What if the Byzantine Empire lasted longer?

[Wr1t3r]

PoD: the 4th crusade sacks the capital of the Ayyubid sultanate instead of constantinople. I think this would cause the sultanate of rum to see a weakened Ayyubid sultanate and conquer some of it's northernmost territories, instead of conquering west to fight the byzantines more, after they've consolidated more territory, they might consider going after the Byzantines later, but then they'd have the mongols to deal with. Maybe since the Mongols are dealing with a more powerful rum sultanate, they'd ask the byzantines for help and the split it. I also think the armenian kingdom of cilicia and the crusader states would also take advantage of the weakened ayyubids. But what do you guys think?

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

PoD: the 4th crusade sacks Egypt's capital instead of constantinople

I have doubts that such an underfunded force as the 4th Crusade would be able to achieve anything in Egypt.

I think this would cause the seljuks to see a weakened egypt and go south instead of west to fight the byzantines more, after they've consolidated more territory, they might consider going after the Byzantines later, but then they'd have the Khwarizmians to deal with.

I don't understand, there were Seljuks fighting with the Byzantines in Anatolia since Manzikert, there is no reason to go South since the climate in Egypt is not made for the life style of the Seljuks. Khwarazmians are slightly more East than the Seljuks.

Maybe since the Khwarizmians are dealing with a more powerful Seljuk empire, they'd ask the byzantines for help and the split the seljuk empire, however, even if this more powerful seljuk empire is able to resist, they'd have to deal with the mongols within 1/3 of a century. But what do you guys think?

The Seljuks would more likely than not remain in Anatolia fighting the Byzantines, once the Mongols arrive they probably would still crush everyone on their path meaning that the Byzantines could use the fragmentation of the Rum Sultanate to reconquer much of Anatolia however it is a question what happens with Bulgaria in the meantime, once the Mongols have beaten the two most formidable enemies of the Byzantines I think they would be able to reconquer a good part of their lands though obviously not nearly as much as the Ottomans.

 

[Wr1t3r]

I have doubts that such an underfunded force as the 4th Crusade would be able to achieve anything in Egypt.

They'd recieve more funding from the Byzantines & Cypriots.

I don't understand, there were Seljuks fighting with the Byzantines in Anatolia since Manzikert, there is no reason to go South since the climate in Egypt is not made for the life style of the Seljuks. Khwarazmians are slightly more East than the Seljuks.
The Seljuks would more likely than not remain in Anatolia fighting the Byzantines, once the Mongols arrive they probably would still crush everyone on their path meaning that the Byzantines could use the fragmentation of the Rum Sultanate to reconquer much of Anatolia however it is a question what happens with Bulgaria in the meantime, once the Mongols have beaten the two most formidable enemies of the Byzantines I think they would be able to reconquer a good part of their lands though obviously not nearly as much as the Ottomans.

Check my edit

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

They'd recieve more funding from the Byzantines & Cypriots.

The Byzantines aren't able nor willing to give all of this funding, it was precisely because they weren't able to give enough money to the Crusaders that Constantinople got sacked and any non-puppet emperor wouldn't be so generous to the Crusaders.

PoD: the 4th crusade sacks the capital of the Ayyubid sultanate instead of constantinople.

You can see that the 5th Crusade, who was much more prepared than the 4th, failed to even reach the Ayyubid capital let alone sack it.

I think this would cause the sultanate of rum to see a weakened Ayyubid sultanate and conquer some of it's northernmost territories, instead of conquering west to fight the byzantines more, after they've consolidated more territory, they might consider going after the Byzantines later, but then they'd have the mongols to deal with.

They might try to conquer parts of Northern Syria but the climate in the Levant is not ideal for the steppe based Seljuks and their primary goal still is conquering Anatolia, it's worth much more than what you could gain from the Ayyubids.

Maybe since the Mongols are dealing with a more powerful rum sultanate, they'd ask the byzantines for help and the split it. I also think the armenian kingdom of cilicia and the crusader states would also take advantage of the weakened ayyubids. But what do you guys think?

The Rum Sultanate would still be completely outmatched by the Mongols, however the Byzantine-Mongol relations might be changed since IOTL the Empire of Nicaea allied itself with the Mongols because it wanted to focus its attention on the Latin Empire, here the unified Byzantine Empire doesn't have a reason to do so which could mean conflict and a few cities sacked in Anatolia (the Mongols won't be able to pass the Sea of Marmara) but it depends on who takes power since they could also be scared of it since they just destroyed the Seljuks.

 

[Wr1t3r]

The Byzantines aren't able nor willing to give all of this funding, it was precisely because they weren't able to give enough money to the Crusaders that Constantinople got sacked and any non-puppet emperor wouldn't be so generous to the Crusaders.

Maybe they can stop on their way in Cyprus to get more funding and threaten to sack cyprus if they don't give them anything, same thing with cilicia and the crusader states.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Maybe they can stop on their way in Cyprus to get more funding and threaten to sack cyprus if they don't give them anything, same thing with cilicia and the crusader states.

