I don't know much about equipment to join this conversation so all I can say is that Greece needs more than 400k rifles in the long run for equipping a larger force as a whole, it was mentioned something of 600k men. Also they have bought a lot of airplane scraps from the British in 1920 , I think, so they can experiment either for some new models or just in assembling them to raise their airforce. The idea of not expanding the navy with a battleship and keep it small and mobile with the addition of a capable airforce is better in my opinion. Well we will see soon enough I guess.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I found no such thing.
If you search by his name in the search you would see he got political in a thread. Too bad he had a lot of knowledge to share.
It's here https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/kick-and-ban-notices.470901/post-21343780
Unfortunate, he was making valuable contributions in the non-political threads and if it is some short of misunderstanding it can be hopefully straightened out/ he can explain himself, but ultimately it's always up to the moderators to make the decisions based on the information they have.
Short rule of thumb from 24 years in soc.history.what-if and here... always avoid the politics threads. You'll inevitably get into an argument, almost never convince the opposing side so why put the time and effort? Just to get frustrated / lose your temper / act inadvisedly?
In terms of economics to use Bairoch's tables on per-capita industrialization for lack of something better since the time of their publication, these are various European states in 1928 and 1938 and for comparison's shake also Italy.
| Year | 1928 | 1938 |
| Romania | 11 | 11 |
| Yugoslavia | 15 | 18 |
| Spain | 28 | 23 |
| Poland | 22 | 23 |
| Greece | 19 | 24 |
| Hungary | 30 | 34 |
| Italy | 39 | 44 |
OTL Greece was about on par with Spain and Poland, way ahead of Romania and Yugoslavia but behind Hungary and Italy. There were of course qualitative differences as well, frex OTL the first Greek steel industry was established only in 1938 (TTL it happens in 1923-24 instead) and size also matters. But overall it is I think a reasonable assumption that TTL at a minimum Greece should be able to do anything Romania and Yugoslavia could do and matching Hungary and Poland or for that matter Spain should be within the realm of plausibility, depending on details. Frex Spain's ability to design engines at Hispano-Suiza is likely unique to Spain. licence building engines like Romania, Poland and Hungary? This looks quite more plausible.
Well. Spain in 1938 was in the middle of a civil war. Without that it's per-capita industrialization would be roughly comparable to Italy's.
Spain in 1928 was at roughly 70% Italy's per capita industrialization. Not very well versed at how the Spanish economy was doing interwar, but it seems to me it should still be lagging behind Italy in 1936. That said a Spain that avoids the civil war or have in end early will be a more significant power than it's usually being given credit for. Something about half the industry and population of Italy and that's nothing to sneeze at...
I find it interesting that Hungary was that much industrialized in that era! I could see by 1928 Greece catching up to them but they need a lot of good moves and I think the first reforms would be land redistribution and reclaims so in the mid 20's the agricultural sector would be prioritized and that could help in the 30's to boost the industrial sector. What is going on on the mineral part in Greece ITTL?
Some of it was inherited from Austria Hungary, the Hungarians were insisting on getting half the army and navy contracts before 1914 even if their industry could not quite fulfil them. Thus come 1918 they had inherited Manfred Weiss and MAVAG, or for that matter Fegyver-es Gepgyar. Of course notably Romania managed to match about everything the Hungarians did while starting from a far weaker industrial basis...
Part 28 Of votes and football
Sivas, March 3rd 1924
Turkey and Germany signed a new treaty of friendship that included granting Germany the same lowered tariffs the Entente powers were getting till 1929. Turkey had been under no obligation to accept this, but relations between the two wartime allies were excellent, unlike these with France and Britain towards which Turkey remained wary and Turkey wanted to further strengthen commercial ties between the two countries and secure German investment within the country. Since 1922 the share of Germany in Turkish foreign trade had significantly increased, at the very time that the British share was fast dropping.
