The exchange rate was $4.03 to the £. So the $150M would be £37.2M, or 0.93 % of the total.
It adds up, don’t get me wrong. But it is still a big hill to climb.
Last edited:
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
It adds up, don’t get me wrong. But it is still a big hill to climb.
If you filled the wing tanks with fuel you could get a Halifax out to just under 2,000 miles with a 13,500lb bomb load.
There's some figures for the post-war airliner conversion (Hermes) which suggest removing 2,000lb of payload got you 300miles ish of range. So finger in the air if you want the same 3,000 mile range payload is going to be at least halved, but is certainly possible.
It gets them out of the UK supply chain which the logistics people will thank you for and gets some better use out of them than just training.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The problem with sending Churchill tanks to China, is first of all getting them there, as at present ITTL there are only two ways of doing it, one of which has a snowballs chance in hell of happening. While it some strange universe you can convince the Soviets to transport them from Murmansk via Moscow, then onto the Chinese border, and then across the border to the front. Or you can essentially disassemble your tanks in Rangoon, then transport them over the Burma Road to Kumning in China, and ether then reassemble them or transport them to the front. However as China has nether the infrastructure, resources or training to support them, just trying to get them to a front will be immensely difficult , verging on the impossible. Anything larger than the M3 Stuart, is going to be a tremendous drain on Chinese resources, and require a massive investment in infrastructure.
RR.
RR.
14 March 1942. London, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
14 March 1942. London, England.
Major-General Brian Horrocks left the interview with some degree of both excitement and nervousness. Having commanded 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division since the previous summer, Horrocks was well pleased with what he had accomplished there. Working under Lieutenant-General Bernard Montgomery, starting as a Battalion, then Brigade commander, his promotion to GOC 43rd Division had much to do with Montgomery’s influence. In the recent XII Corps exercise, Horrock’s leadership of his Division had shone out as one of things that XII Corps could be proud of.
9th Armoured Division had been formed in late 1940 under the command of Major-General Montague Burrows, who’d done a good job getting them equipped and trained. Between (acting) General Paget (GOCinC Home Forces) and General Brooke (CIGS), there’d been a lot of discussion about the state of some of the Divisions under their command.
Two major problems were firstly ‘aid to civilian powers’, which all too often had soldiers off helping with harvests, clearing up after air raids, even mending roads. This hampered the training schedules and often left the soldiers ‘browned off’. The second problem was the uneven levels of training. This was a problem harking back to the days when training was the responsibility of the unit commander. For some, like Montgomery, this was taken very seriously, for others, less so. A recent innovation (or rather recreation) was of Battle Schools, where men could be exposed to the sights, sounds and reality of the battlefield as much as possible. The arrival of combat veterans of North Africa was benefiting these schools.
Horrocks was asked to take over command of 9th Armoured Division. Like the rest of the Armoured Divisions, it was about to undergo a change in Basic Organisation. While Major-General Burrows had done a good job up until now, Brooke had an idea that he wanted to test out. The RAF had given a demonstration of No 1426 (Enemy Aircraft Circus) Flight at Duxford to the General Staff and Brooke had noted that they were being used to familiarise the RAF Squadrons with the enemy aircraft they were fighting. There was a growing bounty of captured German and Italian tanks, vehicles, artillery and other equipment of all types, and Brooke thought an Enemy Panzer Circus would be a good idea to help with training.
During the recent exercise the Guards Armoured Division had played the Opposition Force to Montgomery’s XII Corps. The problem was that British tactics were being used against British tactics, without great thought going in to thinking as the enemy. Horrocks had been offered was command of 9th Armoured Division with the proviso he was to turn into a Panzer Division. Not only were there plenty of captured German equipment, there were also plenty of POWs, and from their interrogations a pretty good idea of German training and tactics had been gleaned. Brooke wanted Horrocks to learn those tactics, and reform 9th Armoured Division into the same basic organisation as 9th Panzer Division. In doing so, it would give all the British units the chance to take on a panzer division on the training fields.
Horrocks had wondered why he’d been chosen, he was not expert on the German army and, as an infantry officer, had no real experience of leading an Armoured formation. This was precisely why Brooke and Paget had marked him out. In taking command of an Armoured Division, Horrocks would have to start from scratch, learning the ways of armoured warfare. 9th Panzer Division had fought against Charrington’s Armoured Brigade in Greece, which had given a decent account of itself. By having a standing Opposition Force, including some of the captured enemy vehicles and equipment, the British army could be trained to meet and fight an enemy, rather than just a mirror image of itself.
