I don’t think this would count as a typical revolution in most people’s eyes, since it was caused by an even more virulent strain of reactionaries trying to secede and forcing the moderates to adopt policies of black civil rights that they’d never otherwise accept. It’s not really proof of a more humane strategy, just a clear example of wartime necessity causing long-term societal upheaval.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
An interesting thought for Theodore Roosevelt is that while he may not become a president in this timeline, he might wind up as a Secretary. Maybe in the State or War Departments? I don’t see Theodore Roosevelt simply staying out of politics no matter what timeline changes may occur.
A more interesting thought will be how other political figures will develop in this timeline like Eugene V. Debs or even William Jennings Bryan
A more interesting thought will be how other political figures will develop in this timeline like Eugene V. Debs or even William Jennings Bryan
Eugene probably becomes a Congressman while Bryan probably is the fist Populist president
That's unfair. As was pointed out later, there was a lot of democratic progress made by socialist parties in Europe pre-WWI (which led to a lot of nominally internationalist groups to side with their own governments so as not to lose that progress, once WWI started), and 1848 was hardly a great example - in France, the Socialists were pissy they lost an election, and rather than say, wait until the next election, they launched a violent action against the brand new Second Republic. Elsewhere in mainland Europe there weren't even that many elected bodies around to compare to. And again, in 1848, socialists went off the rails pretty quick.
In 1871, I will grant that Adolph Thiers started that one, but it wasn't like Paris was acting with a whole lot of widespread popular support across the rest of France, so the lack of social progress can't really be left at the feet of the elites refusing to allow it. Not entirely, anyway.
I dunno. Most of the "I can't believe it's not lenninism" is just party vanguardism and things along those lines rather than mirroring every flavor of lenin, and Vanguardism goes all the way back to Gracchus Babeuf, and Blanqui after him.
Teddy got presidency because he got lucky Repuclican leadership tried to end his Career by putting him the VP slot but Murphy liked Teddy
Yeah, people forget for quire awhile, VP was a dead end post at best.
One possible outcome is Teddy gets injured in the Spanish American War, if it happens, and gets to be the head of the VA, and goes full trust buster on them.
I'm still partial to Roosevelt becoming either Secretary of War or Secretary of State personally. Near enough to influence the action if he can't be the conductor. Especially if Elihu Root is still prominent.
People forget how young he was, though. Even without the spanish american war, he might have become governor of New York. And he was only forty when elected to that office. Yes, he might have had to wait a little while, but I could easily see a Democrat in 1908 and then Roosevelt becoming President in 1912. That's not even counting scenarios with a Progressive era pushed back by conservatives and Roosevelt leading a more progressive charge in 1916 or even 1920.
Nice one!
Yes, I have to say that even though I think the idea is interesting I have scarce interest in "redeeming" Wilson.
Paying for substitutes was never abolished, so Cleveland maybe avoided the war as IOTL. McKinley I'm not sure.
Great title!
Nice!
The brutality and disdain of the slavocrats even to other Whites will be better known ITTL, and that's great for a book examining that.
Good titles all
You're right, maybe Teddy could be typical of Northerners who feel great bitterness against the leaders, especially those of the Junta, but are ready to welcome back the "deluded" masses.
I also hope the very important role of African Americans is better recognized ITTL.
That makes me think that I kind of have been treating DC as a ghost town lol. But certainly not everyone fled the Confederate attack, they lived under their occupation for a year, and then they had to come back to Reconstruct it. That would make for very interesting stories!
Indeed. I personally have always found political and social developments much more interesting than military maneuvers. Unfortunately some works gloss over that side in favor of purely military analysis.
I think it's too early to think about Teddy given that his career will depend on the future development and factions of the Republican Party. I have, however, already stated that I believe we could see a "Labor Republican" faction with men like Butler, Phillips, or Wade who were friendly to labor and saw the "emancipation" of wage slaves as the next fight. The enfranchisement of a large population of working class Black people can only lurch the party to the left.
By the way, I've written another vignette. Hope you all enjoy it.
Side-story: "A Scene from Washington"
A Scene from Washington
“Look yonder at those poor fellows. I cannot bear it. This suffering, this loss of life is dreadful.” President Lincoln said these words, capping them off with a heavy sight, as he rode past a long line of ambulances that carried wounded soldiers to a hospital in Washington D.C.
