugoslavia and Albania being one of the few regions where we see American-mandated ethnic movements (ofc the Soviets will decry it bc they're hypocrites) where we see Albanians being taken out of Kosovo and Macedonians being moved to Bulgaria (or moving some of them out and moving Bosnian and Croatian Serbs to the ethnically cleansed regions is a plausible scenario.
In the case of North Macedonia the not very polite but still reasonable question is who is what in 1944. Neither the modern North Macedonian discourse that everyone already felt a separate nation nor the modern Bulgarian (and Greek) discourse that everyone was feeling Bulgarian and the modern nation is the result of ethonogenesis on the hands of the communist regime are. There was a Slav-Macedonian population that felt separate from Bulgaria prior to 1941. As there was a population that felt Bulgarian, the Bulgarians were not welcomed in 1941 as liberators by ghosts, nor the Bulgarian action commitees sprang up by ghosts either. How many were in each group? I'm inclined to believe more were Bulgarian affiliated than independent minded if one looks on how many were ending in the Bulgarian army as opposed to the partisans. But then I'm Greek hence biased myself.

TTL the royal gevernment has to somehow deal with this mess. It's own nationalists will want to pick up at 1940 and continue insisting everyone is a Serb. Supporting "Macedonianism" means supporting its communist opponents and its Greek allies will have kittens, the Communist affiliated movement is publicly claiming Greek Macedonia and no Greek government in this era is much removed from suspicion Belgrade has its sights on Thessaloniki, the moment the slightest real or imaginary evidence to that end rears its head, three generations of the Greek political classes since 1870 have grown with the ghost of panslavism wanting the Greek lands north of the Olympus, even communism is often seen as just altering the approach to achieve the same end. Dealing with the Bulgarians? That means making concessions to Sofia at the very moment it just won against the third Bulgarian invasion in a row and giving Bulgaria ground to prepare the fourth (or so it will look to Belgrade).

Not an enviable set of options.
 

Serpent

Banned
As I said before Greece is going to be busy occupying/integrating huge chunks of territory they took, try to rebuild after having their country turned into a war zone for the better part of 4 years, trying to get the last bits of land they want, and in all likelihood occupying territory in former axis members at least until the final peace is signed in a few years. Greece can help Yugoslavia, it can’t fix the country though

I couldn't disagree more, where are all those "huge chunks of territory that Greece has to digest and how big are they proportionally to ITTL Greece's territory, because you mentioned Balkan Wars, WWI & Anatolian campaign gains of territory for Greece all lumped together with WWII gains, which are really small comparatively.

Regardless, all the ITTL Greek gains prior to WWII have fully been integrated, so your line of reasoning is based on a false premise...

here is no unity to crumble. It’s never existed. Most of the ethnic groups have no reason to do anything other than hate Yugoslavia and the Serbs who run in. If you give them some autonomy at least they have a reason to buy in.

Every state is different, in some states minority right would diffuse tensions, in other states, especially when said ethnic groups hate the guts of one another the only result of granting autonomy to the Albanians of Kosovo and the Bulgars of North Macedonia would be to set a timebomb on the very foundations of royalist Yugoslavia and watch it consume the state with staggering instability 1-2 decades down the line.

That’s not a smart idea. That is Genocide. That isn’t hyperbole, that actual fits the UN definition of genocide. Killing large parts of the population for being “troublemakers”, preventing them from reproducing, kidnapping children to forcefully adopt. Even if you want to ignore the moral aspect I can’t imagine the US allowing it to happen just due to the PR nuclear disaster that would occur. One of the first things the UN passed was declaring genocide illegal after all.

I never said "kill", you misinterpreted this as you'd liked, I said that the families of the collaborationists that would flee and remain within communist half of Yugoslavia, they would be sentenced in absentia and all of their belongings seized, in order for their wifes and daughters to keep possession of their belongings, they would have to demonstrate their loyalty to the Yugoslav royal state!

Keep in mind that those collaborationists would probably be alive in several or most cases, the Yugoslav military won't execute them nessecarily, unless they are sentenced by a military tribuneral for commiting warcrimes. (Aka cleaning house, but as I said even that would be limited to average OTL WWII numbers)

So the vast majority would be widows/daughters of dead collaborationists and wives/daughters that were left behind by collaborationists that fled the state of Yugoslavia for the communist half to avoid punishment for their crimes or for whatever other reason, they would be assumed guilty.