The problem is that Cyprus won't have enough money to pay, sacking it will get some money to give to the Venetians but not enough, unless they give Cyprus to the Venetians it would be a thing that the 4th Crusade would consider however it would have some unpleasant collateral damages.

 

[Wr1t3r]

The problem is that Cyprus won't have enough money to pay, sacking it will get some money to give to the Venetians but not enough, unless they give Cyprus to the Venetians it would be a thing that the 4th Crusade would consider however it would have some unpleasant collateral damages.

what if they get some funding from the Byzantines, Some from Cyprus, Sack somewhere on the levantine coast of the ayyubid sultanate for more funding, then get some from more from Cicilia, and get the rest of their funding from the remaining crusader states?

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

what if they get some funding from the Byzantines, Some from Cyprus, Sack somewhere on the levantine coast of the ayyubid sultanate for more funding, then get some from more from Cicilia, and get the rest of their funding from the remaining crusader states?

They're still lacking a lot of money, none of these will be willing to pay the enormous costs of the Crusade, they'll probably help a little bit that won't be enough to pay the debt to the Venetians and the latter won't let the Crusaders on Crusade so easily before they pay their debt since if they die who's going to pay them?

 

[Wr1t3r]

They're still lacking a lot of money, none of these will be willing to pay the enormous costs of the Crusade, they'll probably help a little bit that won't be enough to pay the debt to the Venetians and the latter won't let the Crusaders on Crusade so easily before they pay their debt since if they die who's going to pay them?

maybe the byzantines, cypriots, armenians or people of the crusader states borrow money from jews, who they later will expel to avoid paying off their debts

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

maybe the byzantines, cypriots, armenians or people of the crusader states borrow money from jews, who they later will expel to avoid paying off their debts

The Crusader States were very tolerant with their non-Christian minorities and Jews there weren't as rich as the Jews in Europe.

 

[Evil Crusader]

If you'd like to make Byzantium last longer, there's oh so many PODs. I don't quite grasp the insistence on an Egypt discussion that simply cannot work.

 

[Wr1t3r]

The Crusader States were very tolerant with their non-Christian minorities and Jews there weren't as rich as the Jews in Europe.

Maybe the Byzantines, armenians or cypriots could do it

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Maybe the Byzantines, armenians or cypriots could do it

But they don't have Jews who are that rich, it was something that happened over the course of centuries in Europe, it wasn't the case in the Middle East; also their wealth developed later on and it would be very bad for a state to take a loan and then not pay it back.

 

[Wr1t3r]

and it would be very bad for a state to take a loan and then not pay it back.

That didn't bother Edward I. Also, if the fate of constantinople is at stake, I think it would do the byzantines more good than bad in the long term

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

That didn't bother Edward I. Also, if the fate of constantinople is at stake, I think it would do the byzantines more good than bad in the long term

Constantinople wouldn't be at stake, the Crusades are a military expedition to recover the Holy Land, they aren't about the Byzantines. Constantinople was sacked due to an unfortunate succession of circumstances, the leaders of the Crusade didn't plan to sack it.
Also the Crusader States and Byzantium don't see a point in doing this, it's the Crusaders' problem if they don't have money, not theirs.

 

[Wr1t3r]

Also the Crusader States and Byzantium don't see a point in doing this, it's the Crusaders' problem if they don't have money, not theirs.

And when they didn't get their money they sacked constantinople

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

And when they didn't get their money they sacked constantinople

Yes, but people don't know that so they don't feel threatened.

 

[ike225]

Look, your POD ain’t working. The crusade is not going to capture that land.
Neither the Romans, Cypriots, Armenians or the Jewish inhabitants of those places would be able to finance the 4th crusade since the required amount of people for the crusade to be able to pay for the fleet just aren’t there.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

If you really want and desire the Byzantine empire to survive longer, how about making sure that Justianian ignores taking back the land which belonged under the Roman Empire, and focuses on making sure the plague does not ravage through Byzantine land, and that Persia does not invade Byzantine provinces. You have a nice pod, of course, but you see, the Fourth Crusade was mainly called on Byzantium because of differences between the Greek Orthodox and the Roman Catholic branches of Christianity, and because of Venetian greed.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

If you really want and desire the Byzantine empire to survive longer, how about making sure that Justianian ignores taking back the land which belonged under the Roman Empire, and focuses on making sure the plague does not ravage through Byzantine land, and that Persia does not invade Byzantine provinces. You have a nice pod, of course, but you see, the Fourth Crusade was mainly called on Byzantium because of differences between the Greek Orthodox and the Roman Catholic branches of Christianity, and because of Venetian greed.

I think a better way to do the same thing is having a more Eastern Roman friendly regime in the Ostrogoth Kingdom, reconquering North Africa was a good thing.