Kayseri, August 1924
The Turkish aircraft association had been established back in February as a private association to further civilian aviation in Turkey, after all the country was not allowed military aircraft by the treaty of Chantilly. Now a contract was signed with Junkers establishing the Motor Türk Anonim Şirket (TOMTAS) as a joint stock company between Junkers and the association to build an aircraft factory in Kayseri. Of course this was solely to further civilian aviation. After all the association was private, that several of its leading members were in the government and the army was accidental, people had a right to hobbies and making investments when off work. And off course Junkers as a German company was also forbidden from making military aircraft so wasn't making any...
Smyrna, September 1924
Young Alexandros Isigonis was both lucky and unlucky. Unlucky as two years ago he had lost his father. Lucky as he was the heir to the factory his grandfather Demosthenes had established. After 40 years of operation the Isigonis industry was the largest machinery works on the east side of the Aegean, building machinery of all kinds, steam engines and small ships. Just a few months before the factory had landed a contract to assemble about 250 cars for the Greek army. Alexandros found cars intriguing. He had bought a small one earlier in the year and had spent all summer driving it around and fixing it when it invariably broke down. Come October he would begin attending the engineering school of the Ionian university here in Smyrna.
Sivas, September 1924
The first Turkish football championship took place in Sivas between September 4th and 12th, with 14 teams participating in the matches of the first round. Several of the teams hailed from Constantinople, the Turkish teams in the city had outright refused to compete in a Constantinopolitan football championship together with the Greek and Armenian teams in the city despite the hopes of the League high commissioners for one. One Altay, originally established in Smyrna in 1914, had been forced to relocate to Sivas after the peace treaty. Harbiye, the team of the Turkish military academy would win the championship after a surprise win against Besiktas in the quarter-finals.
Piraeus, September 1924
The court officially approved the establishment of the Olympiakos football club. The creation of the new club spelled the end of APS Piraeus a football club established just the previous year that had come close to winning the 1923-24 Panhellenic championship, before losing it to Apollo Smyrna. The remaining members of APS would form themselves Ethnikos Piraeus, with both teams participating the the Piraeus local championship. This would be one of five Greek local championships, the other four being these of Athens, Ionia, Macedonia and Constantinople. At the end of the local championships play-offs between the local champions would establish the Greek champion. Olympiakos would quickly establish itself as the dominant team in Piraeus, just like Panathinaikos and ASP, the Pera Sports Club, dominated the Athenian and Constantinople championships respectively. The Macedonian and Ionian championships were more even as is Thessaloniki Ares was facing off Heracles and the weaker but dangerous Maccabi Thessaloniki [1], while in Smyrna Apollo had to contend with Panionios.
Britain, October 1924
New elections, proclaimed when David Lloyd George had tried playing his hand more than he should and Labour reacted by removing its tacit support for the Liberal cabinet, took place. Labour's calculation that the Liberals could not afford to finance a second election within a year of the previous one had proven less than accurate as Lloyd George had financed Liberal candidates from his slush fund, over the previous two years in power the sale of honours might have been less blatant than before the honours scandal but had continued on a smaller scale nevertheless. Unlike the previous year, fear of the rise of socialism and communism had fuelled the political discourse of the election. The Conservatives had easily come first with 42.4% and 377 MPs, followed by Labour with 32% and 162 MPs and the Liberals with 23.5% and 64 seats [2] Staley Baldwin would become the new PM. Lloyd George could at least claim he had helped the country recover economically and had several successes in foreign policy. The Royal Navy certainly could not complain, much, Lloyd George had refused the proposals to cut 3 million pounds from the naval estimates for 1923 and had also allocated part of the 1.5 million from the sale of 2 used light cruisers and 6 destroyers to Greece in 1920 to naval construction, in hopes of speeding up economic recovery. [3] Two heavy cruisers had been ordered in 1923 with 5 more in 1924. [4]
Greece, October 1924
The assembly concluded its work on the new draft constitution. Much like Britain power in the new constitution would lie with the prime minister, the president/king depending on the results of the coming referendum would have limited well defined roles. The number of members of the parliament would be reduced from 369 to 250, but at the same time the senate disbanded in 1864 was established again with 120 members that would serve for 8 years, half of them would be elected every four years. Originally proposals had been made to elect the senators for 9 years and replace a third of them every three years. But Protopapadakis had correctly pointed out that these way Greece would have elections every three years and separate parliamentary elections every four which was hardly practical and had suggested the scheme finally adopted on grounds of expedience and economy. The electoral law for the parliament was updated to using ballots for the election, while the senate despite conservative opposition would be elected using proportional representation.