So no genocide whatsoever, just because it doesn't fit your grant rights to the minorities narrative doesn't mean you can call if a genocide...
 

Serpent

Banned
And the British. Though for Britain Yugoslavia is in the "nice to have" territory, nowhere nearly as critical as frex Greece.

Balli Kombetar was virulently anti-communist yes but was also virulently anti-Serb and anti-Greek, enough so to side with the Germans in 1943 when it was short of obvious who was winning. In Kosovo in particular you had about 100,000 ethnic Serbs deported, which the royal government will want returned and some 70,000 Albanians from Albania proper settled which Belgrade will want out (Tito was supposedly more accommodating on both questions, in his hopes of swallowing up the entirety of Albania)

One must also note that being anti-communist is no guarantee of joining up with the anti-communists. Cases in point:

1. In Greek Macedonia Ohrana was a Bulgaria collaborationist militia with about 3,000 members. Fast forward to late 1944 when with the collapse of the occupation many Ohrana members... join wholesale SNOF, the Slav-Macedonian organization under the command of ELAS (and ironically end up fighting it out with ELAS as the Venizelist officers commanding the units of ELAS in West Macedonia, move against SNOF when it shows signs of autonomy from EAM). Many of the same men will then find them willingly or otherwise in the ranks of the Democratic Army of Greece during the civil war.

2. The Cham Albanians fought wholesale on the side of the German-Italian occupation in Epirus (a population of roughly 18,000 people had 2-3,000 men in collaborationist units). In 1944 they got expelled by EDES guerillas. Fast forward to the Greek civil war and Hoxca being pressured to allow the wholesale recruitment of the Chams into the Democratic Army...

Modern North Macedonia is more complicated. Official pre-war Yugoslav policy was Serbianization. Bulgarians, Greeks or for that matter Slavomacedonians as a distinct group did not exist everyone was a Serb whether he knew it or not. The table below has the results of the 1921 Yugoslav census as presented in the 1929 statistical yearbook. According to which modern North Macedonia had all of 157 Bulgarians while everyone else was Serb speaking. Post war... autonomy looks tantamount to Bulgaria setting foot in the area.... not without reason. Yugoslavia has just ended its third war with Bulgaria over the territory and everyone in Belgrade will believe, not without reason one might add, that Bulgaria still wants the area.

View attachment 877599


In the case of North Macedonia the not very polite but still reasonable question is who is what in 1944. Neither the modern North Macedonian discourse that everyone already felt a separate nation nor the modern Bulgarian (and Greek) discourse that everyone was feeling Bulgarian and the modern nation is the result of ethonogenesis on the hands of the communist regime are. There was a Slav-Macedonian population that felt separate from Bulgaria prior to 1941. As there was a population that felt Bulgarian, the Bulgarians were not welcomed in 1941 as liberators by ghosts, nor the Bulgarian action commitees sprang up by ghosts either. How many were in each group? I'm inclined to believe more were Bulgarian affiliated than independent minded if one looks on how many were ending in the Bulgarian army as opposed to the partisans. But then I'm Greek hence biased myself.

TTL the royal gevernment has to somehow deal with this mess. It's own nationalists will want to pick up at 1940 and continue insisting everyone is a Serb. Supporting "Macedonianism" means supporting its communist opponents and its Greek allies will have kittens, the Communist affiliated movement is publicly claiming Greek Macedonia and no Greek government in this era is much removed from suspicion Belgrade has its sights on Thessaloniki, the moment the slightest real or imaginary evidence to that end rears its head, three generations of the Greek political classes since 1870 have grown with the ghost of panslavism wanting the Greek lands north of the Olympus, even communism is often seen as just altering the approach to achieve the same end. Dealing with the Bulgarians? That means making concessions to Sofia at the very moment it just won against the third Bulgarian invasion in a row and giving Bulgaria ground to prepare the fourth (or so it will look to Belgrade).

Not an enviable set of options.

Amen, you've said it best, especially on the Slavs of North Macedonia, granting them autonomy would be tantamount to suicide for the Yugoslav royal state, after all they consider them all Serbs and will keep Serbianizing them, even if they do so with less intensity in the future.
 
