Stop the Plague of Sprawl!

[riggerrob]

... You're not just screwing the greens (who I have no real sympathy for, don't mistake me), you're screwing everybody living nearer the center of the city--& destroying farmland that cannot be replaced. That is not good for the future.[/QUOTE]

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Because only a tiny percentage of British Columbia is arable land, we have Agricultural Land Reserves to protect farmland. Real estate developers are always trying to weasel land out of the ALR. Much of the ALR is on the Fraser River flood plain/swamp land so it is stupid to build on it, but every few years some developer bribes the right politician to get permits to build housing on flood plains. Any one stupid enough to contemplate buyinghosuing onteh flood plain should ahve to stand neck-deep in a drainage ditch during the spring floods.
The only other exception is religious buildings, so we see obscenely large catherdrals, gurdwaras, temples, etc. built on former ALR flood plain land.

Any one contemplating building on the Fraser River flood plain should read "The Hundred Mile Diet" which explains how few foods are grown within commuting distance of Vancouver.

 

[riggerrob]

"... Why not taller buildings becoming standard? Or building down, into "hives"? Or both? ... think of all the shopping malls & a wide & busy street close to where I lived (or to where I live now): if that street was half as wide, & those malls had underground parking, there would be room for hundreds of houses along it. (If the mall buildings were multi-floored instead of sprawling ..."

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Densification is already happening in Vancouver. Several single-story Safeway grocery stores have already been torn and replaced by 30 story condo buildings with Safeway grocery stores on the ground floors. This densification is occurring along Skytrain and major bus routes.

Meanwhile several Royal Canadian legion branches have sold their land (in Kerrisdale, Port Coquitlam and Port Moody) to real estate developers who build 40 story condos, but set aside a floor or two for the Legion. The Port Moody Legion is only a couple of blocks from a transit hub that includes Skytrain, commuter trains and buses.

Even the North Vancouver United Church has negotiated a deal with a real estate develper to build a high-rise condo building on teh current church property, but the faithful will still have a sacred space to pray in the new building.

 

[riggerrob]

back east, I suppose that's true. But where I've lived in MT, ID, and now WY, wilderness isn't far away. My house here in Cheyenne is literally one block from the edge of town; beyond that is nothing but open fields. I've found snakes and rabbits in my yard, antelope roam the fields in the winter, hawks abound year round, I get a lot of birds and butterflies in my gardens in the summer... I love it where I live. Living in a apartment in the middle of town would cut me off from all that. I do get your point about how contracting suburbs would help the environment, cut down on fuel use and emissions, etc. I just don't want to be one of those forced to do it...

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Good point, I would rather live in a densely-populated (multi-story) suburb, within walking distance of mass transit and close access to walking trails, forests, etc.

 

[riggerrob]

... I think Michelle Obama had a good idea in showing kids how to grow fruits and vegetables so they get an appreciation of what healthy food is and how it comes to be, some sense of participation in making it happen. ...

Kids can learn the basics of vegetable growing with window boxes or potted plants.

 

[riggerrob]

... Arizona & New Mexico talking about how Canada "has to give us water". Take some advice from Bill Maher: turn off the damn fountains. Tear up the golf courses. ...

I'm waiting for the first water pipelines from Canada. Expect them to get blown up pretty fast...[/QUOTE]

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With the exception of the Great Lakes, most of Canada's fresh water is many thousands of miles from the US border.

 

[riggerrob]

A third question - what happens when they reach that growth line in all directions and still have a demand for expansion?

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Build upwards. Knock down the most dilapidated single-story houses and replace them with low-rise (up to 4 story) apartments.

 

[Workable Goblin]

You know there's a multi-quote function, right? Just click the small button that looks like a quote mark and a + superimposed on a piece of paper to the right of the big button labeled "quote" and it will be added to your multi-quote for the thread. Then hit post as usual and all of the posts you quoted will automatically be added, like so:

[ quote ]Quote 1[ /quote ]
[ quote ]Quote 2[ /quote ]

and so on. Just expand them and insert your responses like so:

[ quote ]Quote 1[ /quote ]

Response 1

[ quote ]Quote 2[ /quote ]

Response 2

and so on, which is much nicer for people who follow the thread (since we get pinged every time there is a post, which is a little annoying if it's the same person posting six or seven times in a row). Also, you're responding to posts from two or three years ago, which is a little bit pointless. Better to make a new thread.

 

[riggerrob]

Except the reason for removing the car-based infrastructure needs to precede doing it, & that's the problem.

No argument prima facie. The trouble is, you've got nutty tax laws making it more attractive (more cost-effective) to farmers to sell out to developers than continue farming. Again, you need to address the underlying problem.

Any thoughts on how? Who? When?

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As the cost of gasoline increases, it will become too expensive to import fresh vegetables (from Chile to North America) and local farmers will again become popular.
Try reading "The Hundred Mile Diet."

 

[riggerrob]

... Something else comes to mind: what about the Dust Bowl? Was there any prospect of the U.S. Government going in & buying up the mortgages? ...

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The Dust Bowl was created by white farmers plowing marginal land before they understoodthe climatic cycles. Sure they got a few good crops during moist years, but when the land dried out, it became useless. Since rainfall is too scarce and unpredictable, the only way to irrigate the Dust Bowl is drill into aquifers (at best a 100 year solution) or pipe in water from hundreds of miles away. Neither of those is a thousand year solution.
Dry land can only be used for thin grazing.

 

[riggerrob]

So in essence it would take an economic, social, and environmental upheaval in the early-mid 20th century of almost Biblical proportions to avoid suburban sprawl in the USA.