Greece, November 9, 1924
Time for the elections had finally come. The Royalist opposition unlike 1920 was not united, reactions to the execution of the three and the referendum differed between the disparate parties of the Royalists in the aftermath of the January coup. Both sides had tried to use the economy in their favour, the Liberals pointing to continuing economic growth, land redistribution and the settlement of exchangees, nearly 31 million pounds including a 5 million pound internal loan and land worth another 36 million pounds had been provided. The opposition had pointed to the exchange rate of the drachma falling to 182 to 1 to the pound from 25 to 1 in 1914 while direct attacks on the exchanged populations and the populations of the Asia Minor Greeks where much rarer, the best know were these of Georgios Vlachos of the Kathimerini newspaper. In the end the overwhelming support the Liberal enjoined among the 1 million exchanged and the in Ionia and Thrace, all of which voted for the Liberals with margins near 90% [5] decided the election. The Liberals received 50.8% and 148 seats in parliament with the Royalists receiving 44.9% and 102 seats. The communists received 4.38% and no seats in parliament although they elected 5 senators.
The republic referendum had been hoped by conservatives to prove more favourable and retain the monarchy. Venizelos himself had not openly endorsed the republic but just his statement that he personally was a republican was sufficient for his followers. The royalists had done everything they could even having priests proclaim that the switch to the Gregorian calendar was a republican conspiracy. In the end the republic received a solid 62%, meaning that even some of the voters of the Royalist parties had voted against the monarchy... [6]. The result was clear. Greece would become a republic.
[1] No PAOK in Thessaloniki TTL. Which on one hand means stronger Ares and Heracles but also that someone got to take the niche of the third team.
[2] Effectively gave the Liberals their 1929 share of the vote reducing by the same about that of the Conservatives and Labour.
[3] After all he has Keynes for an advisor...
[4] Inspiration for this has come from @NOMISYRRUC who in another thread was kind enough to provide some very detailed data on British naval estimates. Based on these, they were 56.2 million in 1922, 52.6 in 1923 and 55.6 in 1924. TTL I'm having the continued Lloyd George ministry keep the 1923 estimates at ~56 million just like the previous and the next year with the money used to order a pair of cruisers early. This all other things being equal means that by 1930-31 the RN may or may not have about 4 more million to use for construction compared to OTL. Say of an early Ark Royal or a pair of Surreys...
[5] Historical
[6] OTL it was 70% but there were accusations of irregularities in the number of the yes votes. Even if they were it's nothing compared to the rigged vote of 97.88 for the monarchy in 1935...
Turkey and Germany signed a new treaty of friendship that included granting Germany the same lowered tariffs the Entente powers were getting till 1929. Turkey had been under no obligation to accept this, but relations between the two wartime allies were excellent, unlike these with France and Britain towards which Turkey remained wary and Turkey wanted to further strengthen commercial ties between the two countries and secure German investment within the country. Since 1922 the share of Germany in Turkish foreign trade had significantly increased, at the very time that the British share was fast dropping.
Kayseri, August 1924
The Turkish aircraft association had been established back in February as a private association to further civilian aviation in Turkey, after all the country was not allowed military aircraft by the treaty of Chantilly. Now a contract was signed with Junkers establishing the Motor Türk Anonim Şirket (TOMTAS) as a joint stock company between Junkers and the association to build an aircraft factory in Kayseri. Of course this was solely to further civilian aviation. After all the association was private, that several of its leading members were in the government and the army was accidental, people had a right to hobbies and making investments when off work. And off course Junkers as a German company was also forbidden from making military aircraft so wasn't making any...
