I was learning about living American cultures such as the Gullahs, the Texas Germans, Louisiana French people and so on, and had an idea. I challenge the site-goers to envision, as best they can, a prolonged, migratory contact between the Old World and the New, at any point in history they desire, that minimizes the amount of genocide and violent colonialism as possible without necessarily precluding the possibility of migrants establishing settlements and trading with the natives. Ideally the point of divergence would be earlier than 1492 or, perhaps, envisioned as part of a history where the Old World has changed enough that the transfer of people and the mobilization of imperialism is much slower than OTL.
AHC: Prolonged Contact with the New World and/or Australia w/out Imperialistic Colonialism
- Thread starter Isfendil
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Is there a good way to reduce the effectiveness of warfare tech while simultaneously increasing navigation and seafaring tech?
I'm imagining a culture that is excellent at navigation/seafaring, has a source of wealth, and quasi-religious drive to fund expeditions beyond the horizons. Something *mumble* something early Polynesians who spread their amazing seafaring skills around the globe in a brief but technologically-important Golden Age?
I'm imagining a culture that is excellent at navigation/seafaring, has a source of wealth, and quasi-religious drive to fund expeditions beyond the horizons. Something *mumble* something early Polynesians who spread their amazing seafaring skills around the globe in a brief but technologically-important Golden Age?
Also Phoenicians. Essentially one needs to find a way to cause an enormous population boom in Phoenician territories, prompting them to spread.
Polynesians are also amazing for this, I wonder if there is no way that more technologies can be visited upon them before they embark on their grand journey. It started 3000 years ago unfortunately so not likely, but perhaps possible?
Hm. Maybe give the Phoenicians a huge population boom and find a reason that Iberia is an amazingly attractive place to settle? With a population centered in Iberia or Morocco, it makes the differences Med/Atlantic differences easier to... navigate, if you will
Alternatively, make a Phoenician intellectual/merchant elite (maybe a group of exiles from a destroyed Phoenician home) incredibly influential in an advanced/populous, agrarian Iberian or Moroccan society?
I'm not sure if you realize how much the Atlantic is big for any ancient or medieval culture : while Pacific is clustered with islands (altough far less in its eastern part), Altantic Ocean have very few points that would allow sustained contacts before naval technology would be advanced enough filling the gap, and I'm meaning oceanic seafare there.
Thinking that Phoenician seafare of classical Antiquity, which was essentially a coastal, inner sea and relatively easy to supply navigation, could be fitting a transoceanic journey not just once, but enough to allow direct sustainable transmission would be like arguing that, well if Greeks could knock down Persians, they could pull a British Empire-like imperialism.
it's just, I'm sorry to have to say it, nonsensical.
For what matter any rocgnizable European history, you don't have the technology to go trough sustainable transoceanic contacts before the mid-XIVth century, at best.
It happened in southern Iberia IOTL, with places as Sexi. The lack of transoceanic technological wizardy is stunning, tough.
Is there a way to stimulate the transition to oceanic seafaring? Maybe have a succession crisis or something split the (bigger, better, more peopled) Sexi or even better, a place like Tingus on this map?
The split could force the single state into a Medi-facing state reliant on trade, and one that's structured the same way, but facing the Atlantic and otherwise cut off from the Med. Maybe a strong sibling rivalry between the two state or a merchant family dispute where one family ends up outside the usual, easy paths of trade. That way, the Med-focus of trade would be present, but the Med access would be gone: ripe situation to adapt Med-seafaring into Atlantic ocean-faring.
Surely Med seafaring has to be a better base for developing oceanic trade or navigation than coastal-hugging fishers in Brittany or the British Isles. More than happy to hear why I'm wrong on that count: while I know the Med/Ocean distinction is vast, I don't know the specifics to be able to tell if knowledge in one hinders development or understanding in the other.
