No worries mate - been enjoying your ships shape and Bristol fashion story
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Huh rereading this timeline and I have to say compared with OTL the British postion diplomatically is going to be a lot stronger. Even if we just focus on the tanks the greater number of victories by British and Commonwealth forces gives it a much stronger hand to play with diplomatically.
Like aside from freeing up forces to fight the Japanese as well as scaring the hell out of franco. It also means the USA can't put as much pressure on the Brits I think.
Also one big downside is if Operation Torch doesn't happen it means a lot of inexperienced formations will be hitting Sicily if that goes down the same way.
Like aside from freeing up forces to fight the Japanese as well as scaring the hell out of franco. It also means the USA can't put as much pressure on the Brits I think.
Also one big downside is if Operation Torch doesn't happen it means a lot of inexperienced formations will be hitting Sicily if that goes down the same way.
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Yeah. Britain's record is now much firmer, France was lost in large part due to French incompetence (and even then, the British managed to give them a couple of bloody noses), Greece was a strategic withdrawal in good order despite the Germans having a significant advantage in all fields (and they managed to keep Crete), and North Africa has been a significant success.
A lot of the troops at D-Day were seeing combat for the first time, so it's not that much of an imposition.
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True but a lot of their generals where involved in that operation as well as a number of staff officers. They won't learn the lessons they learnt their which means it will be a lot harder for them.
I presume they're still going to do Dieppe, or a similar raid, just a bit earlier.
Dieppe might not happen ITTL, in fact I would say it won't happen. We can all see that the fighting in North Africa will be wrapping up fairly soon, possibly in the next month or so even. With nothing to focus on then the next place the British will look to attack will be on the continent in some form, either Mainland Greece or more likely Sicily with a probable Greek Island campaign of some sort thrown in for good measure. Any Greek Island invaded will take the place of Dieppe and an invasion of Sicily planned for 1942 will also remove some of the reasoning behind the raid. After all Sicily is a good place to start and is close enough to continental Europe to satisfy the Americans in all likelihood. Also there probably won't be the shipping to do anything beyond one major Invasion late in the year and the odd Greek Island.
So Rhodes takes the place of Dieppe? I hope most of the same lessons can be drawn from it.
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From what I remember of Rhodes the coastal territory could be nightmarish to force though this will probably depend on if the Italian Garrison is willing to resist and as well as any resources could be transported to them.
Given its proximity to Crete which is still in the hand of the allies as well as Cyprus and attempt by the Axis to reinforce or supply it will be ticklish.
Given its proximity to Crete which is still in the hand of the allies as well as Cyprus and attempt by the Axis to reinforce or supply it will be ticklish.
I would think Sicily would be the appropriate place which would open up the Mediterranean to shipping,it has airfields, harbors and usable beaches.
So similar to Dieppe in some important ways, with the added bonus that, even with some screw-ups, you might be able to win?
But requires a massive number of landing-craft that you just don't have right now.
If possible after Sicily would it be worth considering follow-on landings after the island is secure of Sardinia and Corsica?
Sardinia would be a major political and moral blow since you would be taking the original seat of the Italian kings and also give you the possibility of building up air bases to give you greater coverage across mainland Italy.
With Corsica well assuming the Germans follow OTL and take out the Vichy at some point in the future then liberating it would be a major boost to the Free French as well potentially being a soft target.
For another, at that point, I imagine the garrison will be in a piss poor state at that point in both material and moral terms. So it will probably make it easier to take assuming the Italians and Germans don't try to fly in reinforcements but that would be dicey given the Allies will probably be running patrols as well as considering they will have manpower commitments in Russia at that point.
Sardinia would be a major political and moral blow since you would be taking the original seat of the Italian kings and also give you the possibility of building up air bases to give you greater coverage across mainland Italy.
With Corsica well assuming the Germans follow OTL and take out the Vichy at some point in the future then liberating it would be a major boost to the Free French as well potentially being a soft target.
Well in some ways not in others, for one it's warmer.
For another, at that point, I imagine the garrison will be in a piss poor state at that point in both material and moral terms. So it will probably make it easier to take assuming the Italians and Germans don't try to fly in reinforcements but that would be dicey given the Allies will probably be running patrols as well as considering they will have manpower commitments in Russia at that point.
Sooty
Banned
I thought that the real reason for Dieppe was to get a Naval Enigma and code books from the Kriegsmarine HQ in town, but Ian Fleming's raiding group could not find the building as all they had was a tourist pre-war post card of the town to find it!
Sicily needs more landing craft than are currently available.
In contrast Rhodes is Italian, not particularly strongly held, much harder to reinforce than Sicily. While Sicily is a springboard to invade Italy, loss of Rhodes weakens the axis hold on Greece and reduces axis influence on Turkey. If Mussolini is somehow still hanging in there after losing every Italian holding in Africa and being beaten up in Albania, losing Rhodes will surely finish him off.