His friend, Representative Isaac N. Arnold, who was riding with him that day found no adequate words. After a beat of silence, he could only agree with Lincoln. “It is dreadful,” he said, lamely. Lincoln did not reproach him for his lack of eloquence, only nodding sadly before looking over at the ruins of another building. It had been burned down by the Confederates in the first battle of the war, and now the returning civilians were trying their best to pick up the pieces, building new edifices or trying to savage the ruins of others.
“Ah, that was the boardinghouse of Mrs. Sprigg. I resided there with Mary and my boys when I first came to Washington. Back then I was a representative, a Whig. We were only Whigs at that house. I think some called it the ‘Abolition House’ since, you know Arnold, none of us liked slavery that much,” Lincoln said in almost fond reminiscence as they passed a lot where a school was being built. Then he turned sad again. “Mrs. Sprigg is now in the North with her husband. They are Virginians, but loyal ones. I hope she benefitted from the compensation given by Congress to the loyal people of Washington, but that will never bring back the boardinghouse.” Lincoln shook his head then, mournfully. “Back then I never thought I’d see Southerners beating men with a cane, burning these houses, and then pointing guns at me.”
Lincoln and Arnold then finally reached the hospital. As was the current protocol, ever since the assassination attempt, they had to wait until the soldiers that had come with them got off and looked around for threats. Until then Arnold and Lincoln waited, the President grumbling that “I do not know what they think having these fellows following me is good for, Arnold.”
“Someone may attempt to take your life, Mr. President,” answered Arnold patiently.
“You know that doesn’t scare me, Arnold.”
“I know, and that’s why we need them. You’re too brave for your own good sometimes,” Arnold said, and then gave Lincoln a half-smile. “I hear the prints of you hitting the rebel Booth sell very well.”
Lincoln sighed. “Those awful things?”
“The proceeds go to the widows of Union soldiers, sir.”
“Very well, then,” Lincoln said, looking out of the window. The soldiers were looking anxiously around, but Lincoln could only see tired nurses and wounded men around. Finally, they signaled they could get off, but two soldiers still followed Lincoln to the hospital’s entrance.
“Boys, may I ask you to leave me to see your comrades?” Lincoln asked. The soldiers, two young ones, seemed to hesitate. Lincoln tried to make a joke then. “If you worry for me, give me a log and I promise I’ll defend myself like last time.”
The two youths laughed. “Of course sir. But we have to stay at the door,” one said.
“Yes, sir. If any rebel appears, we will give our lives for you and the Union,” the other added.
A shadow of melancholy passed over Lincoln’s eyes, and he put his hand on the youth’s shoulder, in a fatherly way. “I do not wish for you to give your life for me, my dear young man. What would your mother say? The thanks of the Republic would never assuage such pain.”
Without waiting for an answer, Lincoln entered the hospital and spent hours greeting and chatting with each convalescent soldier. This was something Lincoln did often, even though Mary worried that visiting the soldiers “although a labor of love, to him, fatigued him very much.” But Lincoln kept at it for over five hours. He stopped at the bedside of a delirious soldier, who asked Lincoln to write a letter to his mother.
“Certainly,” the President said, taking a pencil and paper. After a few minutes of dictation, the patient finally took a good look at his aide and gasped.
“Are you really the President?” the soldier asked in amazement.
Lincoln nodded, smiling at the soldier, who would never forget how Lincoln’s “homely face became absolutely beautiful as it beamed with love and sympathy.” Lincoln then insisted they finish writing the letter before moving to another bed.
Near the Union soldiers, wounded Confederates were also receiving care. Not bothering to tell his hapless guards, Lincoln entered the wing too, and exchanged pleasantries and shook hands too.
“Why, Mr. Lincoln. Come here to hit us with logs?” asked defiantly one of the men.
Lincoln chuckled. “Oh, I don’t think it’ll be necessary, my dear fellow. If you promise to lay the arms away, I will promise to lay the log away too.”
In spite of himself, one of the corners of the soldier’s lips twitched. “In that case, Mr. Lincoln, I’ll apply for a pardon. The food is better here, but I have to say I like our women better.”
