True. I was thinking pragmatically. But I do think the Croatian Nazis would get subsumed by someone or just get wrecked by the partisans. A three way civil war seems possible but the Croatians do seem vulnerable to being cut off. Tbf I'm learning WWII history as I read along so yep.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I could see post WWII being seen as a really bloody decade as the effects of WWII continue right after the war officially ends and the proxy wars of the cold war just immediately begin instead of having any breathers.
A German civil war would be interesting because I could see the Wallies wanting to garauntee Pomerania and silesia for Germany and the USSR with Poland really disliking it while agreeing with the dissolution of Prussia. I could see Pomerania being a very tense subject.
Well, I think that the Italians will at least hold Rome with some help from the Allies (with Italy being more prepared than in OTL it is very likely that Operation Giant II will not be cancelled) and force the Germans to the Roman switch line or even to the Trasimene Line. I also hope that the presence of the Aquila will allow the battleship Roma to survive the War.
I would like to make a hypothesis if you don't mind: I personally don't think that Balbo would be allowed to remain Commander in Chief in Africa after the disaster that Operation Compass was TTL (even worse than in OTL). I personally think that he would be relieved from that position but remain governor of Libya due to his seniority within the Fascist Movement. In OTL Mussolini had no problems sacking Badoglio for the disaster in Greece so I don't see it as too unreasonable
I think that it is reasonable to assume that some kind of coup or epuration will happen in Croatia after the start of TTL Operation Achse in order to remove the pro-Italian administration and replace it with a pro-german one (a smaller Operation Margarethe)
Just for curiosity; what has happened to the Illustrious and Formidable ITTL after the battle of Cythera? Assuming that the carrier Formidable was still damaged like in OTL and then sent to the Pacific ( like you stated earlier) did Illustrious remain at Alexandria or was she transferred to another theatre? If not I find it strange that she wasn't targeted during TTL X° Flottiglia MAS raid on Alexandria.
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The Italians in OTL had 55,000 men and 200 tanks. They lost Rome to an enemy force of 26,000... which is indicating numbers were not the problem.
I very much doubt Balbo had the military background to be able to serve as commander in chief for real he ended WW1 as a captain in the reserves. That said losing the title post Compass makes sense and conveniently also works as an additional factor aside from not sending 1st Armoured brigade to Greece for the relatively greater success of the British early on. I like it.
It's under Pavelic and Pavelic had no problem to closely work with the Germans. OTOH it took till November 1944 to unify the Ustashe and the Home guard into a single army and for that matter the three mixed German-Croat divisions were apparently more effective. TTL it seems reasonable to assume the pressure of the Balkan front would be bringing this earlier.
Illustrious is I believe mentioned last time in part 90 during the battle of Malta in December 1941. Which tactically was no British victory, though strategically it was a different matter.
In that case, Graziani or Badoglio could still be sent to Africa while Balbo is assigned"control of the Lybian formations for the defence of the colony"
I missed that. But the thing is that if the Illustrious was in port like mentioned in the post (she sailed on the 25th of December and the attack occurred on the 13th) why wasn't she targeted during the raid on Alexandria? In OTL carriers were the first priority target and only after realizing that none were in port did the Italians decide to attack the battleships (in a similar way to what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor).
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Part 126
Syracuse, 21:00 PM August 9th, 1943
Sante Garibaldi entered the radio room. Eisenhower's message and Balbo's one confirming the surrender had been competed hardly half an hour ago.
"My fellow Italians the war is not over. Italy has just joined the forces of freedom. But German troops, brought in by the traitor Mussolini are still on sacred Italian soil. Make no mistake the Germans are not going to leave just because the government did the right thing and ended Mussolini's war. it is our duty to break their shackles on Italy. As it is the duty of every Italian soldier outside Italy to fight for freedom. Mussolini in his madness joined the very people against whom the nation fought four wars of independence to attack our brothers in arms. Restoring Italy's honor demands you follow the examples of our forefathers from Giuseppe Garibaldi to the Count of Santarosa who shed their blood for the freedom of France and Greece!"
Would the speech have much effect or even be heard by many? Even if a single soldier heeded the call it would be more than if it hadn't been made at all...
