Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

On Ataturk. Since I am married to a Ataturkcu wife, and lived for almost a decade in Turkey and still have ataturkcu friends I have to be very careful at this issue. That said

1) I think he was a positive influence for many Anatolian and Balkan Muslims that ended up identifying as Turks
2) I think he was catastrophic for the Greek people and is a great enemy for them, if not the greatest since Alp Arslan. That said the Istanbul Rum and Istanbul Armenian communities do have positive images of him in the sense that they saw him as protective Sultan.
3) I agree with Lascaris that probably an oligarchic multiparty democracy could had worked in Turkey in 1923, and that he chose to impose popular autocracy, but autocracy. IMHO I tend to accept Andrew Mango's biography as the best, and Mango does paint the profile of a sometimes neurotic individual.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I blame him for the position that the army held in Turkish politics all the way to the 2000s. Now admittedly given how most of the inner circle running the show and the potential opposition were military men maybe this was to a degree inevitable, so instead on Kemal you have Karabekir, Inonu and Rauf Orbay alternating to power with Cakmak owning the army behind the scenes? But having the country run as a dictatorship, or if you will Salazar's Portugal with Turkish characteristics, from 1923 to after 1945 could hardly help in that aspect.
4) I think his choice to promote Turkism rather than a alternative and more inclusive Anatolian identity was a mistake Turks, and those living with Turks will suffer from for very long.
5) That said there are groups for whom history would had been worse if not for Ataturk.
i) Turkish Women, and even with caveats Kurdish Women. Yes the policies of social liberalization were top down, yes they did not affect all regions equally, yes the political liberty his regime brought was controlled, and any independent women voices repressed (i.e Nezihe Muhiddin), but the point is it did set early an extremely important foundation that made it possible for Turkish women to have opportunities that few women in the muslim world have. There is a reason why my archetypical image of CHP supporters are a coteries of 50-70 year old women, chatting happily over kahvatli. It is for that reason I agreed to have a portrait of his in the house (only rules 1) political portrait not military, 2) I always have something Greek next to it, in the apst poster of Averoff, now a print of Ai Laos)

ii) Muhacir (Balkan Muslim refugees and expellees of the period 1877-1980s). Call me cynical but I do not believe that a Entente collaborationist Ottoman goverment controlled by the likes of Damat Ferit Pasha or Ali Kemal would had done a very good job at accommodating and integrating the waves of Balkan Muslim refugees. A lot of people would had died dog's deaths, and I think the early Republic as bad as it was in many things did do better on this than an alternative Ottoman Empire collaborationist state.
My impression is that supporters of the regime profited more than a bit in the process. Then one does not preclude the other. After all the cynic in me would note that the government had the holdings of nearly 4 million Greeks and Armenians to parcel out. In that aspect an Ottoman alternative, that is not in control of Thrace and Ionia at the very least is starting from a worse material position.
That said he was a catastrophic enemy of Greeks and the Greek World, ending a rich and old huge part of it. Even if you reject the genocide label and argument, even if choose the "acts not sanctioned or ordered by Central Command" argument for a lot of the atrocities against Anatolian Greeks, just his patronage of Topal Osman, his legal protection of Nurredin Sakali Pasha, and post-1922 orders about Amele Tabur make him one of the worst enemies of the Greek people. He was in a way a better friend of Greece than of Greeks, if that makes sense.
He did make a conscious decision that detente with Greece was in Turkey's interest at the very time the Greeks were making the same decision. It worked out fairly well till 1955... and I have argued that a Turkey that in 1955 had not changed course over Cyprus would be ending with close influence into Greece by the present day.
 
1) Military control was inevitable. The CUP was the biggest mass political organization in the Ottoman times, and it was heavily military (the others were the Armenian political organizations and the Patriarchate). Again I do think a multiparty oligarchic system could work and his reaction was more neurosis than anything, but the point remains there is no way to avoid a heavy role of the military over Turkish politics. The military won the war. The only way you avoid that is if the Entente not closing the Parliament in 1918 (and hard to see how that could be avoided) giving thus power to the political wing of the CUP (Canbult etc, since it was clear Cakmak preferred at that point this to Ankara, he recalled Inonu remember, and Inonu obeyed despite Kemal telling him not to).

2)No question about it and studies abound that show how the system rewarded already powerful actors. That said do remember that pre-1923 muhacirs were ardent supporters of the CUP. Even if the loyalists got the lions share (and in the east powerful kurdish clan leaders), there was still something for muhacirs from 1923 and after.

3) Not sure about the close influence (as Britain-USA would remain pre-dominant), and I think the sea issues would had erupted anyway.