Another point of consideration: the Indian Ocean. I know Madagascar people are widely thought to have Indonesian heritage: is there a way to get a trade network across the Indian Ocean going between East Africa and Indonesia without stopping in India? This culture + polynesian knowledge of the Pacific is surely a good base for a culture than can circumnavigate before modern weaponry-- and, crucially, allow the spread of diseases worldwide and make any population collapses occur in a timeframe when distant cultures are unable to take advantage the way European colonization played out in the Americas
Any incitative would certainly not come from political crisis. If these should birth technological advance would it be only half of the time, we'd be exploring the universe right now.
What was the incitative to better naval technology IOTL? Less being reliant on trade, than a virtuous circle involving competition for accessing far trade centers one knew existed in Africa, or circumventing the relative obstacle to already existing trade.
Simply said : a monopolizing Phoenicia would have less incitative finding other ways to assert its dominance.
That's just the incitative tough : you need to meet it with technological advance (whom History points how less than obvious it was), and enough structurated network to make the cut from traditional clientele not that harmful.
What you'd need would be a long enough naval tradition in coastal Atlantic and Mediterranean seas, metallurgic development (would it be only to ships structure)
Eventually, you'd need a really, really big incitative for any ancient civilisation to go blindly westwards : nobody knew that you had lands there, thinking about it as a big, empty and merciless oceans with few random archipelagos. It's quite possible that ancients discovered Azores IOTL, but the sheer distance really cooled them off.
Historical experience sems to prooves the exact contrary : simply said, Mediterranean (or any inner sea) navigation have a really distinct feel, especially when it comes to winds or streams.
Not that the difference is unsufferable, but it requires a different "how-to" and modification of ships structures as it happened with medieval cogs until the XIVth, when carvel built allowed ships to make the difference more easily (especially with its structural strength).
Romans merchant ships could have technically made the trip, but not after a month (at best) of solitary, contrary to dominant winds, more or less hopless trip. Assuming they went straight from Spain to Carribeans or Brazil.
I'm not sure : cabotage is a fairly easy way to migrate and trade (for supply in the former, to the center-by-center early trade). Coastal navigation is more or less simpler and critically safer. The distance between Indonesia and East Africa is roughly the same, and with similar problems : we have a rich, known coast up north; and a big, empty, risky unknown south.
And contrary to what happened in Atlantic, you have no real hope finding something remotly interesting in south Indian Ocean.
To be honest, I'd rather see Persian/Arab/East African trade develloping direct ocean travel sooner than Indonesian/Polynesian.
But, arguably, I'm not that confident enough on this for I wouldn't accept a contrary opinion.
It wouldn't be surprising that lateen sail in Mediterranean sea may have been originated from a polynesian or east asian feature IOTL, tough. It's not clear how much polynesian seafare made it to Asian seafare (altough you probably have room for embetterment).
You'd really need repeted occurences for that to be efficient tough : pandemics in America didn't occured from one encounter, but several involving Americans and Europeans (with their cattle) in the XVth and XVIth centuries.
And giving the long biological estrangement, I wonder how much native population in Americas wouldn't be distinctivly more vulnerable even after the first outerbacks. But that's another point.
I think this is a fascinating subject with a lot of potential, and I rarely see "make the world better/less worse!" propositions outside of closely modern, political TLs or WIs. This is great discussion and food for thought, Isfendil.
Hm, I think I misrepresented the idea if this is what you got from it. I'm imagining a political crisis spurs the creation of two, (geographically) opposite facing, vaguely hostile merchant states. If a state with an elite class rooted in maritime trade is stuck facing the Iberian Atlantic, would there be incentive for them to start trading with OTL Ivory/Gold coast? I'm imagining this to be a slower process built from a political catalyst with long term regional effects.
The monopolization wouldn't be happening here: there's a reason *Phoenician influence would be ejected from the Eastern Med homeland. Some collapse or invasion ejecting elites (and their wealth, skills, and inclinations for trade) to far flung Iberia would be the key here, no business-as-usual for the Phoenicians. Maybe a bigger initial boom makes them an earlier, riper target for their OTL conquerors (or their ATL stand-ins) who invade ahead of OTL schedule.
Fascinating stuff! I'm very much out of my element when discussing how one kind of navigational knowledge here might help or hinder the development of similar-but-fundamentally-different technological growth. In your opinion, would this kind of technology at least be better suited to coastal navigation, if not oceanic?