Rome, August 9th, 1943
General Taylor, second in command of the 82nd Airborne Division, had been distinctly unimpressed by his Italian counterparts and their fear of the Germans. He would not endanger his men for them. His recommendation to wait on executing operation Giant to airdrop the division in Rome had been transmitted to Allied headquarters.
Olympus, 02:00 AM August 10th, 1943
Slightly less than six hours had passed since Dwight Eisenhower had gone over the airwaves to announce to the world the surrender of Italy when the night horizon lit up from one end of Thessaly to the other as 1,700 Allied guns opened up against the German and Bulgarian positions. Operation Herakles had begun. Even further west the Greek divisions of the Epirus Army Detachment were surging north just as the German XXI Mountain Corps surged south to reinforce its units already in contact with the Greeks and secure Albania and its important mineral and oil production with the Italian 7th army caught in the middle.
Salerno, August 10th, 1943
Hundreds of Allied ships carried the US 5th army, with the British X Corps under its command, ashore. Plans of making landings further north to directly secure Rome had been decided against due to fears of getting out of Allied air cover. Instead the Allies would take Salerno and advance north, hopefully the Italians could hold out till the Allied divisions reached them. But the German XIV Panzer Corps defending the area would prove surprisingly resilient with a counterattack by the 16th Panzer division threatening to destroy the Allied bridgehead before the massed fire from French and British cruisers and battleships supporting the landings forced it back. The initial crisis over the Allied bridgehead steadily expanded and reinforcements were brought in. By August 19th nine Allied divisions and 170,000 men were ashore.
Taranto, August 10th, 1943
The landings here were a mostly British affair, the sole exceptions being the Greek and Polish warships with the landing fleet and the Greek 34th Infantry Regiment coming ashore. British forces advanced in the face of only limited resistance. Kesserling was already evacuating Calabria and Apulia hoping to establish a defensive line further north from Salerno to Bari. The Italian attempt to hold onto Naples till the Allies came would be crushed after two days of fighting. But Bari would hold out while the Legnano, Mantova and Piceno divisions joined the allies.
Zagreb, Independent State of Croatia, August 10th, 1943
If the Germans had any worries about the stance Ante Pavelic's regime would be taking it would be immediately dispelled and the Croatian collaborationist regime proclaimed its loyalty to Germany and ordered the Ustashe and the Croatian Home Guard to occupy Italian Dalmatia and help the German forces in Yugoslavia disarm the Italians. But the occupation of Dalmatia would be anything but uncontested as the Yugoslav partisans moved there taking the arms of surrendering Italian units, with many Italian soldiers and in some cases entire units joining them.
Golcuk naval base, Turkey, August 10th, 1943
Turkish marines stormed the handful of Italian ships in the base as the cruiser Yuavuz Sultan Selim, ironically built in Italy like most of the Turkish navy, menaced the ships from right outside the base. Keeping the Italian ships in the fight would be useful. The Turkish navy had not made any serious foray in the Aegean since December 1941, against the increasing numbers of Allied warships it would had amounted to suicide. But it was having a rather more successful war against the Soviets in the Black sea.
North of Sardinia, August 10th, 1943
A Fritz X guided bomb hit the battleship Roma heavily damaging her and killing among others admiral Bergamini. But despite the damage the massive ship shrugged off the hit and continued sailing south, Re.2000 fighters launched from Aquila would chase the Germans off before more damage could be done. The fleet would reach Malta on August 11th and surrender to the Allies.
Rome, August 11th, 1943
Rome was being held of elements of 6 divisions, two of them armored with 55,000 men and 200 tanks including some modern P26 ones. But the loyalties of at least the Littorio armoured division, manned by former Blackshirts was suspect and the Italian command for the most part disorganized and indecisive. Thus the forces dispatched by Kesserling had managed to secure the city despite having no more than 26,000 men and the spirited defense put out by the Ariete division under general Raffaele Cadorna to the north of the city. But the Italian government had been able to escape the fall of Rome and so had most of the men of the Ariete, Sassari and Piacenza divisions.