I couldn't disagree more, where are all those "huge chunks of territory that Greece has to digest and how big are they proportionally to ITTL Greece's territory, because you mentioned Balkan Wars, WWI & Anatolian campaign gains of territory for Greece all lumped together with WWII gains, which are really small comparatively.

Regardless, all the ITTL Greek gains prior to WWII have fully been integrated, so your line of reasoning is based on a false premise...



Every state is different, in some states minority right would diffuse tensions, in other states, especially when said ethnic groups hate the guts of one another the only result of granting autonomy to the Albanians of Kosovo and the Bulgars of North Macedonia would be to set a timebomb on the very foundations of royalist Yugoslavia and watch it consume the state with staggering instability 1-2 decades down the line.



I never said "kill", you misinterpreted this as you'd liked, I said that the families of the collaborationists that would flee and remain within communist half of Yugoslavia, they would be sentenced in absentia and all of their belongings seized, in order for their wifes and daughters to keep possession of their belongings, they would have to demonstrate their loyalty to the Yugoslav royal state!

Keep in mind that those collaborationists would probably be alive in several or most cases, the Yugoslav military won't execute them nessecarily, unless they are sentenced by a military tribuneral for commiting warcrimes. (Aka cleaning house, but as I said even that would be limited to average OTL WWII numbers)

So the vast majority would be widows/daughters of dead collaborationists and wives/daughters that were left behind by collaborationists that fled the state of Yugoslavia for the communist half to avoid punishment for their crimes or for whatever other reason, they would be assumed guilty.

So no genocide whatsoever, just because it doesn't fit your grant rights to the minorities narrative doesn't mean you can call if a genocide...
Even of you can call it "not genocide" it is ethnic cleansing with sexual slavery mixed in...i don't think anyone in the church and government with support this instead of just sending the settlers back to Albania
 

Serpent

Banned
Even of you can call it "not genocide" it is ethnic cleansing with sexual slavery mixed in...i don't think anyone in the church and government with support this instead of just sending the settlers back to Albania
This was a different era, you're just too sensitive...

It's not like they 100% have to marry the guy, they'll just remain homeless if they don't...

But they don't really own the house, their collaborationist husband/father did, and the state seized it as punishment for his collaboration with the Axis, so I see it as a rather fair deal...

After all they can flee to communist Yugoslavia if they don't like this deal, to be with their collaborationist husband/father...

It's just a subtler way of cleaning house...
 
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Even of you can call it "not genocide" it is ethnic cleansing with sexual slavery mixed in...i don't think anyone in the church and government with support this instead of just sending the settlers back to Albania
Just to mention here . The serbian orthodox church was fully behind whatever happened in the Bosnian war in the 90s . The Greek orthodox church was so much behind them on that that a few of the now convicted war criminals were awarded honors and called Christian heroes by the Greek church WHILE they were committing their war crimes . The church getting icky about the genocide , very much unlikely in my opinion...
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Smart thought of the day, all of the collaborationists have wives and daughters, so the Yugoslav government could punish those ethnic groups, and especially the Albanians with a very subtle, yet effective way that would promote not only reconciliation, but also force loyalty and integration between the Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.

Many Yugoslav officers and soldiers alike, similarly many chetnik guerillas, have lost wives and daughters to famine in Serbia, while the Albanians in Kosovo have fattened themselves during all those years of occupation!

The Royal government could right those wrongs and "encourage", that is force effectively, marriages between those Serb officers/soldiers and Albanian women in Kosovo from collaborationist families, especially if the patriarch of the collaborationist Albanian family fled from Kosovo.

This would be a way for the collaborationist families to prove their loyalty to the Yugoslav royal government, or else they would have their properties seized by the state, to accommodate/feed Serb refugees, and/or be expelled from Kosovo altogether!

Add the flight of collaborationist soldiers from Kosovo and you have the basis for some stability in the region, by settling down all those retired battle hardened Yugoslav officers/soldiers/chetniks guerillas there and fostering assimilation between the two ethnic groups.

They'd act somewhat like the Akrites of old I'd presume, as they'd be more than able to commit to policing duties when nessecary.

And also the Albanians would eventually be forced to accept them, as they'd come into regular contact with them and become family to them and their children, so that would in effect serve to harmonize relations between the Albanian and Serb people within Kosovo, within several decades.
Advocating Crimes Against Humanity, in this case rape under color of authority, is utterly unacceptable here

To Coventry with you.
 