The point remains he was a friend of post-1923 Greece, not of Greeks.
 
Part 127
Donbass, August 13th, 1943

The Soviet Southwestern Front under Rodion Malinovsky went to the offensive. Within three days it would be joined by the Southern Front increasing the number of Soviet troops involved in the attack to over a million men.

Tirana, August 15th, 1943

An independent Albanian kingdom was proclaimed with German support in the capital of Albania. In the end fear of Greeks and Serbs had been the deciding factor for Albanian nationalists who feared Greek and Yugoslav victory would cost Albania the territorial gains made in 1940-41 and even lead to dismemberment of the country. Albanian help had allowed the Germans advancing from the south to meet the Greeks advancing from the south much faster than the Greeks had hoped, but neither this nor Balli Kombetar throwing its lot with the Germans stopped the Greek. Argyrokastron, Gjirocaster for the Albanians had been liberated already from August 11th and the Greeks were steadily advancing north. By now they had been joined by over 50,000 Italian soldiers, the German attempt to disarm the Italian army had failed spectacularly, out of the 117,000 Italian troops in Albania, 43,000 had been evacuated by the Italian navy, 22,000 disarmed with a few joining the Germans and the rest had thrown their lot with the Allies.

Diyarbakir, August 15th, 1943


The city fell to the British 9th Army much to the joy of its Kurdish and the dismay of its Turkish inhabitants. To its north two German corps, were holding the line and the path to the all important Ergani chrome mines. Much further west De Lattre's French were pushing north along the railroad towards Malatya while a handful of Morrocan goumiers tried to secure the passes of the Taurus and the road to Cilicia one ravine at a time. Turkish and German casualties were already over 31,000 men since the start of the offensive and keeping to mount...

Katerini, Macedonia, August 16th, 1943


The soldiers of the 143rd Gebirgsjäger Regiment had boarded trains in Erzurum a week earlier for the long journey west, to join the fighting in Macedonia. The Turkish general staff was not entirely happy over removing the 6th Gebirgs division, the last major German unit in the Caucasus front. But the front was quiet for the past several months with Soviet probes easily beaten back and reinforcements were sorely needed in Macedonia, which was just one of the major crises the German army had to deal with...

Peenemünde, August 17th, 1943


560 RAF bombers hit the rocket base. Extensive damage would delay rocket launches for two months and force the Germans to disperse rocket production. But unfortunately for the Allies, or perhaps fortunately given the huge amounts of resources funneled to it, the German ballistic missile program went on.

Lisbon, August 17th, 1943


The Portuguese government publicly announced it would allow Allied naval and air forces to use the Azores islands. It was a step short of joining the war, which the Salazar government was not inclined to do as long as the civil war went on in Spain. When the war was over? It would have to be seen. But it did not look as if it would take very much longer for the question to arise. The Spanish provisional government by now controlled two thirds of Spain and its army held an almost two to one numerical advantage over the Falangists.

Olympus, August 18th, 1943


A night attack by the 2/39 Euzone regiment drove the 99th Gebirgsjäger Regiment out of Sarantaporon in vicious close quarter fighting with grenade and bayonet. The Germans would counterattack at dawn but by then the Greeks had been reinforced by the French 5e Demi-Brigade de Chasseurs Alpins and beat the Germans back. The road to Macedonia was nearly but not quite yet open. But the Germans and the Bulgarians would continue to contest the ground step by step despite mounting casualties, it would take more than a week before the Allies managed to reach Servia and the Aliakmon river.

Kastoria, Macedonia, August 20th, 1943


The men of the Acqui division, were forced to retreat towards the town. The Italian divisions prior to the armistice had been pulled out of the front ostensibly at the request of general Ambrosio, in order to be moved back to Italy. It had proven... inconvenient after the armistice as the Italian 2nd Army in Macedonia had no direct link to the Allied forces in Thessaly. But if the Germans had hoped that this meant the Italian units would be easy prey they had been sorely disappointed. Further north in Yugoslavia the Italian 11th Army had been mostly disbanded with relative ease, even though nearly 24,000 men had managed to join the partisans. But in Greece after some initial incidents of the Germans forcibly disbanding or outright attacking Italian units, 113,000 out of the 2nd Army's 208,000, including entire divisions in some cases had openly declared for the Allies and fought back. Now the question was whether they would be able to hold out till the Allies attacking from the south managed to link with them. But Free Italians had no intention of surrendering. Not after a counterattack by the Alpini of the Taurinense division had recovered the bodies of over a thousand Italian soldiers who had earlier surrendered and the Germans had executed...