Corfu island August 12th, 1943
A few months earlier the sight of the battliship Impero, even unfinished and her escorts from Trieste would had been a source of fear. Now the Corfiots made jokes that the Impero was not so imperial as the Italian squadron entered the harbor, to be interned.
Ajaccio, Corsica, August 13th, 1943
The island became the first part of mainland France to be formally liberated as elements of the French army entered the port unopposed. No German forces were present in either Sardinia or Corsica which had such passed to the allies without a shot.
Hotel Campo Imperatore, Gran Sasso, Apennine mountains Italy, August 13th, 1943
Two weeks earlier Benito Mussolini had been moved to Gran Sasso, the second highest peak in Italy, guarded by two hundred carabinieri. While Hitler had ordered to prepare plans to liberate his fellow dictator these had not been set in motion right away as Italy remained in the war. But as soon as the news of the Italian surrender had come out the orders to proceed with the escape plan. The German Fallschirmjäger and SS commandos had landed with gliders on the peak and captured the hotel without firing a single shot. Then Mussolini had boarded a Fi156 aircraft that had landed on the peak to be moved away. Otto Skorzeny, the commander of the SS troops would also board the plane despite the misgivings of the pilot to escort the duce. The small plane took off, then overweight and unable to gain enough speed crashed below. None aboard survived.
Sante Garibaldi entered the radio room. Eisenhower's message and Balbo's one confirming the surrender had been competed hardly half an hour ago.
"My fellow Italians the war is not over. Italy has just joined the forces of freedom. But German troops, brought in by the traitor Mussolini are still on sacred Italian soil. Make no mistake the Germans are not going to leave just because the government did the right thing and ended Mussolini's war. it is our duty to break their shackles on Italy. As it is the duty of every Italian soldier outside Italy to fight for freedom. Mussolini in his madness joined the very people against whom the nation fought four wars of independence to attack our brothers in arms. Restoring Italy's honor demands you follow the examples of our forefathers from Giuseppe Garibaldi to the Count of Santarosa who shed their blood for the freedom of France and Greece!"
Would the speech have much effect or even be heard by many? Even if a single soldier heeded the call it would be more than if it hadn't been made at all...
Rome, August 9th, 1943
General Taylor, second in command of the 82nd Airborne Division, had been distinctly unimpressed by his Italian counterparts and their fear of the Germans. He would not endanger his men for them. His recommendation to wait on executing operation Giant to airdrop the division in Rome had been transmitted to Allied headquarters.
Olympus, 02:00 AM August 10th, 1943
Slightly less than six hours had passed since Dwight Eisenhower had gone over the airwaves to announce to the world the surrender of Italy when the night horizon lit up from one end of Thessaly to the other as 1,700 Allied guns opened up against the German and Bulgarian positions. Operation Herakles had begun. Even further west the Greek divisions of the Epirus Army Detachment were surging north just as the German XXI Mountain Corps surged south to reinforce its units already in contact with the Greeks and secure Albania and its important mineral and oil production with the Italian 7th army caught in the middle.
Salerno, August 10th, 1943
Hundreds of Allied ships carried the US 5th army, with the British X Corps under its command, ashore. Plans of making landings further north to directly secure Rome had been decided against due to fears of getting out of Allied air cover. Instead the Allies would take Salerno and advance north, hopefully the Italians could hold out till the Allied divisions reached them. But the German XIV Panzer Corps defending the area would prove surprisingly resilient with a counterattack by the 16th Panzer division threatening to destroy the Allied bridgehead before the massed fire from French and British cruisers and battleships supporting the landings forced it back. The initial crisis over the Allied bridgehead steadily expanded and reinforcements were brought in. By August 19th nine Allied divisions and 170,000 men were ashore.
Taranto, August 10th, 1943
The landings here were a mostly British affair, the sole exceptions being the Greek and Polish warships with the landing fleet and the Greek 34th Infantry Regiment coming ashore. British forces advanced in the face of only limited resistance. Kesserling was already evacuating Calabria and Apulia hoping to establish a defensive line further north from Salerno to Bari. The Italian attempt to hold onto Naples till the Allies came would be crushed after two days of fighting. But Bari would hold out while the Legnano, Mantova and Piceno divisions joined the allies.