Smyrna, September 1924
Young Alexandros Isigonis was both lucky and unlucky. Unlucky as two years ago he had lost his father. Lucky as he was the heir to the factory his grandfather Demosthenes had established. After 40 years of operation the Isigonis industry was the largest machinery works on the east side of the Aegean, building machinery of all kinds, steam engines and small ships. Just a few months before the factory had landed a contract to assemble about 250 cars for the Greek army. Alexandros found cars intriguing. He had bought a small one earlier in the year and had spent all summer driving it around and fixing it when it invariably broke down. Come October he would begin attending the engineering school of the Ionian university here in Smyrna.
Sivas, September 1924
The first Turkish football championship took place in Sivas between September 4th and 12th, with 14 teams participating in the matches of the first round. Several of the teams hailed from Constantinople, the Turkish teams in the city had outright refused to compete in a Constantinopolitan football championship together with the Greek and Armenian teams in the city despite the hopes of the League high commissioners for one. One Altay, originally established in Smyrna in 1914, had been forced to relocate to Sivas after the peace treaty. Harbiye, the team of the Turkish military academy would win the championship after a surprise win against Besiktas in the quarter-finals.
Piraeus, September 1924
The court officially approved the establishment of the Olympiakos football club. The creation of the new club spelled the end of APS Piraeus a football club established just the previous year that had come close to winning the 1923-24 Panhellenic championship, before losing it to Apollo Smyrna. The remaining members of APS would form themselves Ethnikos Piraeus, with both teams participating the the Piraeus local championship. This would be one of five Greek local championships, the other four being these of Athens, Ionia, Macedonia and Constantinople. At the end of the local championships play-offs between the local champions would establish the Greek champion. Olympiakos would quickly establish itself as the dominant team in Piraeus, just like Panathinaikos and ASP, the Pera Sports Club, dominated the Athenian and Constantinople championships respectively. The Macedonian and Ionian championships were more even as is Thessaloniki Ares was facing off Heracles and the weaker but dangerous Maccabi Thessaloniki [1], while in Smyrna Apollo had to contend with Panionios.
Britain, October 1924
New elections, proclaimed when David Lloyd George had tried playing his hand more than he should and Labour reacted by removing its tacit support for the Liberal cabinet, took place. Labour's calculation that the Liberals could not afford to finance a second election within a year of the previous one had proven less than accurate as Lloyd George had financed Liberal candidates from his slush fund, over the previous two years in power the sale of honours might have been less blatant than before the honours scandal but had continued on a smaller scale nevertheless. Unlike the previous year, fear of the rise of socialism and communism had fuelled the political discourse of the election. The Conservatives had easily come first with 42.4% and 377 MPs, followed by Labour with 32% and 162 MPs and the Liberals with 23.5% and 64 seats [2] Staley Baldwin would become the new PM. Lloyd George could at least claim he had helped the country recover economically and had several successes in foreign policy. The Royal Navy certainly could not complain, much, Lloyd George had refused the proposals to cut 3 million pounds from the naval estimates for 1923 and had also allocated part of the 1.5 million from the sale of 2 used light cruisers and 6 destroyers to Greece in 1920 to naval construction, in hopes of speeding up economic recovery. [3] Two heavy cruisers had been ordered in 1923 with 5 more in 1924. [4]
Greece, October 1924
The assembly concluded its work on the new draft constitution. Much like Britain power in the new constitution would lie with the prime minister, the president/king depending on the results of the coming referendum would have limited well defined roles. The number of members of the parliament would be reduced from 369 to 250, but at the same time the senate disbanded in 1864 was established again with 120 members that would serve for 8 years, half of them would be elected every four years. Originally proposals had been made to elect the senators for 9 years and replace a third of them every three years. But Protopapadakis had correctly pointed out that these way Greece would have elections every three years and separate parliamentary elections every four which was hardly practical and had suggested the scheme finally adopted on grounds of expedience and economy. The electoral law for the parliament was updated to using ballots for the election, while the senate despite conservative opposition would be elected using proportional representation.
