TL-191: Postwar
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Love the new old flags lol. I have a couple more questions. Now that a Legitimist Kingdom of France exists, what will be the German Empire's policy be on Nationalist Spain? Will the Germans consider invading Spain and restore the Royalists in Madrid, or use covert tactics alongside the French to cause a pro-monarchist uprising or will they just leave Nationalist Spain alone? Also, what will the capital of France be? Will it remain in Bordeaux or will King Jaime move the royal residence back to Versailles?
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I don't think that Germany is going to bother do anything with Spain. It is not something like headache for Berlin.
In the Fall of Gondolin section you mention that it’s an allegory to the Fall of Britain and it would be outlawed in Germany. Is that supposed to be Fall of Berlin and outlawed in Germany because why would the Germans care if it was Fall of Britain.
Great update overall! Guessing a Nicaragua Canal could be in the near future. Wonder if Chester Martin will ever run for political office.
Great update overall! Guessing a Nicaragua Canal could be in the near future. Wonder if Chester Martin will ever run for political office.
With the Japanese in China and s.e asia I think the us will support the indian federation. The federation will may adopt a American style socialist economic system since there is no soviet union.
The Germans, French and other European powers may accept confederate volunteers to hold on to their colonies.
The Germans, French and other European powers may accept confederate volunteers to hold on to their colonies.
Well Mr. Ambassador we have no records of those men you are looking for. If we uncover anything we will be sure to let you know
kernel
Gone Fishin'
The Germans will probably try to diplomatically isolate Spain, but may be open to repproachment in the future. The capital of France is still Bordeaux.
In the Tolkien universe, the Fall of Gondolin is a tragedy in which an eleven city (the good guys) falls to Melkor's army (the bad guys). So the Germans probably think that the story is glorifying Britain during the Second Great War and portraying Germany's victory in a negative light
OTL Tolkien began writing what would become the Fall of Gondolin in 1917, so ITTL its highly unlikely its a metaphor for Britain in the Second Great War. However, in the prespective of German censors and publishers, a lot of the parallels would be uncanny, especially when the city is burned to the ground by dragons during the fall, similar to how London was destroyed during the superbombings.
Chester Martin will probably become a major labor leader on the West Coast, though I'm not too sure about a political career.
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Gonna be honest, France staying a monarchy, especially a conservative one, seems quite weird. Most historical monarchists would have been aligned with AF when it was in power, and the Spanish Bourbon claim was never a serious contender for legitimacy compared to the Orleans. The only reason that anyone knows about it today is that the equal irrelevance of every claimant branch means they’re on equal footing, something which was not at all the case in the ‘40s.Yeah. I'd assume the flag would look something like this:
Or this:
IMHO France should just be a Republic, especially if Germany is vaguely constitutional as it seems to be, given the SPD is competitive. Even if Germany isn’t a democracy, they would still likely install a conservative democratic republic in France. The idea that Germany would have any ideological attatchment to installing monarchies in its satellite states is perhaps one of the most frustrating misconceptions old KR has spread.
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Republic is indeed more plausible IMO or then allow Orléans to continue but monarch being very weak. And legitimist cliam hasn't been anymore very strong after Franco-Prussian War in 1871. And Germany with my understanding is very much democratic nation like OTL Britain. SPD was very strong already even in OTL and even Bismarck was unable to seriously damage them.
The danger of a republic is that it gets hijacked by the Bonapartists and becomes an Empire again. No constitution will prevent that. Look what the Freedom Party did in the CSA.
Only if Germans are so stupid that they allow that. OTL Germany hadn't get nazi government again after WW2.
1) We have the the rise AfD right now. I would not want to bet against them leading a colaition.
2) Soon after the war, yes. In the sixties, a bit harder to consider invading a country to depose its governement. In the ninities, unlikely. And it does not have to be a member of the Bonapart family. Think of a de Gaulle type figure.
kernel
Gone Fishin'
My thought process was that the Germans wanted a type of state where Actionism was guaranteed not to rise again, while also having some sort of attachment to an earlier period in French history for legitimacy.
The reason why a republic was not created was because, in the eyes of the Germans, it was the chaotic politics of the Third Republic that led to the rise of Action Francais. In their perspecive, the first republic led to Napoleon, the second republic led to Napoleon III, and the third republic led to the Actionists. As at this time Germany is headed by Goerdeler, a conservative nationalist, he may have the view that a French republic is ultimately doomed to fail and will lead France on a path towards revanchism.