I think this the key struggle with how to get a (much!) earlier navigational-focused or obsessed culture. Tghere's cetainly plenty of reasons it didn't happen OTL. To fit the OP, one path might be to make a culture that has the experience seeing wealth/success in trade, but is forced out of their early incubation period into a broader scope or ambition. Greater Med Phoenician Disapora --> *Stronger Iberian-Phoenician Hybrid --> said hybrid excluded from Med to develop Atlantic/oceanic navigation on a level above local fishermen or small merchants of OTL.
Is there a good reason we can brainstorm to travel or explore semi-blindly Westward? Rumors of Basque/Irish fishermen getting to Newfoundland fisheries and Portuguese sailors getting to the edges of (at the time, backwater) Brazil ahead of reported exploration dates are fairly credible... but they have a millenia's memetic and technological advantage over our *Phoenician-hybrid outcasts.
Even if things can't get to that level before, say, 1000AD, I think a few good centuries' headstart on exploration and navigational technology helps to fit the aim of the OP. I'm not looking for this culture to become oceanic, but their distant descendants to have more of a nautical base earlier. For such wide reaching effects as described in the OP, we need to start really early, even if does mean that the butterflies get a little unmanageable to say the least.
Hm. Interesting combination with the East African *Zanzibar (or more Northerly *Somalian?) complex with Indonesian trade. Maybe make the Indian subcontinent enduringly hostile to East African or *Arab merchants, who desperately want...Indonesian spices?
Certainly this could mimic the hostility of the Islamic world to Christendom, which took the long way round Africa when the need presented itself. If we can create a difference in supply/demand for some ~exotic good~ with accompanying prices, the risk/reward could be tilted in favor of skipping a hostile India in favor of a hostile Southern Indian Ocean. Maybe smaller island that are, in today's world, total backwaters, become important waystations and ports for resupply. (the Maldives as a biggie? OTL Port Marianne [[edit/clarification: British Indian Ocean Territory]] as the laughably small counterpoint?)
I wouldn't discount possible cross pollination of this East African/Indonesian trade complex with polynesian ocean farers. Polynesians spread remarkably far (albeit, remarkably late for our navigation-happy ATL) with comparatively ~simple~ (imo, simply effective and efficient) technology, knowledge, and navigational instrumentation comparative to concurrent European explorers.
Hm, I'm not envisioning an early, one-time contact, especially given the propensity for plagues to burn themselves out in smaller ships and crews. I'm thinking the contact would need to be sustained enough that merchants would have an interest in establishing themselves on new continents permanently: a small [*Iberian-Phoenician descendant culture] enclave in a trade port on the tip of Brazil with regular, [*Ivory/Gold coast] contact in ~the ATL 1300s could certainly lead to some interesting disease exchanges and/or recoveries before an ATL ideology/technology was advanced enough to warrant an attempt at imperialism.
Ultimately, I envision the best way to answer/solve the OP's question is to aim for more advanced navigation concurrent with less advanced weaponry, less advanced industrialization, and less virulent/developed colonization-focused ideologies.
Anyone else seeing different methods of attacking the issue, either in terms of their understanding--differently-balanced or other factors-- or approach? I have almost no idea how to keep navigation on the same path but make weaponry/the ideological and economic drive for OTL colonization efforts less virulent.
Hm, I think I misrepresented the idea if this is what you got from it. I'm imagining a political crisis spurs the creation of two, (geographically) opposite facing, vaguely hostile merchant states. If a state with an elite class rooted in maritime trade is stuck facing the Iberian Atlantic, would there be incentive for them to start trading with OTL Ivory/Gold coast? I'm imagining this to be a slower process built from a political catalyst with long term regional effects.
The monopolization wouldn't be happening here: there's a reason *Phoenician influence would be ejected from the Eastern Med homeland. Some collapse or invasion ejecting elites (and their wealth, skills, and inclinations for trade) to far flung Iberia would be the key here, no business-as-usual for the Phoenicians. Maybe a bigger initial boom makes them an earlier, riper target for their OTL conquerors (or their ATL stand-ins) who invade ahead of OTL schedule.