Greece, November 9, 1924
Time for the elections had finally come. The Royalist opposition unlike 1920 was not united, reactions to the execution of the three and the referendum differed between the disparate parties of the Royalists in the aftermath of the January coup. Both sides had tried to use the economy in their favour, the Liberals pointing to continuing economic growth, land redistribution and the settlement of exchangees, nearly 31 million pounds including a 5 million pound internal loan and land worth another 36 million pounds had been provided. The opposition had pointed to the exchange rate of the drachma falling to 182 to 1 to the pound from 25 to 1 in 1914 while direct attacks on the exchanged populations and the populations of the Asia Minor Greeks where much rarer, the best know were these of Georgios Vlachos of the Kathimerini newspaper. In the end the overwhelming support the Liberal enjoined among the 1 million exchanged and the in Ionia and Thrace, all of which voted for the Liberals with margins near 90% [5] decided the election. The Liberals received 50.8% and 148 seats in parliament with the Royalists receiving 44.9% and 102 seats. The communists received 4.38% and no seats in parliament although they elected 5 senators.
The republic referendum had been hoped by conservatives to prove more favourable and retain the monarchy. Venizelos himself had not openly endorsed the republic but just his statement that he personally was a republican was sufficient for his followers. The royalists had done everything they could even having priests proclaim that the switch to the Gregorian calendar was a republican conspiracy. In the end the republic received a solid 62%, meaning that even some of the voters of the Royalist parties had voted against the monarchy... [6]. The result was clear. Greece would become a republic.
[1] No PAOK in Thessaloniki TTL. Which on one hand means stronger Ares and Heracles but also that someone got to take the niche of the third team.
[2] Effectively gave the Liberals their 1929 share of the vote reducing by the same about that of the Conservatives and Labour.
[3] After all he has Keynes for an advisor...
[4] Inspiration for this has come from @NOMISYRRUC who in another thread was kind enough to provide some very detailed data on British naval estimates. Based on these, they were 56.2 million in 1922, 52.6 in 1923 and 55.6 in 1924. TTL I'm having the continued Lloyd George ministry keep the 1923 estimates at ~56 million just like the previous and the next year with the money used to order a pair of cruisers early. This all other things being equal means that by 1930-31 the RN may or may not have about 4 more million to use for construction compared to OTL. Say of an early Ark Royal or a pair of Surreys...
[5] Historical
[6] OTL it was 70% but there were accusations of irregularities in the number of the yes votes. Even if they were it's nothing compared to the rigged vote of 97.88 for the monarchy in 1935...
So Alex Issigonis's move to the UK is butterflied away, leaving the world without the Minor and the Mini?
A pity in that respect. For all his talents he was a flawed individual in OTL whose excesses were not reigned in by management upon returning from Alvis to BMC, like his more accomplished Italian rival Dante Giacosa at Fiat he sought to develop cars as a complete work of art (or Gesamtkunstwerk) though his record in engine design (e.g. Nuffield Flat-Fours, Alvis V8, 9X 4-cylinder / 10X 6-cylinder, etc) left much to be desired and was largely forced to use engines already in production.
His other weakness was not taking a linear approach to improving existing designs (which he basically lost interest in upon them reaching production), but rather preferred to focus on developing new designs that owed nothing to nor had much commonality with existing models. Being denied what he probably considered a personal career defining Gesamtkunstwerk moment with the BMC 9X / BMC 10X replacement for the Mini and 1100/1300 in OTL was one of a number of factors that led him to be bitter later in life (though the engine could not be produced in the form presented in with the 9X prototype's gearbox being unfavourably compared to the Mini, Mini Clubman and Autobianchi A112 - which is worth considering given the reputation of the OTL Austin Maxi's gearbox).
