WI : Consequences of an earlier independence of the Netherlands in the 16th Century

Jfoul

So I'm having fun with a TL where Spain's endeavours in the New World go a little less well than OTL, meaning that Spain has less silver going into its coffins, and so that it cannot hold on to the United Provinces/Nethelands/Low Countries as long.

So what if the Dutch Republic managed to get its independence a few decades earlier than OTL, and what would be the consequences regarding the naval balance of power with the big players of the time :
1. Spain
2. England
3. Portugal
4. France

Since the Dutch had a golden age soon after their independence, could it occur earlier ITTL and would the Dutch gain access to more colonies than OTL (at the expense of other European powers...)?
 
BBadolato

BBadolato

Jfoul said:
So I'm having fun with a TL where Spain's endeavours in the New World go a little less well than OTL, meaning that Spain has less silver going into its coffins, and so that it cannot hold on to the United Provinces/Nethelands/Low Countries as long.

So what if the Dutch Republic managed to get its independence a few decades earlier than OTL, and what would be the consequences regarding the naval balance of power with the big players of the time :
1. Spain
2. England
3. Portugal
4. France

Since the Dutch had a golden age soon after their independence, could it occur earlier ITTL and would the Dutch gain access to more colonies than OTL (at the expense of other European powers...)?
Click to expand...

The question is when and how. The Netherlands would not become part of Spain until 1554, and Charles was more tolerant and understanding of the Netherlands than Philip II.
 

Jfoul

BBadolato said:
The question is when and how. The Netherlands would not become part of Spain until 1554, and Charles was more tolerant and understanding of the Netherlands than Philip II.
Click to expand...

Then maybe around 1550, if Charles Quint understands that colonial endeavours have less returns than expected and so he cannot spend too much resources in every single parts of his European Empire, then the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549 he enacts to unite the provinces into a single entity may be more lenient and grant more liberties. Then when Philipp II comes around and cracks down on autonomy, the Dutch Provinces may revolt in a more vivid way, and he may not have the resources to maintain his power from the onset, thus granting independence before the the 80 years war starts. So roughly around 1568.

Maybe less plausible, Charles Quint may try to bleed the Dutch provinces dry to compensate for the lack of returns in the colonial ventures, thus triggering an earlier Dutch revolt in 1550 that he cannot constrain, and thus the United Provinces gain their independence in 1550.

In both cases the 80 years war could be avoided, giving the Dutch Republic more resources for their development and expansion.
 

Tonifranz

Jfoul said:
Then maybe around 1550, if Charles Quint understands that colonial endeavours have less returns than expected and so he cannot spend too much resources in every single parts of his European Empire, then the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549 he enacts to unite the provinces into a single entity may be more lenient and grant more liberties. Then when Philipp II comes around and cracks down on autonomy, the Dutch Provinces may revolt in a more vivid way, and he may not have the resources to maintain his power from the onset, thus granting independence before the the 80 years war starts. So roughly around 1568.

Maybe less plausible, Charles Quint may try to bleed the Dutch provinces dry to compensate for the lack of returns in the colonial ventures, thus triggering an earlier Dutch revolt in 1550 that he cannot constrain, and thus the United Provinces gain their independence in 1550.

In both cases the 80 years war could be avoided, giving the Dutch Republic more resources for their development and expansion.
Click to expand...
Wasn't Charles V born and raised in Ghent, spoke the local language, and was, for all intents and purposes, considered a lowlander? He's not like his son, who's a true Spaniard, or his Grandfather, who's a German. He's more of a Flemish.

And the lowlanders consider Charles V one of their own. So how can they try for independence, when in their view, they are not ruled by foreigners, but one of their own? For all intents and purposes, they are independent under Charles V.

It's like Spain revolting to gain independence from Philip II, another Spaniard.
 

funnyhat

Tonifranz said:
Wasn't Charles V born and raised in Ghent, spoke the local language, and was, for all intents and purposes, considered a lowlander? He's not like his son, who's a true Spaniard, or his Grandfather, who's a German. He's more of a Flemish.

And the lowlanders consider Charles V one of their own. So how can they try for independence, when in their view, they are not ruled by foreigners, but one of their own? For all intents and purposes, they are independent under Charles V.

It's like Spain revolting to gain independence from Philip II, another Spaniard.
Click to expand...

I believe his native language was French, which was the language of Flemish aristocrats, though he also learned Flemish and was quite a polyglot overall.

Charles was also by nature more willing to compromise with Protestants than his son.
 
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Jfoul

Tonifranz said:
And the lowlanders consider Charles V one of their own. So how can they try for independence, when in their view, they are not ruled by foreigners, but one of their own? For all intents and purposes, they are independent under Charles V.
Click to expand...

Then perhaps their independist surge will come once Philip II, indeed much more a product of the Spanish kingdom, comes to power. And his lack of resources ITTL will mean that the 80 years war is averted and both and independence and peace are quickly reached by the Dutch Provinces.
 

Orcot

Could their have been a other brother of philips who joined the church and became archbishop of liege. During the reformation he officially declares independence of spain and integrates the lowlands with the Bishopric uniting the lowlands, meanwhile Philip let's it happen because he focusses more on the colonies and the lowlands will return to him once more afther this bishop brother dies. This time including Liege and making diplomacy a tad bid more easy. However the bishop turns it into a republic
 

M79

Could an earlier Netherlands (try to) claim Burgindian territories as a sort of Neo-Lotharingia?
 

funnyhat

isabella said:
You are sure of that? I think here you are mixing Charles and his brother Ferdinand (who was more willing to compromise)...
Click to expand...

He was less willing than Ferdinand, but still more than Philip. Charles did make a few concessions to the Protestants in the Augsburg Interim, and then finally agreed to the peace of Augsburg. I can't see Philip agreeing to either.
 

isabella

funnyhat said:
He was less willing than Ferdinand, but still more than Philip who probably would never make peace with Protestants at all. Charles did make a few concessions to the Protestants in the Augsburg Interim, and then finally agreed to the peace of Augsburg.
Click to expand...
Well we can not know. Philip in England was pretty against the introduction of the Inquisition and much more moderated than Mary so...
 
Bob Hope

Bob Hope

Hi there, realize i'm late to this thread but;

Charles V was challenged by Charles Duke of Geldre and after his death Geldre [which depending on your POD can also include the OverJissel, Drenthe and Groeningen] was ruled by William who already ruled the united duchies of Julich, Berg, Cleves and Mark. These areas were very close to the dutch culture. Utrecht rebelled against its Bishop, Henry II about this time & called in the Gelderse.

If you dont mind having a "Netherlands " without Holland or the Scheldt, there is your candidate for an early independent Netherlands, complete with conflict with the Habsburgs or, given that Cologne is ruled by a Wittlesbach Bishop, Bavaria.

@isabella, @funnyhat, @kasumigenx , @orgot, @Jfoul, @Tonifranz, @BBadolato, @M79
 
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