I agree. Given the relative prosperity of Americans (even in the Depression), the popularity of personal automobiles, the cultural values favoring individualism and wide open spaces, already dispersed population and idealization of "rural life" symbolized by private detatched homes "with land", suburban sprawl would have occurred irrespective of whether or not Interstate Highways were built. You'd have to radically alter the very culture of America to avoid that.

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Like he said "only domestic oil."
It would also help if Hollywood portrayed row houses as more glamorous than single family detached houses.

 

[TxCoatl1970]

@riggerrob Excellent points about the Dust Bowl and BC agricultural set-asides. Thumbs up sir!

@zoomar Not to necro old points in the thread but read my old posts about why US housing stock stagnated from 1929-1945. Sure folks always wanted a space of their own, but look at the tremendous social upheavals of Biblical proportions due to the Dust Bowl, Great Depression, and WWII. Americans have always been a little restless, but outside of the Civil War, nothing did more to uproot and cast Americans to the wind from their hometowns and neighborhoods than those three events.
Add in the amazing abilities to make almost anything appear anywhere and how adaptable folks became- suddenly fighting to get home to the same old town or neighborhood wasn't as bitter a fight.

YMMDV. TheMann's gone to great lengths arguing how the US and Canada could do much better. Check out his TL's- Transport America, and The Land of Milk and Honey for how we could!

 

[riggerrob]

.... Air conditioning played a big part in making places like Phoenix and Houston habitable for Northern or Midwestern folks willing to come south. ...
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Most of those air-conditioners ran on cheap electricity generated by dams (TVA, Hoover, Grand Coolee, etc.) built during the 1930s by governement relief projects.

 

[Beedok]

I don't really understand anyone who isn't a gardener wanting a house.

 

[riggerrob]

If by Expo '67 you mean this then God no, that's horrific.

I mean this, terrace houses with private back gardens. It's high density, low cost, environmentally friendly (with modern insulation), very livable and generally the best way of housing an urban population.

I grew up near Montreal and thought that Habitat 67 was an ugly example of the concrete brutal style of architecture, the fisrt time I saw it.
I still think concrete brutal is one of the more ugly styles of architecture.

I would much rather live in a European-style row house, with a solid concrete wall separating me from my neighbors. Row houses are way more thermally and structurally efficient because only 3/5 as many outer surfaces are exposed to winter winds.

 

[TxCoatl1970]

@riggerrob Excellent points about air conditioning and the hydroelecrtic projects that did so much to improve quality of life and access to modern conveniences like A/C but I implied that by how adaptable folks became.

As a native Texan whose Anglo ancestors came two and three generations before A/C became widespread, they had to be desperate, wanted by the law, ornery, or crazy to want to settle places like San Angelo, Midland, and Dalhart.

That Expo '67 architecture is more of a Tomorrowland fantasy than a plan for better living, though the view might be nice. Does it face the St Lawrence?

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Could the rise of environmental-friendly futuristic-ish cities be a good option?

 

[Dave Howery]

I don't really understand anyone who isn't a gardener wanting a house.

it really depends on your situation. If you're a young single person, you want to be around others like you, and near the bars and places they hang out; which is downtown. If you're married with children, suburbs and places away from busy streets/crime start looking pretty good. If you grew up in a small town and liked it, suburbs are appealing. If you grew up in a small town and hated it, downtown looks appealing. Plus, there's always the factor of 'I don't want to pay rent for 15 years and have nothing to show for it; I want to pay a mortgage for 15 years and have a house at the end of it'. Granted, that's not for everyone, but it rings true for a lot of people...

 

[riggerrob]

@riggerrob Excellent points about air conditioning and the hydroelecrtic projects that did so much to improve quality of life and access to modern conveniences like A/C but I implied that by how adaptable folks became.

As a native Texan whose Anglo ancestors came two and three generations before A/C became widespread, they had to be desperate, wanted by the law, ornery, or crazy to want to settle places like San Angelo, Midland, and Dalhart.

That Expo '67 architecture is more of a Tomorrowland fantasy than a plan for better living, though the view might be nice. Does it face the St Lawrence?

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Yes, Habitat 67 is built in the old harbor. Many windows look South, towards the St. Lawrence River.

 

[Beedok]

it really depends on your situation. If you're a young single person, you want to be around others like you, and near the bars and places they hang out; which is downtown. If you're married with children, suburbs and places away from busy streets/crime start looking pretty good. If you grew up in a small town and liked it, suburbs are appealing. If you grew up in a small town and hated it, downtown looks appealing. Plus, there's always the factor of 'I don't want to pay rent for 15 years and have nothing to show for it; I want to pay a mortgage for 15 years and have a house at the end of it'. Granted, that's not for everyone, but it rings true for a lot of people...

In many Canadian cities crime rates are similar or higher in the suburbs vs. downtown. As for renting, condos are a pretty major set up where you pay a mortgage and own something at the end.

Really the reason suburbs are better for families is because there's been a lack of families in the downtowns. Back in the day it made sense to move away from pollution, but nowadays the density of parks, museums, etc. means that urban areas should be inviting for families.

 

[marathag]

What if Henry Ford was unable to attract mass consumption of cars through inexpensive models? What if cars like the Model T simply did not catch on with the public - this way, fewer urban and suburban Americans would own automobiles, and there would be more reliance on living nearer to where you worked.

Henry Ford did not invent the Entry Level Automobile.

He just was able to build them a little cheaper and much faster, yet while having better durability than cars costing twice as much.

Butterfly away Ford, or say he loses his Selden Patent battles, doesn't matter.

Ford's domination of the low end market didn't start till 1912, four years after the Model T came out

People will still buy Oldsmobiles, Ramblers, Maxwells and Buicks