A pity in that respect. For all his talents he was a flawed individual in OTL whose excesses were not reigned in by management upon returning from Alvis to BMC, like his more accomplished Italian rival Dante Giacosa at Fiat he sought to develop cars as a complete work of art (or Gesamtkunstwerk) though his record in engine design (e.g. Nuffield Flat-Fours, Alvis V8, 9X 4-cylinder / 10X 6-cylinder, etc) left much to be desired and was largely forced to use engines already in production.
His other weakness was not taking a linear approach to improving existing designs (which he basically lost interest in upon them reaching production), but rather preferred to focus on developing new designs that owed nothing to nor had much commonality with existing models. Being denied what he probably considered a personal career defining Gesamtkunstwerk moment with the BMC 9X / BMC 10X replacement for the Mini and 1100/1300 in OTL was one of a number of factors that led him to be bitter later in life (though the engine could not be produced in the form presented in with the 9X prototype's gearbox being unfavourably compared to the Mini, Mini Clubman and Autobianchi A112 - which is worth considering given the reputation of the OTL Austin Maxi's gearbox).
Goodbye Mini Cooper, hello Mini Ionian!
Ok, I know it is difficult to build cars in Greece (not impossible though, there were a lot of small Greek car manufacturers in the past. ) But I'd like to imagine a semi-successful Greek automobile industry ITTL...
Loved the football section of this update!
Ok, I know it is difficult to build cars in Greece (not impossible though, there were a lot of small Greek car manufacturers in the past. ) But I'd like to imagine a semi-successful Greek automobile industry ITTL...
Loved the football section of this update!
There was BMC Turkey that was located in İzmir (remaining known as Smyrna in ATL), in better circumstances some alternate Greek version could have amounted to a company that also produced automobiles (especially if Issigonis still moved to the UK with his life following a similar OTL trajectory ITTL) though would ATL Greece possess a big enough car market to be viable domestically on a similar level to say post-war Spain (if not quite possessing the potential of OTL Turkey)? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMC_(Turkey)
Well if not cars I think trucks and tractors are very much needed in Greece at this point to mechanize the agricultural sector.After those being developed who knows maybe some cars would be produced as well.
I feel weird for Greece to have a Senate, it fells so unnatural for some reason although that might help stabilize the political system who's to say? At least they now are officially become a Republic.
Turkey got the head-start on the airplane construction and development, I don't like the sense of that and maybe it leads to a similar stride on the Greek side or else things are going south fast.
Liked the details on the football events and found interesting a Jewish team is organised in Thessaloniki.
I feel weird for Greece to have a Senate, it fells so unnatural for some reason although that might help stabilize the political system who's to say? At least they now are officially become a Republic.
Turkey got the head-start on the airplane construction and development, I don't like the sense of that and maybe it leads to a similar stride on the Greek side or else things are going south fast.
Liked the details on the football events and found interesting a Jewish team is organised in Thessaloniki.
Alex is heir to the largest engineering works in Anatolia. I don't see why he'd leave that to go work from someone else... That said he does own a big factory in a district politically important to the ruling Liberals in the middle of a period of rapid Greek industrialization. Greek industrial output grew by 234% in OTL between 1921-38... under worse economic conditions compared to TTL.
Truth to tell I was half inclined to keep Olympiakos and Ethnikos united TTL but in the end it seemed to me it was mostly due to the personal relations of a rather small list of individuals like the Andrianopoulos brothers, which likely remain unaffected. There are of course huge differences from the presence of the Greeks in Smyrna and Constantinople. No AEK and PAOK obviously but their parent Pera Club is an athletic powerhouse, and part of Greek sports. And of course Apollo and Panionios in Smyrna are far far stronger than OTL, right on par with Olympiakos and Panathinaikos in economic terms and influence arguably. Then you also have smaller but important teams. Chalkedon and Heracles Tataula in Constantinople for example...