Kharkov, August 23rd, 1943


Soviet soldiers raised the red banner over Dzerzhinsky square. The fourth and last battle of Kharkov was over with the city at last liberated.

Chita, Trans-Baikal, August 24th, 1943


The men of the 209th Rifle Division begun boarding the trains, for the journey west. It would take almost two days just to reach Irkutsk 900 km to the west and much more to reach the final destination of the division in Armenia. It was hardly the only units that had received marching orders west. Over 130,000 men from the Far East were to reinforce Triandafilov's Caucasus front...

Albania, August 26th, 1943


The Greek army crossed the pre-war Greek-Albanian border capturing Tepelene. The Allied advance was faster in the centre of the front compared to the flanks, on the western coast the Germans and Albanians still held Himara despite what amounted to all out revolt from the local Greek population and naval support, but no matter delays was steadily gaining ground.
 
I’m curious why you switched the locations of the Italian 11th and 2nd Armies. Is it just because General Vecchiarelli surrendered without firing a shot so you put him further north where his actions caused less harm? Or is it something else? Also has the Italian 2nd Army lived up to their OTL reputation or have they been more … gentle in Greece? If so there might be issues when they meet the Allies. But it’s looking like a lot more of the rank and file abroad have been able to escape their OTL fates of death or going to the camps. The fifth army and the second army are a huge boost of manpower in the Balkans for the Allies, so I wonder if we’re going to see even more Greeks shift to Anatolia?

Speaking of Anatolia, it seems like the race is on in the East with the Russians looking to make a push through the Caucuses. The Western Allies have a big head start already though, so I don’t think they’re getting to the Mediterranean. I’m wondering if Russia just annexes what they take instead of trying to set up a separate state. I guess it depends on how far they get.

And you still haven’t said anything about North Italy! You’re driving me mad with the suspense.
 
Speaking of Anatolia, it seems like the race is on in the East with the Russians looking to make a push through the Caucuses. The Western Allies have a big head start already though, so I don’t think they’re getting to the Mediterranean. I’m wondering if Russia just annexes what they take instead of trying to set up a separate state. I guess it depends on how far they get.
Kaliningrad on the Back Sea?
 
I’m curious why you switched the locations of the Italian 11th and 2nd Armies. Is it just because General Vecchiarelli surrendered without firing a shot so you put him further north where his actions caused less harm? Or is it something else? Also has the Italian 2nd Army lived up to their OTL reputation or have they been more … gentle in Greece? If so there might be issues when they meet the Allies.
Because back in TTL 1940 Yugoslavia was invaded and conquered by the 2nd Army (and 7th Army from Albania) which subsequently went on to invade Greek Macedonia as it advanced south after the retreating Yugoslav army. This though meant that if the Italian 2nd and 7th armies are the ones fighting in the Greek front since November 1940 you need an army controlling the rear areas occupied in Yugoslavia. Hence 11th Army.
 
European Greece is almost free at last! All but parts of Northern Epirus as well as Thrace left on this side of the Hellespont. The fall of Diyarbakir is a significant win for the Allies on the Southern Turkish Front along with advancing on Malatya and the Taurus Mountains. Given the increasing Allied presence here, removing an entire German division is bad news for Turkey (though are the two german units still blocking the way to Ergani or were they recalled as well?) Triandafilov must be happy though. Have the Iranians pushed the Turks back to pre-war borders yet or no? Things are definitely shaping up, can't wait to see what's next!
 
Tirana, August 15th, 1943
I'm not surprised by it and considering the Italian army is there with the Greeks things should go much better than otl for the allies. However what group of partisans takes over Albania at the end?

Also I don't think the local Albanians would see the Greeks as liberators at all which would really complicate things, especially as they have to clear out the entire Balkans. Also Yugoslavia will be a bitch to deal with considering the various partisan groups.
Lisbon, August 17th, 1943
Things are mostly the same as otl but I guess the Azores would be more quickly be used by the allies ittl?
Olympus, August 18th, 1943
The passes of Olympus are open for the allied armies to finally march through! I'd think that would further force the German army to choose between keeping their occupation zone or leaving, and I'd think eventually they'd have to leave. Bulgaria wouldn't be happy but considering the WAllies advantages there I don't think the Germans would have a choice, especially as the Soviets continue their offensive in Ukraine. We'd probably see an earlier full liberation of Greece and the communist partisans prob can't give proper resistance to the army as the Greek gov ittl has all the legitimacy it would want.
Kastoria, Macedonia, August 20th, 1943
If they keep the town long enough for the Greeks to link up it'd be great. Explaining that they're keeping the town for Greece would be quite ironic tho especially when they actually leave the town when the Greeks get to it.
 