Fascinating stuff! I'm very much out of my element when discussing how one kind of navigational knowledge here might help or hinder the development of similar-but-fundamentally-different technological growth. In your opinion, would this kind of technology at least be better suited to coastal navigation, if not oceanic?
I think this the key struggle with how to get a (much!) earlier navigational-focused or obsessed culture. Tghere's cetainly plenty of reasons it didn't happen OTL. To fit the OP, one path might be to make a culture that has the experience seeing wealth/success in trade, but is forced out of their early incubation period into a broader scope or ambition. Greater Med Phoenician Disapora --> *Stronger Iberian-Phoenician Hybrid --> said hybrid excluded from Med to develop Atlantic/oceanic navigation on a level above local fishermen or small merchants of OTL.
Is there a good reason we can brainstorm to travel or explore semi-blindly Westward? Rumors of Basque/Irish fishermen getting to Newfoundland fisheries and Portuguese sailors getting to the edges of (at the time, backwater) Brazil ahead of reported exploration dates are fairly credible... but they have a millenia's memetic and technological advantage over our *Phoenician-hybrid outcasts.
Even if things can't get to that level before, say, 1000AD, I think a few good centuries' headstart on exploration and navigational technology helps to fit the aim of the OP. I'm not looking for this culture to become oceanic, but their distant descendants to have more of a nautical base earlier. For such wide reaching effects as described in the OP, we need to start really early, even if does mean that the butterflies get a little unmanageable to say the least.
Hm. Interesting combination with the East African *Zanzibar (or more Northerly *Somalian?) complex with Indonesian trade. Maybe make the Indian subcontinent enduringly hostile to East African or *Arab merchants, who desperately want...Indonesian spices?
Certainly this could mimic the hostility of the Islamic world to Christendom, which took the long way round Africa when the need presented itself. If we can create a difference in supply/demand for some ~exotic good~ with accompanying prices, the risk/reward could be tilted in favor of skipping a hostile India in favor of a hostile Southern Indian Ocean. Maybe smaller island that are, in today's world, total backwaters, become important waystations and ports for resupply. (the Maldives as a biggie? OTL Port Marianne [[edit/clarification: British Indian Ocean Territory]] as the laughably small counterpoint?)
I wouldn't discount possible cross pollination of this East African/Indonesian trade complex with polynesian ocean farers. Polynesians spread remarkably far (albeit, remarkably late for our navigation-happy ATL) with comparatively ~simple~ (imo, simply effective and efficient) technology, knowledge, and navigational instrumentation comparative to concurrent European explorers.
Hm, I'm not envisioning an early, one-time contact, especially given the propensity for plagues to burn themselves out in smaller ships and crews. I'm thinking the contact would need to be sustained enough that merchants would have an interest in establishing themselves on new continents permanently: a small [*Iberian-Phoenician descendant culture] enclave in a trade port on the tip of Brazil with regular, [*Ivory/Gold coast] contact in ~the ATL 1300s could certainly lead to some interesting disease exchanges and/or recoveries before an ATL ideology/technology was advanced enough to warrant an attempt at imperialism.
Ultimately, I envision the best way to answer/solve the OP's question is to aim for more advanced navigation concurrent with less advanced weaponry, less advanced industrialization, and less virulent/developed colonization-focused ideologies.
Anyone else seeing different methods of attacking the issue, either in terms of their understanding--differently-balanced or other factors-- or approach? I have almost no idea how to keep navigation on the same path but make weaponry/the ideological and economic drive for OTL colonization efforts less virulent.
Surely the best bet is a surviving Vinland.
The Icelanders who founded Vinland had livestock and iron and northern crops. This would give a great boost to native nations they were (would have been) in contact with. The fact that Iceland was a weak fringe of Europe, and that Vinland would have been even further away, means that European projection of power in the New World would be much, much weaker than iOTL, and would give the local cultures time to use those tools to build themselves up before ocean travel allows such force projection some 400-500 years later.
My guess is that livestock and iron working would spread like wildfire (metaphorically), crossing the continent in a century or less.