There were quite a few Greek automotive industries in OTL, some actually did pretty well with domestic car designs, exports outside Greece and quite a bit of production. They went down in the 1980s for reasons to a large degree related to politics. For example Nissan's British operations came pretty close to being established in Volos instead in the mid 1980s but the effort was actively undermined. Spain or maybe Sweden should be reasonably good models for what's plausible long term...
Well as mentioned the Isigonis factory already got an order to assemble trucks for the army. What happens after that... stay tuned!
That was apparently the idea the biggest change from OTL is that I've effectively copied the Australian model of senators elected for 8 years with elections every 4 instead of the OTL of 9 years elected every 3. If for no other reason in self defence as having one election every 3 years for the senate means they would coincide with parliamentary elections only every 12 years and you'd need to cover on average one election every 2 years. So the greater British influence and Protopapadakis engineering background led to me copying Australia.
The Greek aircraft industry has actually been mentioned a few posts ago. It was established about a year early compared to OTL with British aid (just like OTL).
Macabi Salonica is very much historical, it exists to this day actually although it was best know for it boxing department Salamo Arouch for example played for it. TTL there is an niche for another reasonably strong team in Thessaloniki without PAOK and the influence of the Jewish community is likely to be stronger while inter-communal relations within the city are also quite better and the community likely to be intergating even faster than OTL, Thessaloniki has not received 100,000 destitute refugees TTL to strain relations...
From reading the Alec Issigonis Official Biography by Gillian Bardsley, his Anglophile father Constantine gained British Nationality / Passport (his brother Miltiades did not share his brother's Anglophilia preferring to remain Greek) and Alec always viewed himself as an English Gentlemen, his mother Hulda was also an Anglophile (who loved everything English whereas her sister Gertrude loved anything German*) and had a similar devotion to England that matched Constantine.
His father living longer would be fascinating though it is not clearly stated whether he fell victim to the 1922 Plague at the time or from something else.
*- To the point of the family nicknaming Gertrude "the Kaiserina" because of her devotion to Wilhelm II.
It seems many of the companies operating in the OTL Turkish automotive sector are mainly located in the Marmara Region, which is definitely a gain for ATL Greece down the road (do not know about the OTL Turkey based factories however).
In terms of peak car production OTL Spain ranks 9th with Turkey at 14th, ATL Greece being able to push closer to Spain and surpassing Italy would be interesting. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production
Last edited:
I wonder if we'll have some news about Cyprus... With Greece's successes, both military and economic, and the Turkocretans not being deported I guess Enosis will be a much bigger movement
The enosis movement is already huge..the issue is that even with the turco-cretans remaining the Taksim movement is going to form but it could be weaker that in otl
Anglophile and not Greek are different things of course. That said Greek-British ties are even closer TTL than they were OTL...
2019 numbers are of course skewed by heavy industry moving away to countries with relatively lower labour costs. Which is why Czechia or Slovakia or for that matter Turkey are producing more cars than Italy. That's why Sweden is a better model I think. If TTL Greece manages to be building half a million cars a year a century down the line I'd be more than happy. But that's far in the future. For all we know Greece by then may be third world with borders on the Olympus...
Cyprus for the time being remain a British colony, despite several requests by the Cypriots for union with Greece already and even two proposals in Britain (in 1916 and 1916) to concede Cyprus to Greece. Enosis is of course overwhelmingly supported by the Greek-Cypriots...
We should put what happened to the Turko-Cretans TTL into some perspective. There is a number that had converted to Christianity just like OTL, a very large number that migrated to Turkey after Crete was liberated in 1897 (and to a smaller degree before that) and the about 23,000 by 1921 that both remained Muslim and were mostly willing to accommodate themselves within Greece. It is this third group that remains TTL. I'm not certain this will be much altering the calculations of Turkish nationalists in Cyprus.