Periodic note.
  1. This is supposed to be a plausible TL, emphasis on plausible, exploring the outcome of Greek victory in 1919-22 and its long term effects. If you are Greek, Turkish, dunno what other nation variant of far right winger you are in for a disappointment. Many disappointments actually.
  2. Yes this is a TL with a POD in 1920 that extends to WW2 and hopefully beyond. Bad things are going to happen in droves whether it is war crimes, or ethnic cleansing and genocides, given the era and conflict currently covered. But there is a NOT SUBTLE difference between saying "group X is likely to commit Y due to this set of factors" and actually advocating it. For the second group please stay the f@#$ off my TL.
We return now to our normal program.
 
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Not every day you see plain straight up Serb ultranationalist talking points in discourse, but I suppose there has to be a first for everything. Seconding thanks to @CalBear for prompt remediation.

I definitely agree with North Macedonia's postwar settlement being a tenuous issue, not in the least because a partition of the prewar territory is already agreed on in some capacity - the cession of Monastir/Bitola to Greece. I have a really hard time seeing Serbia/Yugoslavia being able to renege on that deal given how much political influence Greece has over the very survival of the Karađorđević regime, so the question then becomes one of how far north you draw the lime, and whether any other pieces of southern North Macedonia get traded in; obviously both Greece and Serbia will want to maximize their control over the Ohrid area, so there is room for additional contention beyond the minimum agreed trade. So that question is already going to put a bit of strain between postwar Serbia-Montenegro and Greece, even if only to a degree muted by prior agreement.

With respect to Bulgaria and its claims (and the issue of how a Serb nationalist state is going to treat a populace associating with a distinct/rival South Slavic identity), I was wondering if a token re-cession of the Strumica area (the southeastern part of the region controlled by Bulgaria between the Balkan Wars and end-WWI) might be agreed upon in a bid to "decisively settle the issue," restoring the border set before the World Wars and very slightly compensating Bulgaria for losses to Greece while in practice changing little on the map. It's a very small change, but I can see it offered by the government in Belgrade if they feel buying some credit with Bulgaria is better than them cutting bread with either the Greeks or Eastern Bloc (inc. Tito's partisans). Besides that single option I can't really think of any concessions Serbia would feel like making territorially, and in terms of regional Slavo-Macedonian/Bulgarian identity I have a hard time seeing Chetnik Serbia doing anything besides heavy handed assimilation and/or deportation tactics. The Albanians in the region are in a similar pickle I fear, barring some unforeseen watershed success for one of the Albanian partisan factions.
 
This was a different era, you're just too sensitive...

It's not like they 100% have to marry the guy, they'll just remain homeless if they don't...

But they don't really own the house, their collaborationist husband/father did, and the state seized it as punishment for his collaboration with the Axis, so I see it as a rather fair deal...

After all they can flee to communist Yugoslavia if they don't like this deal, to be with their collaborationist husband/father...

It's just a subtler way of cleaning house...
So it's basically been forced to be a sex slave or else...
 
Not every day you see plain straight up Serb ultranationalist talking points in discourse, but I suppose there has to be a first for everything. Seconding thanks to @CalBear for prompt remediation.
Not certain he was a Serb ultra or a Greek fascist of some short. Either way...
I definitely agree with North Macedonia's postwar settlement being a tenuous issue, not in the least because a partition of the prewar territory is already agreed on in some capacity - the cession of Monastir/Bitola to Greece. I have a really hard time seeing Serbia/Yugoslavia being able to renege on that deal given how much political influence Greece has over the very survival of the Karađorđević regime, so the question then becomes one of how far north you draw the lime, and whether any other pieces of southern North Macedonia get traded in; obviously both Greece and Serbia will want to maximize their control over the Ohrid area, so there is room for additional contention beyond the minimum agreed trade. So that question is already going to put a bit of strain between postwar Serbia-Montenegro and Greece, even if only to a degree muted by prior agreement.
My assumption is both sides are a little embarrassed by the whole thing but cannot quite renege on it, after all for Greek patriots Monastir and Serb/Yugoslav treatment of its Greeks has been a sore point since 1912.
With respect to Bulgaria and its claims (and the issue of how a Serb nationalist state is going to treat a populace associating with a distinct/rival South Slavic identity), I was wondering if a token re-cession of the Strumica area (the southeastern part of the region controlled by Bulgaria between the Balkan Wars and end-WWI) might be agreed upon in a bid to "decisively settle the issue," restoring the border set before the World Wars and very slightly compensating Bulgaria for losses to Greece
That looks to me unlikely, if anything I could well see Belgrade making claims on Pirin. After all the communists will be making such claims if only to embarrass the royalists. "see the monarchofascists give up parts of Macedonia to the Greeks, instead of demanding the liberation of Aegean and Pirin Macedonia!"
 