The thing is, he can't hold Rhodes unless he drives off the RN, which the remains of his navy are unlikely to do. The coastal defences go up to 6" guns, so the RN can outrange them with 8" cruisers and the older battleships. Air defences may be a problem, but carrier airgroups can probably deal with any second string aircraft. I'm not sure if Crete or other land based air is within range of Rhodes but that would be better still for the allies.
Another advantage of Rhodes over Sicily is that it makes it a bit easier to get an armistice. Eg Italy keeps mainland and Sicily (and a couple of adjoining islands) and stays neutral in exchange for all other possessions to be administered by allies with final decision on their fate to be made after the war plus fleet taken out of commission and at least some admin costs paid for eg Libya. Add in agreement that allies will support against a German invasion and it starts looking better than losing even more territory, people, money, credibility. Add in future discussions about joining in as a form of reparations (as OTL) and it looks quite good all round.
In contrast, invading Sicily may be seen as a step too far to allow a rapid negotiated end to hostilities.
If Italy does agree to terms, the eastern Med essentially becomes an allied lake. Unless Vichy gets overthrown (which = North African colonies joining the allies) the axis have no outlet to the western Med except through Vichy which isn't trouble free.
Quite a good position for the allies, less so for the axis.
In contrast Rhodes is Italian, not particularly strongly held, much harder to reinforce than Sicily. While Sicily is a springboard to invade Italy, loss of Rhodes weakens the axis hold on Greece and reduces axis influence on Turkey. If Mussolini is somehow still hanging in there after losing every Italian holding in Africa and being beaten up in Albania, losing Rhodes will surely finish him off.
The thing is, he can't hold Rhodes unless he drives off the RN, which the remains of his navy are unlikely to do. The coastal defences go up to 6" guns, so the RN can outrange them with 8" cruisers and the older battleships. Air defences may be a problem, but carrier airgroups can probably deal with any second string aircraft. I'm not sure if Crete or other land based air is within range of Rhodes but that would be better still for the allies.
Another advantage of Rhodes over Sicily is that it makes it a bit easier to get an armistice. Eg Italy keeps mainland and Sicily (and a couple of adjoining islands) and stays neutral in exchange for all other possessions to be administered by allies with final decision on their fate to be made after the war plus fleet taken out of commission and at least some admin costs paid for eg Libya. Add in agreement that allies will support against a German invasion and it starts looking better than losing even more territory, people, money, credibility. Add in future discussions about joining in as a form of reparations (as OTL) and it looks quite good all round.
In contrast, invading Sicily may be seen as a step too far to allow a rapid negotiated end to hostilities.
If Italy does agree to terms, the eastern Med essentially becomes an allied lake. Unless Vichy gets overthrown (which = North African colonies joining the allies) the axis have no outlet to the western Med except through Vichy which isn't trouble free.
Quite a good position for the allies, less so for the axis.
19 June 1941. Operation Battleaxe. Day 13.
allanpcameron
Donor
19 June 1941. Operation Battleaxe. Day 13.
Much of the daylight hours were spent getting the 7th Armoured Division and 9th Australian Division moved forward towards Beurat. Once more the progress of the British divisions was held up by mines and the occasional Italian attempt to interfere with their advance. The problem of Italian and German aircraft attacking the coast road had the more significant effect on slowing down progress, and causing the most casualties.
It was the Divisional Engineers that took the brunt of providing a safe passage for the men and machines of the two divisions. Once more a number of officers saw that the requirement for mine clearing, and mobile anti-aircraft artillery as being critical to the success of an advance against an enemy who had time to prepare their defences and with control of the air.
As darkness fell, the first British force finally made it into Beurat, little more than a collection of poor dwellings. The 2nd Tower Hamlets Rifles, 7th Support Group’s infantry battalion, deployed off their lorries and moved into the village. A troop of engineers from 4th Field Squadron RE checked for mines and other booby-traps. These were covered by two squadrons of tanks from 7th Hussars of 4th Armoured Brigade. Half of these Valiants were Close Support versions, the HE shells provided by the 3-inch gun had proven much more valuable in these situations than the 2-pdr. To their rear, a battery each of 25-pdrs and 2-pdr anti-tank guns, deployed to support the move through the village.
Brigadier Gott had moved his Support Group HQ as near the front as possible. With the more powerful radio trucks he had, he’d found that communications between the front, provided primarily by the tank radios, and with Brigade and Division HQs was enhanced by doing this. The news that the Italians had excavated one the local Wadis into a tank trap, which was obviously covered by their artillery. As the Support Group approached it, they were quickly engulfed in enemy fire. The battery of 4th RHA 25-pdrs began to seek out the Italian artillery positions, but it was clear that this was going to be a more complex job than the current force could cope with.
Major General Michael Creagh, (OC 7th Armoured Division) when notified that the next line of Italian defences had been identified, ordered 4th Armoured Brigade, the leading element of his Division, to halt for the night, and to prepare to attack at first light. Receiving the same information, Major General Morshead ordered his 24th Brigade to move up to support 4th Armoured Brigade’s attack. This was pre-planned, with the Australians following the Armoured Brigade in the line of march. The problems however began to mount.