“Consider yourself pardoned,” Lincoln said, shaking his hand, and then adding “I married a Southern lady, you know, so I appreciate their charms too.” He then moved to another bed, and said good-naturedly “My dear young man, how are the nurses treating you?”
After some hours more, Lincoln exited the hospital and reunited with Arnold. They travelled a few minutes in silence, before Lincoln started to talk, softly.
“You know, Arnold, once I travelled to the camps when General Hooker was in charge. It was a splendid visit, the boys were happy to see me. Or I hope so at least! Mary said some called me a scarecrow but that’s alright,” the President said with a laugh, “I know I am not the most gallant horse-rider.”
Lincoln looked down at his lap, where he was massaging his sore right hand. “Lamon was with me. So many men had died in the Peninsula, it was dreadful. I couldn’t help weeping, so Lamon tried to cheer me up with a little sad song.” The President’s voice shook, and he had to take a deep breath. “I did not want Lamon to give his life for me, Arnold. He said my life was more important, but I couldn’t leave him or the others. Everybody says they died for me, but I don’t like that. Their life was as precious to them and their loved ones, as mine is to me and my loved ones.”
Arnold, again, was at a lost for words. Instead of any bumbling reply, he reached out for Lincoln’s hand and grasped it gently. Lincoln took another breath and continued.
“I do not like this war, Arnold. What’s the use of all this bloodletting, I ask myself. They call me the widow-maker, you know? What right do I have to ask the women of the country for their husbands and sons? I know that the Northern boys are as dear to their mothers and fathers as my boys are to me and Mary.” Lincoln paused again, raising a hand against his face. “But then I think of all the colored women who have had their children sold, children who are as dear to them as our children are to us. I couldn’t live with myself if I allowed that to continue.”
Lincoln turned to look Arnold on the eye, his face full of sorrow but also decided. “I once resolved that those who had fallen shall not have died in vain. I owe it to Lamon, Reynolds, Lyon, and all the other brave Northern men. I do not like to think that they all died for me, but for something greater than all of us. I owe it to them to see things through.”
Before Arnold could formulate a response, the carriage was stopped, and a breathless young man appeared at Lincoln’s window. “Mr. President! Mr. President!” he cried.
“What is it, my dear boy? What’s the matter?” Lincoln asked, alarmed.
“It’s big news, sir. From the South,” the anxious youth said, taking a moment to gather his bearings. “It’s about John Breckinridge.”
Dear Lord..... if it wasnt' obvious why grant considered Lincoln the greatest man he ever knew this cements it!
Founding myself becoming more of a son to father abraham just as much as i enjoy the spectacle of the confederacy crashing and burning!
Oh dear... I'd be VERY intrigued at how Father Abraham reacts to the Southron Coup....
A good look at Lincoln ITTL, glad to see that his sense of humor isn't gone after the assassination attempt. With the Southern coups, maybe it would be good for Lincoln to pay a trip to City Point, Grant's HQ next to Petersburg for a discussion on what to do next. How Lincoln reacts to the junta does will be interesting. While I am sure the Union is inclined to point and laugh, the removal of familiar enemy leaders like Breckinridge and possibly Jeff Davis is bound to cause some discussion among Union politicians and military figures. Also, with the coup, I wonder what sort of narrative the anti-Lincoln ticket is going to run with and how badly are they going to get crushed.
I wonder if anyone, upon hearing of the Southern Coup, would look back on events in the Union these past years and wondering how closely they may have evaded a similar situation?
I can fully see Lincoln being compared to Cincinnatus in future history books given some of the measures takes to insure the Union holds and how Lincoln refuses to abuse them.
Fabulous job! Lincoln truly is a great man. I love the sense of humor and the feelings you capture are really great.
The way you have the security certainly goes with my idea of how everyone is looking out for him as that soldier says in my tidbit.
Doctor Da Costa is rather famous, I wonder if Lincoln has talked with him personally since he is based in Philadelphia right now. I think so, visiting is probably as relaxing as it is sad for him. He feels he can be doing something to ease the pain of others.
The way you have the security certainly goes with my idea of how everyone is looking out for him as that soldier says in my tidbit.
Doctor Da Costa is rather famous, I wonder if Lincoln has talked with him personally since he is based in Philadelphia right now. I think so, visiting is probably as relaxing as it is sad for him. He feels he can be doing something to ease the pain of others.
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