Brooke had the latest intelligence assessment of 9.Panzer Division, which was currently in Russia, and gave to Horrocks as a starting point. Paget put a unit from MI19 at Horrocks’ disposal, giving him access to all the POW materials, including from MI9 which they had taken over from. Brooke assured Horrocks that whatever reasonable requests he had to form this unit would be granted. The only thing he could think of immediately was translators, he would need plenty of German speakers if he was going to be able to get into the mind of the enemy. Paget took a note of that and promised he’d do his best, even though pretty much everyone was looking for people who spoke German.
One of the other reasons for choosing Horrocks was he’d spent most of the Great War in German POW camps, and had picked up fluency in both German and Russian. Before his appointment, Brooke was keen for Horrocks to make his way to the Eastern Front. Brooke wanted Horrocks to be able to get an idea of how the Germans were fighting in Russia; to see if there was anything that could be learned from the Red Army’s tactics; and seek the latest German equipment that the Russians might have captured. He would only have a short time to achieve all this, and get back to make 9th British Panzer Division a reality.
Major-General Brian Horrocks left the interview with some degree of both excitement and nervousness. Having commanded 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division since the previous summer, Horrocks was well pleased with what he had accomplished there. Working under Lieutenant-General Bernard Montgomery, starting as a Battalion, then Brigade commander, his promotion to GOC 43rd Division had much to do with Montgomery’s influence. In the recent XII Corps exercise, Horrock’s leadership of his Division had shone out as one of things that XII Corps could be proud of.
9th Armoured Division had been formed in late 1940 under the command of Major-General Montague Burrows, who’d done a good job getting them equipped and trained. Between (acting) General Paget (GOCinC Home Forces) and General Brooke (CIGS), there’d been a lot of discussion about the state of some of the Divisions under their command.
Two major problems were firstly ‘aid to civilian powers’, which all too often had soldiers off helping with harvests, clearing up after air raids, even mending roads. This hampered the training schedules and often left the soldiers ‘browned off’. The second problem was the uneven levels of training. This was a problem harking back to the days when training was the responsibility of the unit commander. For some, like Montgomery, this was taken very seriously, for others, less so. A recent innovation (or rather recreation) was of Battle Schools, where men could be exposed to the sights, sounds and reality of the battlefield as much as possible. The arrival of combat veterans of North Africa was benefiting these schools.
Horrocks was asked to take over command of 9th Armoured Division. Like the rest of the Armoured Divisions, it was about to undergo a change in Basic Organisation. While Major-General Burrows had done a good job up until now, Brooke had an idea that he wanted to test out. The RAF had given a demonstration of No 1426 (Enemy Aircraft Circus) Flight at Duxford to the General Staff and Brooke had noted that they were being used to familiarise the RAF Squadrons with the enemy aircraft they were fighting. There was a growing bounty of captured German and Italian tanks, vehicles, artillery and other equipment of all types, and Brooke thought an Enemy Panzer Circus would be a good idea to help with training.
During the recent exercise the Guards Armoured Division had played the Opposition Force to Montgomery’s XII Corps. The problem was that British tactics were being used against British tactics, without great thought going in to thinking as the enemy. Horrocks had been offered was command of 9th Armoured Division with the proviso he was to turn into a Panzer Division. Not only were there plenty of captured German equipment, there were also plenty of POWs, and from their interrogations a pretty good idea of German training and tactics had been gleaned. Brooke wanted Horrocks to learn those tactics, and reform 9th Armoured Division into the same basic organisation as 9th Panzer Division. In doing so, it would give all the British units the chance to take on a panzer division on the training fields.
Horrocks had wondered why he’d been chosen, he was not expert on the German army and, as an infantry officer, had no real experience of leading an Armoured formation. This was precisely why Brooke and Paget had marked him out. In taking command of an Armoured Division, Horrocks would have to start from scratch, learning the ways of armoured warfare. 9th Panzer Division had fought against Charrington’s Armoured Brigade in Greece, which had given a decent account of itself. By having a standing Opposition Force, including some of the captured enemy vehicles and equipment, the British army could be trained to meet and fight an enemy, rather than just a mirror image of itself.