Zagreb, Independent State of Croatia, August 10th, 1943
If the Germans had any worries about the stance Ante Pavelic's regime would be taking it would be immediately dispelled and the Croatian collaborationist regime proclaimed its loyalty to Germany and ordered the Ustashe and the Croatian Home Guard to occupy Italian Dalmatia and help the German forces in Yugoslavia disarm the Italians. But the occupation of Dalmatia would be anything but uncontested as the Yugoslav partisans moved there taking the arms of surrendering Italian units, with many Italian soldiers and in some cases entire units joining them.
Golcuk naval base, Turkey, August 10th, 1943
Turkish marines stormed the handful of Italian ships in the base as the cruiser Yuavuz Sultan Selim, ironically built in Italy like most of the Turkish navy, menaced the ships from right outside the base. Keeping the Italian ships in the fight would be useful. The Turkish navy had not made any serious foray in the Aegean since December 1941, against the increasing numbers of Allied warships it would had amounted to suicide. But it was having a rather more successful war against the Soviets in the Black sea.
North of Sardinia, August 10th, 1943
A Fritz X guided bomb hit the battleship Roma heavily damaging her and killing among others admiral Bergamini. But despite the damage the massive ship shrugged off the hit and continued sailing south, Re.2000 fighters launched from Aquila would chase the Germans off before more damage could be done. The fleet would reach Malta on August 11th and surrender to the Allies.
Rome, August 11th, 1943
Rome was being held of elements of 6 divisions, two of them armored with 55,000 men and 200 tanks including some modern P26 ones. But the loyalties of at least the Littorio armoured division, manned by former Blackshirts was suspect and the Italian command for the most part disorganized and indecisive. Thus the forces dispatched by Kesserling had managed to secure the city despite having no more than 26,000 men and the spirited defense put out by the Ariete division under general Raffaele Cadorna to the north of the city. But the Italian government had been able to escape the fall of Rome and so had most of the men of the Ariete, Sassari and Piacenza divisions.
Corfu island August 12th, 1943
A few months earlier the sight of the battliship Impero, even unfinished and her escorts from Trieste would had been a source of fear. Now the Corfiots made jokes that the Impero was not so imperial as the Italian squadron entered the harbor, to be interned.
Ajaccio, Corsica, August 13th, 1943
The island became the first part of mainland France to be formally liberated as elements of the French army entered the port unopposed. No German forces were present in either Sardinia or Corsica which had such passed to the allies without a shot.
Hotel Campo Imperatore, Gran Sasso, Apennine mountains Italy, August 13th, 1943
Two weeks earlier Benito Mussolini had been moved to Gran Sasso, the second highest peak in Italy, guarded by two hundred carabinieri. While Hitler had ordered to prepare plans to liberate his fellow dictator these had not been set in motion right away as Italy remained in the war. But as soon as the news of the Italian surrender had come out the orders to proceed with the escape plan. The German Fallschirmjäger and SS commandos had landed with gliders on the peak and captured the hotel without firing a single shot. Then Mussolini had boarded a Fi156 aircraft that had landed on the peak to be moved away. Otto Skorzeny, the commander of the SS troops would also board the plane despite the misgivings of the pilot to escort the duce. The small plane took off, then overweight and unable to gain enough speed crashed below. None aboard survived.
Guess the Italian Social Republic (or equivalent entity) is going to be even less legitimate than OTL.
A slightly more successful Italian surrender with a less legitimate ISR might have some interesting butterflies for the Italian Campaign. And I'm curious about the Turkish-Soviet naval engagements, you mentioned. Operation Herakles nice symbol, Thessaly might be a slog fest but I wonder if the Greeks or Germans are faster in Epirus. Excellent as always Las!
Operation Heracles is something that I'm definitely interested in, considering that the Italians have surrendered and Epirus is now a very mobile front. Greece could do well considering the Germans have to fight three fronts at the same time even with Bulgarian assistance.
Seeing the slight changes like a few Italian ships being taken in by the Wallies and the Turks is very interesting too. Would the Soviets be less successful in Europe ittl?
Seeing the slight changes like a few Italian ships being taken in by the Wallies and the Turks is very interesting too. Would the Soviets be less successful in Europe ittl?
