The Luftwaffe Without Hermann Göring?

[SCOUT 5249]

Hermann Göring, leader of the luftwaffe, nazi party and the most important ally of Hitler, later chosen as his successor. The man had some serious flaws, crippled the luftwaffe through a number of ways one of which was favoritism of Messerschmitt and so on.

But what if Hermann wasn't in charge of the Luftwaffe and didn't have a say in plane development?

How much would change?
What kind of planes would the luftwaffe had used?
How much more dangerous would the Luftwaffe be?

Side note if Heinkel was given the funding and backing for his designs how much would change?

 

[Roderick Hutchinson]

Well here is a side note, it is 1945 and In a rare occasion Goering is in Berlin, while he is in Berlin he is outside and he looks up, the Americans are bombing Berlin. He tells someone that he made a huge mistake in not developing strategic heavy bombers. He tell Hitler that General Walther Wever was right.

This is an urban myth, Goering may have said it, he might not have, but privately he regretted that Germany never developed four engined strategic heavy bombers. He knew that had Germany had strategic heavy bombers for Operation Eagle then the Battle of Britain might have ended with the destruction of Britain's industrial capacity to wage war then history may have played out a bit different.

 

[tomo pauk]

Hermann Göring, leader of the luftwaffe, nazi party and the most important ally of Hitler, later chosen as his successor. The man had some serious flaws, crippled the luftwaffe through a number of ways one of which was favoritism of Messerschmitt and so on.

Under Goering, LW became the most potent airforce in the world (even if it was not as a perfect airforce as it was possible; OTOH, other air forces were with the shortcomings of their own).
I'd want to hear more about the favoritism of Messerschmitt, care to elaborate?

But what if Hermann wasn't in charge of the Luftwaffe and didn't have a say in plane development?

How much would change?
What kind of planes would the luftwaffe had used?
How much more dangerous would the Luftwaffe be?

1- Who knows?
2- Probably the same by 1940?
3- It depends. Eg. if the as-is He 112 is chosen instead of the Bf 109, LW fighter force is in a much worse position. If nobody thinks about the drop tanks, LW is still ill able to deal a serious blow to the RAF in 1940. If the lackluster Do-19 is made instead of the 2-engined bombers, the payload capability per aircraft weight and engine used is awful, and so is the punch that LW can deal. OTOH, a fast adoption of the jet fighters would've saw Allies having real problems in 1943/44. Adoption of the Fw 187 instead of the Bf 110 would've been a boon, too. Another person might have an easier time to cooperate with Kriegsmarine, or make decisions about what materials go where.

Side note if Heinkel was given the funding and backing for his designs how much would change?

He 100 and He 280 were certainly promissing aircraft (although the earlier the He 100 gets the 'normal' cooling, the better) - mass introduction of these will see the LW being an even more dangerous opponent.

Well here is a side note, it is 1945 and In a rare occasion Goering is in Berlin, while he is in Berlin he is outside and he looks up, the Americans are bombing Berlin. He tells someone that he made a huge mistake in not developing strategic heavy bombers. He tell Hitler that General Walther Wever was right.

This is an urban myth, Goering may have said it, he might not have, but privately he regretted that Germany never developed four engined strategic heavy bombers. He knew that had Germany had strategic heavy bombers for Operation Eagle then the Battle of Britain might have ended with the destruction of Britain's industrial capacity to wage war then history may have played out a bit different.

Urban, or other myths will not hep us a single bit. Let's not pretend that we know what the officials regretted privately.
German 4-engined bombers were meh before the capable, but very troublesome He 177. They will have a half of them for the BoB vs. the 2-engined types, and they still lack proper fighter escort in 1940.

 

[Gudestein]

Kind of a sideshow, but what if this alternate Leader enforced more collaboration? An outcome for he177 could be a dornier engine installation with two normal, push/pull engines per side.

 

[Roderick Hutchinson]

Or that the He-177 is developed as a four engined heavy strategic bomber, rather than a twin engined heavy dive bomber

 

[tomo pauk]

Kind of a sideshow, but what if this alternate Leader enforced more collaboration? An outcome for he177 could be a dornier engine installation with two normal, push/pull engines per side.

Make a normal, classic 4-engined bomber and that's it?
Already probably the Ju-90 had what it takes to became a decent 4-engined bomber.