Not every day you see plain straight up Serb ultranationalist talking points in discourse, but I suppose there has to be a first for everything. Seconding thanks to @CalBear for prompt remediation.

I definitely agree with North Macedonia's postwar settlement being a tenuous issue, not in the least because a partition of the prewar territory is already agreed on in some capacity - the cession of Monastir/Bitola to Greece. I have a really hard time seeing Serbia/Yugoslavia being able to renege on that deal given how much political influence Greece has over the very survival of the Karađorđević regime, so the question then becomes one of how far north you draw the lime, and whether any other pieces of southern North Macedonia get traded in; obviously both Greece and Serbia will want to maximize their control over the Ohrid area, so there is room for additional contention beyond the minimum agreed trade. So that question is already going to put a bit of strain between postwar Serbia-Montenegro and Greece, even if only to a degree muted by prior agreement.

With respect to Bulgaria and its claims (and the issue of how a Serb nationalist state is going to treat a populace associating with a distinct/rival South Slavic identity), I was wondering if a token re-cession of the Strumica area (the southeastern part of the region controlled by Bulgaria between the Balkan Wars and end-WWI) might be agreed upon in a bid to "decisively settle the issue," restoring the border set before the World Wars and very slightly compensating Bulgaria for losses to Greece while in practice changing little on the map. It's a very small change, but I can see it offered by the government in Belgrade if they feel buying some credit with Bulgaria is better than them cutting bread with either the Greeks or Eastern Bloc (inc. Tito's partisans). Besides that single option I can't really think of any concessions Serbia would feel like making territorially, and in terms of regional Slavo-Macedonian/Bulgarian identity I have a hard time seeing Chetnik Serbia doing anything besides heavy handed assimilation and/or deportation tactics. The Albanians in the region are in a similar pickle I fear, barring some unforeseen watershed success for one of the Albanian partisan factions.
I simply can't see any government doing that . No one will feel that Bulgaria , the aggressor against both serbia and greece in 2 world wars , would be deserving of compensation. On the other hand , Yugoslavia has every reason in the world to use the agreement with Greece to not only cement its alliance with the new bug power in the area , but to milk as much help as possible from them in its struggle against Tito . As for mass deportations , I'd really hope that they are sensible enough to not do it . Mass deportations (and all the war crimes that come with them , because realistically a state that mass deports people won't do so civilly )breed hate far more long lasting than any territorial changes would ever do . The government in Belgrade (which pretty mich was a guest of Greece for most of the war ) deciding that approaching their enemies of the last 3 decades is preferable to continuing the ir good contact with their allies of the last several decades would be rather bizarre , as far as political moves go .
 
Part 153
Kent, August 12th, 1944

Lieutenant Joseph Kennedy USN, flinched as he hit the ground and he released his parachute. The BQ-8 he had took off with earlier was supposed to be on its way to its target in Germany. Whether it would reach it was not his problem. His work for today was over...

Moldavia, August 13th, 1944

The Soviet 2nd Ukrainian front was not yet completely ready to launch its offensive that would hopefully knock Romania out of the war, existing plans called for the offensive to begin in a week's time. But Rodion Malinovsky had no intention to let the Germans and Romanians retreat to their new defensive line between the Carpathians and the Danube unhindered and had little trouble convincing the STAVKA and Stalin that the date of the offensive should be brought forward. Nearly 1.3 million Soviet soldiers went to the attack. The German-Romanian redeployment was still underway...

Bucharest, August 13th, 1944

The politicians making up the National Democratic Front met in a hurry. The Soviet offensive had caught them by surprise, they were supposed to be negotiating with the Soviets in Stockholm. Immediate action against Antonescu was now needed before it was too late. The plans for a coup were set to motion in parallel with a last attempt to convince Antonescu to agree to an armistice. Antonescu shaken by the early success of the Soviet offensive, German and Romanian divisions had already begun crumbling under the Soviet attack, was willing to discuss an armistice but for now was insisting the Romanian army should first retreat to its new line of defense...