As for the Legitimists, I believe they would be one of the only few factions not tainted by past enmity to Germany or Actionism. OTL while Action Francais and the Legimists were on the right, they never got along well with each other, and the Legitimist faction did not participate in the far-right politics of the Third Republic (though they later collaborated with Vichy, I highly doubt they would do the same for Actionist France with an Orleanist on the throne). Furthermore, the legitimist claimant is the brother of the former King of Spain, so giving the crown of France to him would be rewarding an ally.
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Why not the Republic, which people still remember and which hasn't been completely tainted by Actionism? Sure, it's not a particularly glorious legacy, but the legacy of the Kingdom has already been appropriated by AF.
Three points here: Has this sort of logic ever actually applied in real life? One might imagine the Allies after WWII might have been reluctant to let Germany be a Republic again if that were the case, but the BRD exists as it does nonetheless. The main constitutional problem of Weimar (an overly powerful Presidency) was solved, could the Germans not "solve" the issues of the Third Republic by creating a stronger Presidency and more rigid political system? Second, even if a Republic is unacceptable, is a Kingdom an inevitable alternative? Why not an authoritarian, corporatist, but centralised and modernist "French State" on the model of Vichy? Such a solution would probably be unacceptable to the SPD and liberals, but frankly so would a Monarchy! Finally, why would Germany not want a weak France under its hegemony? If the Allies generally learned their lesson about Germany in OTL, while still (at least in the West) restoring something resembling its pre-war system of government, why couldn't Germany "keep the French" down, to paraphrase?
Let's be clear about something here; the "Legitimists" as you're thinking of them simply did not exist as a relevant tendency. I know the Wikipedia article (awash with [citation needed]) says they did exist, but everyone I've ever talked with on the subject says otherwise. The idea that their claim was serious is a modern invention, caused by the controversial actions of the Count of Paris. No serious French monarchists supported the claims of the Spanish Bourbons, to be a monarchist in the 20th century was to be an Orleanist. Not only was there a view that a foreigner (as the Spanish Bourbons were) could not be King of France, but basically every Legitimist accepted the Orleans line after the death of the Count of Chambord. To be a monarchist was to be an Orleanist, and a monarchy headed by the Spanish Bourbons would have no legitimacy or support. The Spanish Bourbons also weren't interested in it, so it's not a reward for someone who just wants to be King of Spain. This isn't the middle ages anymore, thrones aren't interchangeable property.
The AFD is an irrelevant case, coming 80 years after the War, and Germany isn't going to treat France like the Western Allies treated Germany (which was, by the way, far stricter than most people realise), it will be much closer to how the USSR treated the Eastern Bloc. Tanks will roll as soon as an unfriendly government arises. Both the US and USSR were politically capable of doing this during the Cold War, and Germany would keep enough of a military lid on France that an occupation to remove a government would be simple. Additionally, a strongman in France is not necessarily a deal-breaker for Germany; they supported one in OTL after all.
Allowing the AF monarchy to continue is impossible; it alienates almost every possible collaborator (as in, everyone who got put in prison or exiled by AF), and it prevents a clean break from the AF regime.
kernel
Gone Fishin'
I wasn't too familiar with the politics of French monarchical restoration, especially the legitimacy of each of the factions. I'll most likely retcon my post to make France a Republic, but very authoritarian and led by Admiral Francois Darlan that is essentially a German client state.
Well you could still establish a kingdom in France, but instead have Admiral Darlan establish something similar to Hungary or Spain. He is made Regent of France (but with the full powers of a king) but has no intention of putting a monarch on the throne during his lifetime. He could make promises to surviving Orleanists and Bonapartists, but just keeps kicking the can down the road. Maybe Darlan pulls a Franco and appoints a member of one of the royal lines as his successor and grooms them to take over France after him.
Germans are not going to allow return of Bonapartes. They have fought already twice on 19th century and they are not going take new fight.
On OTL the Finns had a regent for the Grand Duke of Finalnd between the abdication of Nicholas II and a new constitution. The French could do the same here with the tweak that they would not say whether the Regent was for the Orleanists or the Bonapartists. Darlan could also follow the Antonine Emperors of Imperial Rome by appointing his own successor.