TL Idea - Better Japanese Empire

[The Sandman]

For a little while now, I've been kicking around an idea for a Japanese Empire that has some chance of surviving into the modern day. The main POD is twofold; first, an emphasis on Japaneseness as a cultural/spiritual trait rather than an ethnic/biological one (allowing for assimilation and greater acceptance of foreigners) and closer ties between Japan and the US resulting in the Japanese dogpiling onto Spain in 1898 and keeping the Philippines, Guam and Wake as prizes (the US presumably keeps Cuba).

Further on, the big events would be Japan getting control of Manchuria in the Russo-Japanese War, taking North Sakhalin and part of the Russian Far East ( the bit past the Amur that contains Khabarovsk and Vladivostok) during the RCW, and ends up with a WWII that has the Allied Powers of Britain, the US and the Japanese Empire facing off against an Axis Germany, USSR, Italy and Nationalist China in 1941.

Obviously, there is a whole bunch of stuff I would have to flesh out in here, but I was hoping that I could get some preliminary C&C on plausibility, possible events in this TL, and any issues I may have missed.

 

[Max Sinister]

Why do Germany and the USSR fight together (i.e. longer than just a short time, and without one partner trying to double-cross the other one), and if Germany is at war with Poland, France and Britain, why does Japan enter (ok, the USSR might attack them), and why does America enter too? It would be stupid for either Axis or USSR to declare war on them...

 

[The Sandman]

Germany/USSR is an alliance of convenience; essentially, they intend to postpone the doublecross until everyone else is toast. Since Japan does not go fascist in this TL, or more accurately doesn't have the OTL Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937, the Nationalists continue to receive German support. For a variety of reasons, mainly having to do with Japanese territorial expansion back in the period 1890-1920 and Japanese support of the assorted opposition, both the Soviets and the KMT want to take a crack at Japan.

America, meanwhile, gets dragged in essentially as the result of an enormous screw-up by the Axis; when the surprise attack against the Japanese goes in, a couple of American ships get sunk. The problem is that one of them has FDR on board (state visit to Japan, reaffirming assorted treaties, etc.) After that, Germany declares war on the US in solidarity with their Axis brethren (intensely stupid, but they did it in OTL, so...) and thus the war is on.

 

[Keenir]

when I saw the subject line "better Japanese Empire", my first thought was "didn't the Red Cross praise Japanese treatment of POWs during and after WW1 ?"

For a little while now, I've been kicking around an idea for a Japanese Empire that has some chance of surviving into the modern day. The main POD is twofold; first, an emphasis on Japaneseness as a cultural/spiritual trait rather than an ethnic/biological one (allowing for assimilation and greater acceptance of foreigners) and closer ties between Japan and the US resulting in the Japanese dogpiling onto Spain in 1898 and keeping the Philippines, Guam and Wake as prizes (the US presumably keeps Cuba).

I suspect that, if Japan tried making it a cultural trait rather than an ethnic one, they'd quickly find themselves the butt of many jokes around the world ("lookit them Japs; so inferior, they're gonna let nigh anyone call 'imself a Jap")

For a long time, even in the 19th Century, most places were more ethnic-nation--based.

heck, the US tried going to war with Canada & did war with Mexico...so why would the US be best buddies with such a permissive Japan?
(the US may demand that Japan convert to Christianity, to prove its forward-thinking)

 

[Nicole]

(the US may demand that Japan convert to Christianity, to prove its forward-thinking)

Religion stopped being a factor in politics centuries ago... and it'd be pretty damn hypocritical for a nation that bans government meddling in religion and bars religious tests for office to demand conversion.

 

[The Sandman]

What I'm thinking of is somebody in the Meiji government reading about the Edict of Caracalla and going "You know, if we decide to build an empire for ourselves in Asia, things will go more smoothly if we give our subjects equal rights while converting them into good Japanese, and assimilating whatever fragments of their culture we happen to like." It's really an extension of the Japanese tendency to lift bits wholesale from other nations and then adapt them to their purposes.

And since Japan has not eliminated its sense of national superiority, but merely done a slight redefinition of "nation", they really don't care what other people think. The examples made of China, Spain and Russia within the space of a decade, along with the relatively stronger economy allowed by integration of Manchuria, Korea, Taiwan, and the Philippines into Dai-Nippon would speak for themselves.

 

[Nicole]

You know, I wonder if there are any examples of successful nations who based their nationality on cultural adaptation, not ethnic lines. Maybe say, in the central part of North America... possibly even the world's current superpower?

 

[HueyLong]

Sorry, but who is Japanese will take a long time, and won't be done with equal rights, not in the Japanese mindset.

Instead, Korean and Manchurian women would be forced to marry Japanese men, and Korean would be banned in writing, public speech and education. (Not a big enough ethnic difference for tehre to be a big problem) But Filipinos are spurned, and probably just used as cheap labor.

For an interesting look at Japanese culture and national identity, seek out What is Japan? by Taichi Sakaiya

EDIT: In America, it was set down as a. being white and b. speaking English. Often times, C was added to the mix: Must be Protestant.

 

[The Sandman]

I figure that the Philippines would gain some limited degree of autonomy, with Japanese settlement encouraged and with foreign policy subordination to Japan proper.

There would probably be an attempt made to assimilate some of Korean into Japanese; the writing system, however, would be Japanese. The forced marriage thing, however, would only be if this were actual eugenics; it's not. The whole point would be to put Japanese policy vis a vis Korea behind a sort of "Korean Body, Japanese Soul" motto. Still not fun times for Korea, but not as bad as OTL, where Koreans were perpetually second class citizens used as menial laborers and suppressed.