Or that the He-177 is developed as a four engined heavy strategic bomber, rather than a twin engined heavy dive bomber

He 177 was already a strategic bomber.
Engine halves were able to work independently one from another, allowing eg. that one double engine works in one side and half of another engine at another side, or that two halves (each per side) work. Twinned engines were too much trouble, really; going with usual 4-engined layout would've spared them a lot of grief.

 

[Roderick Hutchinson]

Make a normal, classic 4-engined bomber and that's it?
Already probably the Ju-90 had what it takes to became a decent 4-engined bomber.


He 177 was already a strategic bomber.
Engine halves were able to work independently one from another, allowing eg. that one double engine works in one side and half of another engine at another side, or that two halves (each per side) work. Twinned engines were too much trouble, really; going with usual 4-engined layout would've spared them a lot of grief.

The reason that the He-177 came out the way it did with twin engine configurations was Heinkel itself designing it from the outset as a twin engined heavy dive bomber, not a strategic heavy bombers, was that Heinkel found that having two engines reduced air drag over the wings thus making it faster during dive bombing attacks.

Oh thanks for your info on the engines, interesting.

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

Seems fairly academic. Germany only had enough resources for a tactical or strategic bomber focus, and given a choice between a four-engine and a Ju 88, it’s easy to argue the 88 is a better deal.

 

[tomo pauk]

The reason that the He-177 came out the way it did with twin engine configurations was Heinkel itself designing it from the outset as a twin engined heavy dive bomber, not a strategic heavy bombers,

It was a strategic heavy bomber too, flawed as it was.

was that Heinkel found that having two engines reduced air drag over the wings thus making it faster during dive bombing attacks.

Reduced drag was beneficial during the level flight, and probably during the climb.
During the dive, designers were trying to add the drag, in form of dive brakes, so the A/C is controllable and does not overload and disintegrate doing the pull-up.

Oh thanks for your info on the engines, interesting.

No problems.
FWIW, what was discussed about some German bombers: link (registration is free, so the pictures are visible)

Seems fairly academic. Germany only had enough resources for a tactical or strategic bomber focus, and given a choice between a four-engine and a Ju 88, it’s easy to argue the 88 is a better deal.

Where does the He 111 fit?

 

[Roderick Hutchinson]

It was a strategic heavy bomber too, flawed as it was.

Reduced drag was beneficial during the level flight, and probably during the climb.
During the dive, designers were trying to add the drag, in form of dive brakes, so the A/C is controllable and does not overload and disintegrate doing the pull-up.



No problems.
FWIW, what was discussed about some German bombers: link (registration is free, so the pictures are visible)


Where does the He 111 fit?

As far as I know the He-111 was a twin engined heavy bomber, while th Ju-88 was a twin engine medium bomber.

 

[ennobee]

The big question is not wether the Luftwaffe headquarters were a hotbed of political infighting and favoritism. The big question is neither whether Göring with all his flows and fits of rage was the one person perfectly symbolizing this situation.

The question is in how much Göring inherited the situation, how much he could have changed it if he tried harder or of he ever tried rather than playing the game to his advantage.

Then the question is if any general or airman replacing him would be able to change the political culture of the upper echelons, or even play it not to his advantage but to the best possible outcome by historical hindsight.
I mean who do we have? Weber, Milch, Udet? Wolfram von Richthofen Jr? All just as flawed as Fat Herman himself. The only difference would be that Udet at least had flair....

Finally if there were a real competent leader in charge of the Luftwaffe? How would air power fare against the German army and Navy in the overpoliticized supercharged climate that was the Nazi Germany leadership?

Call me sceptical, but the only person who could really make a difference would be a Mary Sue AH.com isekai with historical hindsight and Godlike powers.

 

[NoMommsen]

Make a normal, classic 4-engined bomber and that's it?
Already probably the Ju-90 had what it takes to became a decent 4-engined bomber.


He 177 was already a strategic bomber.

... well ... MAYOR problem for the He 177 was the dive-bombing ability was written already in its first demands for development by the in his position Goering caused Udet. Both were unable to think in strategic air-war categories and reduced it simply/simplicistic to the size of payload delivered. ... in the in bothe their eyes only possible method of at least some accuracy: dive-bombing

.... Twinned engines were too much trouble, really; going with usual 4-engined layout would've spared them a lot of grief.