Brooke had the latest intelligence assessment of 9.Panzer Division, which was currently in Russia, and gave to Horrocks as a starting point. Paget put a unit from MI19 at Horrocks’ disposal, giving him access to all the POW materials, including from MI9 which they had taken over from. Brooke assured Horrocks that whatever reasonable requests he had to form this unit would be granted. The only thing he could think of immediately was translators, he would need plenty of German speakers if he was going to be able to get into the mind of the enemy. Paget took a note of that and promised he’d do his best, even though pretty much everyone was looking for people who spoke German.
One of the other reasons for choosing Horrocks was he’d spent most of the Great War in German POW camps, and had picked up fluency in both German and Russian. Before his appointment, Brooke was keen for Horrocks to make his way to the Eastern Front. Brooke wanted Horrocks to be able to get an idea of how the Germans were fighting in Russia; to see if there was anything that could be learned from the Red Army’s tactics; and seek the latest German equipment that the Russians might have captured. He would only have a short time to achieve all this, and get back to make 9th British Panzer Division a reality.
allanpcameron
Donor
Now I know that the above is pretty much a weird idea. The two issues are real - training levels being inconsistent and aid to the civilian powers interrupting training schedules. The other difference is that the numbers and quality of British Armoured Divisions in the UK are in a better condition that OTL. Hence having the space and time to think through confronting the Germans in due course. So, anyway, its my story and I'll continue making it up as we go along! 
Allan
Allan
Ah, fair. There's also the matter of when the change of ownership happens. Right out of the factories? Once it leaves American shores? Once it arrived in Britain?
Well this is an intresting develop, sweat now bleed later is a very good adage and being able to fight some faux Germans and Italians with atrocious accents will go a long way to helping British forces get used to how the Germans fight and think.
Maybe worth putting what ever American forces end up in the UK through whatever they call this British Panzer Division. Though if the US amry staff agree to it is anyone's guess
Maybe worth putting what ever American forces end up in the UK through whatever they call this British Panzer Division. Though if the US amry staff agree to it is anyone's guess
Last edited:
Well I wonder if the Americans will want to try an armoured division against the British Panzer division?Now I know that the above is pretty much a weird idea. The two issues are real - training levels being inconsistent and aid to the civilian powers interrupting training schedules. The other difference is that the numbers and quality of British Armoured Divisions in the UK are in a better condition that OTL. Hence having the space and time to think through confronting the Germans in due course. So, anyway, its my story and I'll continue making it up as we go along!
Allan
Depends who he's up against. If it's O'Connor he might be okay. I mean, it'd be bad losing to some random nobody, but losing to the man who kicked the Germans out of North Africa wouldn't be so bad.
IIRC, in OTL training for D-Day, American forces were familiarized with German infantry weapons they were likely to encounter. There was even a training film issued.
www.forces.net
Enemy weapons: This WW2 film showed US troops how to fire captured German guns on D-Day
The US War Department wanted all American troops to know how to handle German infantry small arms during the Normandy Landings.
Now I know that the above is pretty much a weird idea. The two issues are real - training levels being inconsistent and aid to the civilian powers interrupting training schedules. The other difference is that the numbers and quality of British Armoured Divisions in the UK are in a better condition that OTL. Hence having the space and time to think through confronting the Germans in due course. So, anyway, its my story and I'll continue making it up as we go along!
Allan
Makes complete sense, this the sort of wacky stuff they were coming up with regularly IOTL, just more breathing room means ideas get realised.
And there I was thinking you’d come up with this excellent idea through watching I’m Alright Jack & A Private’s Progress…
Hmm reading back over the chapter a thought occurs to me given they probably captured more German Generals at this point than OTL if they are doing the same thing they did then they are locked up in a heavily bugged manor house with an agent posing as an eccentric lord with black market connections and subtlety squeezing then for all they are worth
Heck RAF did it otl after questioning with pilots and the like and had them sat in bugged cells and let the various pilots in there talk shop. Army maybe doing something similar for various Lts, Captains, Majors and colonels they have stick them in bugged holding cells were they can and let them talk.
Heck RAF did it otl after questioning with pilots and the like and had them sat in bugged cells and let the various pilots in there talk shop. Army maybe doing something similar for various Lts, Captains, Majors and colonels they have stick them in bugged holding cells were they can and let them talk.
Last edited:
I think the Bugged Mansion was only for Generals etc. Frankly, I think that the German Officers in question would become very suspicious when they realised that they were all from Panzer Divisions and had been moved to these lovely new accomodations.