The other thing the Japanese might be taking cues from is the French creation of a singular French identity from the individual regions of Provence, Normandy, Brittany, etc. Not exactly nice in the short run, but resulting in a more or less cohesive polity in the longer run; by 1950, Korea, Manchuria and Taiwan would be integral parts of Japan.

In the end, the Japanese would still be looked at askance by our modern standards. It would, however, be at the British India level of unpleasantness rather than the Belgian Congo level that the historical Japanese Empire often seemed to operate at.

 

[Keenir]

Religion stopped being a factor in politics centuries ago...

A factor...mostly. An excuse, it never stopped; certainly not by the 19th century.

and it'd be pretty damn hypocritical for a nation that bans government meddling in religion and bars religious tests for office to demand conversion.

*nods* True...but in the 19th century, how many US citizens were not Christian?

 

[Keenir]

You know, I wonder if there are any examples of successful nations who based their nationality on cultural adaptation, not ethnic lines. Maybe say, in the central part of North America... possibly even the world's current superpower?

For a long time, unless one was a -

1. woman
2. non-European (at times, even Italians, Greeks, and Jews were frowned upon)
3. non-Christian
4. Native American.

did I forget anyone?

 

[Nicole]

For a long time, unless one was a -

1. woman
2. non-European (at times, even Italians, Greeks, and Jews were frowned upon)
3. non-Christian
4. Native American.

did I forget anyone?

Well, ATL Japan would probably have similair biases towards women, non-Asians, and the first post mentioned religious aspects as well. (Though, Jews were usually free of most discrimination in the USA early on, and many actions of persecution were usually condemned by the government, they really didn't have it worse than say, Catholics or Orthodox Christians)

 

[HueyLong]

Italians, Greeks and Jews weren't "white" in American's eyes. Greeks and Italians were mongrel Arabs and Negroes, and Jews were.... well.... Jews.

Imajin, Koreans do look different than Japanese, and the Phillipines have about 3 recognized varieties of races, none of which look like North Asia's people. They are mostly dark skinned, have a different facial structure, and there is a noticeable European ancestry in many.

Plus, both Korea and the Phillipines have a large Christian (and Muslim in the Phillipines population) something not compatible with State Shinto (which was a combination of Buddhism, Shinto and Confucianism, really)

 

[Smaug]

Just my opinion, but don't the Japanese and Chinese at this time only consider foreigners whether white, black, brown, green or anything else at all, as foreign devils. To be used for the knowledge that they have, and later cast aside at thier convenience? European racism has nothing on the Asian brand. It borders on xenophobia.(?) (not sure if thats a word, but hey, i tried)

 

[The Sandman]

Non-Asians will be tolerated, in so far as they aid greater Japan. Assimilated ones will, of course, do better (if you've ever read Shogun, think of the Englishman and you'll know what I mean). They may still face issues later on, similar to how in the US 2nd and 3rd generation Asians, Latinos, etc. occasionally run into people who think they've just come off the boat.

Women may be treated a little better; truth be told, I hadn't thought about that.

Religiously, things could get weird. I suspect Christianity might be quietly discouraged, or might be altered to fit the needs of the Japanese government. As for Jews... well, I see this Japan as taking in a lot of the Jewish refugees from the Holocaust, at least the Western European ones (Germany, France, Italy, Scandinavia). Also political dissidents, and certain other "undesirables" of the Nazi regime; this is, of course, before Japanese entry into the war.

 

[Keenir]

Women may be treated a little better; truth be told, I hadn't thought about that.

Actually, I wasn't talking about Japan...I was replying to the comment that 19th century America was great for everyone.

compared with other 19th century nations, how did Japan treat women? better than most? on par with the good nations? below average?


my apologies for any confusion.

 

[The Sandman]

I'd have to do some research; that's why this is kind of preliminary to a TL. I suspect that Japanese treatment of women during Meiji was about average for the time; in other words, not great. No franchise, relatively limited property and legal rights would be my guess.

In this TL, they would be given somewhat better treatment as an efficiency measure; after all, Greater Japan would need to use all of its components more effectively for the glory of the Japanese spirit. (At least, that would be the thought processes in the heads of the leadership)

 

[Wendell]

The Japanese embrace of European Jewry fleeing persecution before and during the War is itself said to have had antisemitic overtones on some levels. Might such false assertions inspire Japan further ITTL?

 

[The Sandman]

I'm not sure; to be honest, Japan ITTL is only taking Jews from the countries I already mentioned (i.e. those that would be relatively well-off economically, and thus perceived to be a useful addition to the Japanese nation). The Eastern European Jews, at least the poorer, agrarian ones, are still screwed. This Japan is nicer than OTL Japan, but that doesn't make it particularly nice. Those fleeing Europe who are not seen as having anything useful to contribute to the greater Japanese spirit would be left there.

And of course, once Japan enters the war in 1941, even that escape route dries up...

 

[Wendell]

I'm not sure; to be honest, Japan ITTL is only taking Jews from the countries I already mentioned (i.e. those that would be relatively well-off economically, and thus perceived to be a useful addition to the Japanese nation). The Eastern European Jews, at least the poorer, agrarian ones, are still screwed. This Japan is nicer than OTL Japan, but that doesn't make it particularly nice. Those fleeing Europe who are not seen as having anything useful to contribute to the greater Japanese spirit would be left there.

And of course, once Japan enters the war in 1941, even that escape route dries up...

Might Butterflies keep Japan out of the War?