Sry but I tend to disagree. The "twin-emgine" config worked well and fine. ... IF ... given enough space in their nacelles as in the He 119 or the Me 261 (the latter in the same 4-enigne-made-by-two-twins manner) both flown and tested well before the He 177. With more space diven the engines did not become as hot (better ventilation of the nacelle) causing the regardless how well constructed engines unavoidably leaking fluids) to get ingnited.

But for arerodynamic reasons - Heinkel was quite a fan for - the solution of larger (aka somewhat more drag) nacelles was never really considered.
... not the least Heinkel himself didn't really endorse the dive-bombing rendering a larger winged (comming with some more reach also) 4-engined version MUCH more 'strategic' himself.

 

[tomo pauk]

Sry but I tend to disagree. The "twin-emgine" config worked well and fine. ... IF ... given enough space in their nacelles as in the He 119 or the Me 261 (the latter in the same 4-enigne-made-by-two-twins manner) both flown and tested well before the He 177. With more space diven the engines did not become as hot (better ventilation of the nacelle) causing the regardless how well constructed engines unavoidably leaking fluids) to get ingnited.

Wider nacelles will be more draggy, possibly negating a good deal of the drag reduction that double engines were supposed to offer. In that case, going with 4 separate engines, each in it's nacelle, strikes me as an easier thing to do. It also eases up the engines' interchangeability - if there is a surplus of DB engines, can do well with Jumno 211. Or, if/when the engine situation improves, it can go with BMW 801 instead of the DB 601/605s.
Going with separate engines can prevent that a lucky hit disables half of engines on a heavy aircraft.

 

[NoMommsen]

@tomo pauk
What ignores once again the dive-bombing demand and the stability and 'ruggednes' necessary for becoming more unattainable as longer the winf span.
... and the amount of drag 'penalty' - with even only a wee involvement of i.e. Goettingen arerodynamical institute - IMHO wouldn't never amount to a single 4-engine variant.

However, MAIN problem :

find someone within the LW/leading LW to skip the dive-bombing demand right from the beginning ​

 

[tomo pauk]

What ignores once again the dive-bombing demand and the stability and 'ruggednes' necessary for becoming more unattainable as longer the winf span.
... and the amount of drag 'penalty' - with even only a wee involvement of i.e. Goettingen arerodynamical institute - IMHO wouldn't never amount to a single 4-engine variant.

At least two question emerge:
- just how good was the He 177 in the dive-bombing role
- who proved that a 4 engined aircraft can't dive as good as a He 177

However, MAIN problem :
find someone within the LW/leading LW to skip the dive-bombing demand right from the beginning

For the 4-engined bombers - I agree.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

Heinkel went with the DB606 configuration from the start, the dive bombing requirement was later added. Though except the diving requirement, many of the problems of the He 177 can easily be placed at Heinkel's feet and his idiotic design decisions that lead to issues and delays. (The DB606 was not the issue, how he employed them was)

 

[Roderick Hutchinson]

Heinkel went with the DB606 configuration from the start, the dive bombing requirement was later added. Though except the diving requirement, many of the problems of the He 177 can easily be placed at Heinkel's feet and his idiotic design decisions that lead to issues and delays. (The DB606 was not the issue, how he employed them was)

Have the He-177 fly with BMW-801 engines from the start.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

Have the He-177 fly with BMW-801 engines from the start.

I have the feeling that Heinkel would mess it even worse than with the DB606 with his low drag obsession. Still, that doesn't solve the structural weaknesses of the airframe itself. Rechlin tests found out that the real values were 1/3 of the ones calculated by Heinkel engineers.

 

[Gudestein]

The reason that the He-177 came out the way it did with twin engine configurations was Heinkel itself designing it from the outset as a twin engined heavy dive bomber, not a strategic heavy bombers, was that Heinkel found that having two engines reduced air drag over the wings thus making it faster during dive bombing attacks.

Oh thanks for your info on the engines, interesting.

Which is why the dornier push-pull configuration might save the Day and actually work with the enganced glide performance

 

[The History Man]

A strategic bomber fleet would have been developed. Probably the Do19 and Ju89, followed by the Do219 and He177 (with four engines from the start).

The Ju87 would have been binned for the Luftwaffe. Possibly a role in the Kriegsmarine instead.

The Fw190 would have replaced the Me109 by 1942 and served as both a fighter and fighter-bomber.

The Me110 would have been used as a night fighter and intruder rather than as a day fighter in the destroyer role.

The requirement for all bombers to be capable of making diving attacks would have been binned.