What happened with the Italian air bases and the Italian pilots/planes? Cause, I'd guess that at least some of them would have either flight to the Allied Lines and interned but some of them in the Italian resistance pockets, would be forced to keep fighting/defending their bases...
 
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Kaliningrad on the Back Sea?
Sounds like a Chernograd. :p
More seriously, I think that the city renamed to kaliningrad would need monarchist connotations to its name.
Sivas/Sebasteia, Niksar/Neocesarea, or Kayseri could work at least in terms of connotation...
 
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European Greece is almost free at last! All but parts of Northern Epirus as well as Thrace left on this side of the Hellespont.
Not yet, the Allies have just begun to enter Macedonia (Thessaloniki has not been liberated yet) and Greek Thrace along with Constantinople is a big area. However the road to full liberation has just been cleared, we might see the entire Greek and Turkish fronts collapsing for the Axis until the end of 1943 (and thus freeing a lot of manpower for a thrust towards Central Europe through Yugoslavia or for the Italian front or even for the invasion/liberation in France).
 
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Mmm even if Turkey were to surrender at the end of September, purely hypothetical, wouldn't a certain amount of divisions have to remain in Turkey for occupation duties / to ensure that Turkey doesn't pull a fast one? So at best, the allies could pull like 67% of their divisions to the German front, right?*

*Numbers / Percents are total guesses, I don't actually know
 
European Greece is almost free at last! All but parts of Northern Epirus as well as Thrace left on this side of the Hellespont.
The Allies are still here. The have gained some very important ground but they are still a bit away from Thessaloniki, which is important not just for being the third largest city of the country (Constantinople not counting) but also for her port and being the south end of the railroads to central Europe. And as can be seen in the map the terrain is not exactly easy...

macedonia august 1943.jpg


The fall of Diyarbakir is a significant win for the Allies on the Southern Turkish Front along with advancing on Malatya and the Taurus Mountains. Given the increasing Allied presence here, removing an entire German division is bad news for Turkey (though are the two german units still blocking the way to Ergani or were they recalled as well?) Triandafilov must be happy though. Have the Iranians pushed the Turks back to pre-war borders yet or no? Things are definitely shaping up, can't wait to see what's next!
There are 5 (much reduced) German divisions fighting in the Turkish southern front, about 84,000 men in total at the start of Slim's and De Lattre's offensive. They can't be recalled on one hand because to be blunt they are holding out for dear life, the Allies have 800 tanks to... none there and second because holding out the mines for as long as possible is of absolute strategic importance to Germany. Turkey is her biggest chrome supplier and Ergani on of the most important sources of chromite. Now most inconveniently from the German point of view several of the main chromite producing areas of the country from Ergani, to Mugla to Bursa start to get inconveniently close to invading Allied armies...

I'm not surprised by it and considering the Italian army is there with the Greeks things should go much better than otl for the allies. However what group of partisans takes over Albania at the end?

Also I don't think the local Albanians would see the Greeks as liberators at all which would really complicate things, especially as they have to clear out the entire Balkans. Also Yugoslavia will be a bitch to deal with considering the various partisan groups.
At a fair guess there will be 10 types of Albanian political groups. The ones that understand that the Allies and winning and oh dear the Greeks and the Serbs are on their side and too important to sell out and the ones that do not. What happens to post-war Albania depends on who adapts to this and to the fact that there is a large Greek army invading liberating the country.

Things are mostly the same as otl but I guess the Azores would be more quickly be used by the allies ittl?

The passes of Olympus are open for the allied armies to finally march through! I'd think that would further force the German army to choose between keeping their occupation zone or leaving, and I'd think eventually they'd have to leave.
One of the passes and the Allies still have to cross the Aliakmon, then mount Vermion, the Axios river...
Bulgaria wouldn't be happy but considering the WAllies advantages there I don't think the Germans would have a choice, especially as the Soviets continue their offensive in Ukraine. We'd probably see an earlier full liberation of Greece and the communist partisans prob can't give proper resistance to the army as the Greek gov ittl has all the legitimacy it would want.