Constantinople, August 13th 1944

The Bosporus remained quiet. Earlier in the day the Soviet ambassador in Sofia had handed prime minister Muraviev much to his shock a Soviet declaration o war against Bulgaria. But the Soviet soldiers in Uskudar had hardly fired a shot so far. As long as they did not the Bulgarian soldiers on the European side were under strict orders.

Thrace, August 14th, 1944


Komotini was liberated by the Greek army. Thrace was turning in something of a sideshow as both the Greek and the Bulgarian armies where concentrating their attention on the Greek advance to Sofia. But the Greek D Corps under the newly promoted general Euripidis Bakirtzis kept pushing eastwards, its advance spearheaded by the Greek III Armoured Division and supported by elements of the Greek navy.

Belgrade, August 14th, 1944

Hermann Neubacher, was usually a composed man. Today he was literally screaming to Milan Stojadinovic at the top of his lungs. Stojadinovic had been prime minister of Yugoslavia till prince Paul had unceremoniously kicked him out in Christmas 1937, only for the Italians to install him as head of the new puppet government of occupied Serbia. The Germans had kept him, as despite the increasing sabotage and guerilla activity he did manage to keep a lid on things. Nit any more. Earlier in the day Serbia and Montenegro had erupted into all out revolt as the Chetnik command had proclaimed a general uprising in the name of the Royal government, with BBC and Radio Athens making sure the message of revolt reached far and wide. This was the last thing the German army fighting in the south needed and Stojadinovic appeared completely unable to be of any help. The Serbian State Guard and the "legal Chetniks" of the late Kosta Pecanac, Pecanac himself had been captured and executed by Chetnik units loyal to the Athens government earlier in the year, were deserting or outright joining the rebels, in hopes of escaping retribution. The only force still loyal to the puppet government and the Germans was the Serbian Volunteer Corps of Dimitrije Ljotić which numbered fewer than ten thousand men...

Cote D' Azur, August 15th, 1944

Ten Allied battleships and over two dozen cruisers, from the US, Britain, France, Greece and Italy provided gunfire support to the American and French troops hitting the beaches as operation Anvil begun. Earlier in the day US and Canadian paratroopers had opened the liberation of South France. The Germans were supposed to have an entire army group occupying the area and were expecting an Allied Aphibius assault in the Mediterranean. And yet there was very little the could do to stop it against overwhelming Allied naval and air superiority, nearly 3,500 aircraft were flying shorties in support of the landings. By nighttime three American divisions were securely ashore with minimal casualties...

Spanish-French frontier, August 15th, 1944


450,000 Spanish soldiers attacked over the border. The handful of German units covering the border and the roughly 40,000 Falangists that had escaped into France earlier in the year were hardly a match for all the difficult terrain. The Spanish army was lacking inn armor and modern equipment, its most modern arms ironically enough had been German designs locally build in Spain and German arms captured in North Africa ad the Balkans and delivers to Spain. But no man had ever accused Spanish soldiers of lack of courage annd the Spanish provisional government under general Ochoa had a lot of scores to close with the Germans for instigating the second civil war. Besides Ochoa could well see which side was winning the world war and that his own nationalists despite disassociating themselves from the Falange were still tarnished in the eyes of broad swaths of the Western public for their collusion with Italy and Germany in the first civil war...

Off Toulon, August 16th, 1944


The crew of the destroyer Meliti [1], the latest and last of of the J class destroyers built in Greece, was in a dark mood, the previous day its sister ship Sachturis had been hit and sunk by a Hs 293 guided bomb, dropped by a German Do.217 that had managed to slip through the Allied air cover. Then the ship's ASDIC pinged something and all else was forgotten as the ship took a swift turn towards the contact. Not long later Meliti's Hedgehog launcher begun firing sinking the contact. The submarine would be identified after the German surrended as U407. The Kriegsmarine had begun the year with 25 submarines in the Mediterranean. Now none remained. Its foray in the Mediterranean had cost it 68 submarines in total since 1941.