Also, with e.g. linen and wool, clothing problems are much reduced (there's a good case to be made that e.g. the Iroquois were limited by that rather than food), and draft animals and manure for fields makes agriculture far more sustainable.
My guess would be that, after a century or so, 'Vinland' would be a collection of mostly native (genetically, at least) states, and several of them might have Norse influence limited to the 'royal' line and some loan words.
Ultimately, France and/or Spain will try to invade, and might succeed to some extent - but few settler colonies are likely, IMO.
The Icelanders who founded Vinland had livestock and iron and northern crops. This would give a great boost to native nations they were (would have been) in contact with. The fact that Iceland was a weak fringe of Europe, and that Vinland would have been even further away, means that European projection of power in the New World would be much, much weaker than iOTL, and would give the local cultures time to use those tools to build themselves up before ocean travel allows such force projection some 400-500 years later.
My guess is that livestock and iron working would spread like wildfire (metaphorically), crossing the continent in a century or less.
Also, with e.g. linen and wool, clothing problems are much reduced (there's a good case to be made that e.g. the Iroquois were limited by that rather than food), and draft animals and manure for fields makes agriculture far more sustainable.
My guess would be that, after a century or so, 'Vinland' would be a collection of mostly native (genetically, at least) states, and several of them might have Norse influence limited to the 'royal' line and some loan words.
Ultimately, France and/or Spain will try to invade, and might succeed to some extent - but few settler colonies are likely, IMO.
Sheliak Lawyer
Banned
You have trade and slower settlement. A lot better outcome for the natives than what happened OTL. Only way this is remotely feasible is if an ASB gives the natives smallpox immunity in perpetuity.
The Sandman
Banned
Earlier introduction of camels to the Sahara trade routes increases volume and value. This in turn leads to increased desire to cut out the middleman, which leads to either the West African, Mediterranean, or both sides of that route working on developing a sea route to circumvent the desert. Once you have ships that can handle the open ocean sailing up and down the west coast of Africa between Gibraltar and the Niger Delta, it's only a matter of time before one of them gets blown to South America, finds a land full of exotic new goods where their own goods are equally desirable, and makes it home with word of the lucrative business opportunities across the ocean.
Most other methods are going to run into one of two issues: the distance between the nearest high-population island and the American coast is too far to have regular high-volume contact, or the route can't realistically be established until too late to prevent the twin specter of technological gaps and virgin-field epidemics from leading to something that looks pretty much like the OTL Columbian Exchange, with at best slightly less genocide and population replacement.
Australia is actually harder, because there's less there that early civilizations would find worth harvesting. Gold and opals are pretty much it as far as things that would draw them farther into the continent than the Bugis sea cucumber harvesters of OTL. You'd need to have something like Jared's Land of Red and Gold happening, or somehow keep Australia in its "grasslands and forests" mode rather than its present "desert and scrublands" mode over most of the continent so that there's enough margin for agriculture to develop and for at least some of the potentially-domesticable megafauna to survive long enough for domestication to occur. Otherwise, you're stuck with a relatively small population that's difficult for anyone else to get to without early modern technology and without anything worth a return trip should an ancient-era civilization get there.
Most other methods are going to run into one of two issues: the distance between the nearest high-population island and the American coast is too far to have regular high-volume contact, or the route can't realistically be established until too late to prevent the twin specter of technological gaps and virgin-field epidemics from leading to something that looks pretty much like the OTL Columbian Exchange, with at best slightly less genocide and population replacement.
Australia is actually harder, because there's less there that early civilizations would find worth harvesting. Gold and opals are pretty much it as far as things that would draw them farther into the continent than the Bugis sea cucumber harvesters of OTL. You'd need to have something like Jared's Land of Red and Gold happening, or somehow keep Australia in its "grasslands and forests" mode rather than its present "desert and scrublands" mode over most of the continent so that there's enough margin for agriculture to develop and for at least some of the potentially-domesticable megafauna to survive long enough for domestication to occur. Otherwise, you're stuck with a relatively small population that's difficult for anyone else to get to without early modern technology and without anything worth a return trip should an ancient-era civilization get there.