If they keep the town long enough for the Greeks to link up it'd be great. Explaining that they're keeping the town for Greece would be quite ironic tho especially when they actually leave the town when the Greeks get to it.
The Greek army has about half a million men and growing. By comparison the Greek Communist partisans in August 1943 are about 6,000 out of a total of roughly 20,000 all over occupied Greece.
What happened with the Italian air bases and the Italian pilots/planes? Cause, I'd guess that at least some of them would have either flight to the Allied Lines and interned but some of them in the Italian resistance pockets, would be forced to keep fighting/defending their bases...
All of the above. Some were captured along their aircraft. Some were fast and escaped to Allied lines, many of these sooner or later end up fighting with the Allies, some have to fight with the army. Some stay loyal to their German allies.
Sounds like a Chernograd. :p
More seriously, I think that the city renamed to kaliningrad would need monarchist connotations to its name.
Sivas/Sebasteia, Niksar/Neocesarea, or Kayseri could work at least in terms of connotation...
Methinks Czargrad is... politically unacceptable. As a name.
Perhaps, a new, Stalingrad on the Black Sea...
Perhaps, then perhaps not. :angel:
Not yet, the Allies have just begun to enter Macedonia (Thessaloniki has not been liberated yet) and Greek Thrace along with Constantinople is a big area. However the road to full liberation has just been cleared, we might see the entire Greek and Turkish fronts collapsing for the Axis until the end of 1943 (and thus freeing a lot of manpower for a thrust towards Central Europe through Yugoslavia or for the Italian front or even for the invasion/liberation in France).
An Allied thrust through Yugoslavia will be also dependent on logistics. The map here is indicative of the problems.

Yugoslavia_Railway-Lines_1940.jpg

Mmm even if Turkey were to surrender at the end of September, purely hypothetical, wouldn't a certain amount of divisions have to remain in Turkey for occupation duties / to ensure that Turkey doesn't pull a fast one? So at best, the allies could pull like 67% of their divisions to the German front, right?*

*Numbers / Percents are total guesses, I don't actually know
Some forces need to remain in the Middle East and Anatolia for certain even after a potential Turkish surrender. That said the Western Allies alone have 594,000 fighting in Anatolia at the moment. The forces remaining after a hypothetical Turkish armistice would be significantly smaller. Of course if a full occupation of Anatolia is needed that would be taking up hundreds of thousands of troops. Which is a negotiating advantage of shorts for the Turks.
 
Especially as after the expulsion of the Pontic Greeks, the only sizable minority left are the Laz, who are basically Islamized Georgians ethno-linguistically and culturally.
To go by the Turkish 1935 census there were 63,253 Laz and 57,325 Georgians in Turkey at the time. Even assuming a degree of under-representation, the number is small. You can add Muslim Pontic Greek speakers but even if you go by the most optimistic estimation of 190,000 in 1914 (doubtful IMO) but you still are at low levels...
 
To go by the Turkish 1935 census there were 63,253 Laz and 57,325 Georgians in Turkey at the time. Even assuming a degree of under-representation, the number is small. You can add Muslim Pontic Greek speakers but even if you go by the most optimistic estimation of 190,000 in 1914 (doubtful IMO) but you still are at low levels...
This means that emptied due the post-war deportation will be colonized by Georgians, Armenians and Russians. Also Azerbaijani population will remain after the WW2. It will very big barrel with gunpowder when USSR will in crisis
 
At a fair guess there will be 10 types of Albanian political groups. The ones that understand that the Allies and winning and oh dear the Greeks and the Serbs are on their side and too important to sell out and the ones that do not. What happens to post-war Albania depends on who adapts to this and to the fact that there is a large Greek army invading liberating the country.
Albania seems like it'll be a clusterfuck by the end of WWII. Considering there'll be multiple groups that would hate each other Greece would have to be careful with the country.
One of the passes and the Allies still have to cross the Aliakmon, then mount Vermion, the Axios river...
I do think that the Greeks do have the position to break through it all and get back to it's lands before long. Maybe early 1944?
The Greek army has about half a million men and growing. By comparison the Greek Communist partisans in August 1943 are about 6,000 out of a total of roughly 20,000 all over occupied Greece.
Yeah the Communists won't be able to do anything and I'd think if the Communists attempted to rebel it'll just make the Greek populous hate communism more.
Perhaps, then perhaps not. :angel:
I hope it isn't just Stalingrad considering that we would have multiple Stalingrads. Neocaesara would work well.
This means that emptied due the post-war deportation will be colonized by Georgians, Armenians and Russians. Also Azerbaijani population will remain after the WW2. It will very big barrel with gunpowder when USSR will in crisis
I wouldn't be surprised if a new state of mixed ancestry between Georgians, Armenians and Russians settle the new lands the Russians took from the Turks would form out of the new lands. It could get as messy as Yugoslavia when the USSR collapses. Also especially if the Laz keeps their Muslim identity while not wanting to be part of turkey anymore.
 
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