Paris, August 16th, 1944


Erwin Rommel shook the hand of Walter Model and left headquarters. His insistence to retreat from Falaise had cost him his position as commander of Army Group B. Ironically enough Model after an initial order to hold the pocket would proceed with convincing Hitler to allow him to retreat. In the meantime news from the frontline were an endless litany of defeats, the latest the liberation of Chartres by the US army.

Bucharest, August 16th, 1944

The Iron Guard was on the move. News had reached Corneliu Codreanu and the German embassy of Antonescu discussing with the politicians his resignation and an armistice with the Soviets. This would not do. Codreanu was determined that Romania would fight to the last drop of blood against both the communists and the capitalists. The Guard backed by German soldiers would soon capture the ministry of the interior and manage to arrest Antonescu. But their initial attack on the ministry of war would be beaten back and Iuliu Maniu the leading politician of the National Democratic Front was nowhere to be found, he had gone in hiding days before the coup in anticipation of the NDF's own coup planned for the 18th...

Zonguldak, Turkey, August 16th, 1944


The quartet of surviving Turkish navy destroyers, laid up since May begun raising steam again. Their crews looked with some curiosity at the quartet of Soviet ships that had come to join them. Both the heavy cruiser Voroshilov and the three Type 7 destroyers were vaguely reminiscent of the Turks own Italian ships. But this mattered little. The Soviet soldiers boarding all ships mattered not. The joint flotilla was obviously on its way on some mission and the government in Sivas had decided to lend the Soviets, whose own Black Sea fleet had been decimated, a hand on that mission...

Sofia, August 16th to 17th, 1944


Konstantin Muraviev, could see from his window the night skyline being lit from end to end by the fire of the Greek artillery and the thunder of the guns could be easily heard, earlier in the day the Greeks had taken Pernik a mere 30 km from Sofia and were pushing hard. Fires were burning in the city itself despite the best efforts of Sofia's fire brigade from the latest RAF raid. Filov on their latest meeting had clearly lost it and was grabbing at straws talking of the duty of Bulgaria to stand by the side of its German allies and of the army turning Sofia into the death ground of the Greek army. How Sofia would hold out without starving, with tens of thousands of refugees streaming into it in addition to its own population and the army was a different question. But then the regent was in the Germans pocket and had been spooked by the news of the German backed coup in Romania. Muraviev was made of sterner staff and he was not going to let Filov destroy what was left of the country, or the Germans overthrow him. Filov had brought a third national catastrophe, after these of 1913 and 1918. He had to end it while there was still time. He raised the telephone. As soon as he heard Kimon Georgiev on the other side of the line he said a single word. "Begin"

Over the next hour army units loyal to Bulgaria's Fatherland Front, a coalition of Muraviev's own Agrarians, Zveno, the Social Democratic Workers Party and the Bulgarian Communist party, would arrest the regents and disarm men loyal to them and the few German units within the country. At dawn Muraviev would go over the radio announcing the formation of a government of national unity by the front, with him remaining as prime minister and general Damyan Velchev as minister of war. Then he would announce Bulgaria's offer of an unconditional armistice to the United Nations...


[1] Ancient Greek name of Malta
 
Bucharest, August 16th, 1944

The Iron Guard was on the move. News had reached Corneliu Codreanu and the German embassy of Antonescu discussing with the politicians his resignation and an armistice with the Soviets. This would not do. Codreanu was determined that Romania would fight to the last drop of blood against both the communists and the capitalists. The Guard backed by German soldiers would soon capture the ministry of the interior and manage to arrest Antonescu. But their initial attack on the ministry of war would be beaten back and Iuliu Maniu the leading politician of the National Democratic Front was nowhere to be found, he had gone in hiding days before the coup in anticipation of the NDF's own coup planned for the 18th...
Looks like my intuition that Codreanu would be a Romanian version of Szalasi with the Iron Guard filling the role of the Arrow Cross/Government of National Unity in Hungary ITTL was right.
 
United Nations
Is this a typo or did the UN form a year earlier and I don’t remember it at all? I’m assuming this is the United States or United Kingdom? Either way I have a sneaking suspicion that that Soviet flotilla is gonna be rerouting from Constantinople to Romania when that’s announced. At least I hope so. It would he nice to see the Wallies smarten up about such things after the last time, and I could see the Bulgarians wanting to keep the Soviets out like the Turks wanted to keep the Greeks out.
 
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