I can’t help but notice you didn’t mention anything about North Italy. Maybe that’s because nothing changed and Rommel had another cakewalk. But Garibaldi’s speech gives me hope that a few more officer in the Italian army were either better prepared or found their courage listening to him. Particularly in the fifth army. Because if they hadn’t all surrendered , Caracciola has a decent shot of holding the area for a bit, or at least being a constant thorn in the Germans side. Being the only General North of Rome who kept his head, I hope he has a better fate in this universe than having to dissolve his army due to it collapsing around him.
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Very interested to see where the front lines end up here, an allied push in the west Balkans could very much be a big problem for everything axis east of that, especially in Macedonia.
I don't really know a lot about things like this, but what are the odds that the Greeks just.... keep it?
That's a pretty significant change and a pretty significant failure for the Germans. It's also hilarious.
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I hate to reply to something so old, but, prey tell, what else did that son of a bitch do to become a Turkish "Hero"? I suppose Ataturk no being able to pull victory from the jaws of defeat will probably lead to people looking for other people with...checkered* backgrounds to claim as national heroes, but a dude who skinned a "boy" alive?! (Also, after clicking on the wikipedia page, it talked about a guy born in 1899 and makes only mentions being accused of instigating the Pogrom in Istanbul. Not that a 20-year-old can't commit war crimes, but it does seem awfully young to be any sort of officer who'd have been noted as being a part of the genocides in the period, rather than a common foot soldier who took part but who have largely been forgotten in favor of focusing on their leaders who order/goaded/encouraged them to. Basically, I don't know what to think, and this is the internet so I don't want to jump to any conclusions one way or another.)
*and by that, I of course mean "committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, and not only allowed, but actively participated and encouraged ethnic cleansings and genocide, and largely got off scott free, because sometimes there truly is no justice in the world."
Same way with OTL... was a leader of Kuva i Miliye guerillas in the Meander valley against the Greek army. Including his erm treatment of the Greek boy scouts in Aydin.
He was the prime minister so it happened on his watch and certainly the military regime that overthrew him blamed him for the pogrom. Post that I'm inclimed to believe there is more than sufficient evidence of state instigation of the pogrom. Of course given that the so called deep state was around back at the time who was complicit and whether the generals found it convenient after the fact to blame only Menderes for the pogrom is a different question.
Oh that's pretty simple to explain actually. Son of a very wealthy landowner with extensive land in the area were he played guerrilla, he was called up as a reserve officer in WW1, though fell ill and did not go to the front. Then come 1919 he is already an officer and even more importantly in a wealthy family of influence. Where I to make a guess most of his initial followers were retainers and tenant farmers of the family following the lead of the local notable. And if this sounds pretty feudal... it's because it is.
Were I to be a cynic I would note that an accomplice of the Armenian genocide became president of the League of Nations in 1937...
If that isn't one of the most ap summaries of the LoN I don't know what is.
She's an old girl, but her refit gave her a new lease on life, and every pound of steel in her hull, from the bottom of the keel to the top of the fummel, has the smell of Turkish steel and ships ingrained into her memory, so she can better find them and hunt them down.
Unironically Averof will always be a Gigachad in my mind. Can any other ship say that they single-handedly secured naval dominance, which also ensured the land war would be victorious?
The meme below it always cracks me up. Good times. Averof is a chad ship indeed.
It'd be good for the ship to be a museum ship after the war and be kept as a living piece of history of getting Turks off Greek land.
Tbf we're nearing WWII and I'm really stoked for it! I really wanna see how the borders are delineated.
Well assuming Khalkhin Gol happened more or less the same way as it did IRL, which considering that we're focusing on Greece and the PoD is recent enough and far enough away to basically do nothing to Japan I'd bet a lot of money one it did, then yes, the Soviets can be pretty confident that Japan will leave them alone.
Besides, if their intelligence is good enough, they'll know that the IJA doesn't consider the USSR that big a threat--at least not compared to those dogs in the IJN!
Who is this? What are you trying to say with this picture? I have several questions.
It is a picture of Kurt Waldheim. His Wikipedia entry should give you a flavour.