From what could be gathered from 7th Support Group, a frontal attack, without much reconnaissance across the Wadi, under the Italian fire, with the likelihood of the enemy aircraft striking at dawn, would be too costly. The ground to the north of the village was unsuitable for vehicles, and problematic for infantry. The option of swinging to the south and around the end of the Wadi was a much more attractive proposition. Unfortunately, the reconnaissance of that area had run into another seemingly extensive mine-field. The lack of RAF support was apparent, and reconnaissance photography of the area had missed some the Italian preparations.
For Lieutenant General O’Connor this was an expected problem. Sending the Australians and 7th Armoured Divisions forward to unseat the Italians was always going to be a gamble. He ordered Creagh and Morshead to concentrate their Divisions. He wanted them to get the majority of the artillery to have a reasonable time to be able to counter the Italians. While 4th Armoured Brigade and two of the Australian Brigades demonstrated in front of the Italian positions, 7th Armoured Brigade and 20th Brigade, with the 9th Divisional Cavalry Regiment, would head into the desert and seek a path around the Italians. Captured Italian maps had some ‘dubious tracks’ marked, at least it was a possibility to find a way to outflank the Italians by aiming for El Gheddahia.
Map from here
Much of the daylight hours were spent getting the 7th Armoured Division and 9th Australian Division moved forward towards Beurat. Once more the progress of the British divisions was held up by mines and the occasional Italian attempt to interfere with their advance. The problem of Italian and German aircraft attacking the coast road had the more significant effect on slowing down progress, and causing the most casualties.
It was the Divisional Engineers that took the brunt of providing a safe passage for the men and machines of the two divisions. Once more a number of officers saw that the requirement for mine clearing, and mobile anti-aircraft artillery as being critical to the success of an advance against an enemy who had time to prepare their defences and with control of the air.
As darkness fell, the first British force finally made it into Beurat, little more than a collection of poor dwellings. The 2nd Tower Hamlets Rifles, 7th Support Group’s infantry battalion, deployed off their lorries and moved into the village. A troop of engineers from 4th Field Squadron RE checked for mines and other booby-traps. These were covered by two squadrons of tanks from 7th Hussars of 4th Armoured Brigade. Half of these Valiants were Close Support versions, the HE shells provided by the 3-inch gun had proven much more valuable in these situations than the 2-pdr. To their rear, a battery each of 25-pdrs and 2-pdr anti-tank guns, deployed to support the move through the village.
Brigadier Gott had moved his Support Group HQ as near the front as possible. With the more powerful radio trucks he had, he’d found that communications between the front, provided primarily by the tank radios, and with Brigade and Division HQs was enhanced by doing this. The news that the Italians had excavated one the local Wadis into a tank trap, which was obviously covered by their artillery. As the Support Group approached it, they were quickly engulfed in enemy fire. The battery of 4th RHA 25-pdrs began to seek out the Italian artillery positions, but it was clear that this was going to be a more complex job than the current force could cope with.
Major General Michael Creagh, (OC 7th Armoured Division) when notified that the next line of Italian defences had been identified, ordered 4th Armoured Brigade, the leading element of his Division, to halt for the night, and to prepare to attack at first light. Receiving the same information, Major General Morshead ordered his 24th Brigade to move up to support 4th Armoured Brigade’s attack. This was pre-planned, with the Australians following the Armoured Brigade in the line of march. The problems however began to mount.
From what could be gathered from 7th Support Group, a frontal attack, without much reconnaissance across the Wadi, under the Italian fire, with the likelihood of the enemy aircraft striking at dawn, would be too costly. The ground to the north of the village was unsuitable for vehicles, and problematic for infantry. The option of swinging to the south and around the end of the Wadi was a much more attractive proposition. Unfortunately, the reconnaissance of that area had run into another seemingly extensive mine-field. The lack of RAF support was apparent, and reconnaissance photography of the area had missed some the Italian preparations.
For Lieutenant General O’Connor this was an expected problem. Sending the Australians and 7th Armoured Divisions forward to unseat the Italians was always going to be a gamble. He ordered Creagh and Morshead to concentrate their Divisions. He wanted them to get the majority of the artillery to have a reasonable time to be able to counter the Italians. While 4th Armoured Brigade and two of the Australian Brigades demonstrated in front of the Italian positions, 7th Armoured Brigade and 20th Brigade, with the 9th Divisional Cavalry Regiment, would head into the desert and seek a path around the Italians. Captured Italian maps had some ‘dubious tracks’ marked, at least it was a possibility to find a way to outflank the Italians by aiming for El Gheddahia.
Map from here
It's an ambitious move, but a smart one. Buerat is a good defensive position, so taking it now, while it's lightly defended will prevent the Axis from being able to fortify it later.