And which Japanese field guns had a decent AP round? The common ones seem to have little penetration ( <30mm with an APHE round ) unless using rounds described variously as HEAT or Hollow Charge.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
The main job of artillery is to engage the enemy positions in attack or the enemy's infantry in defence. Also to be available to be used in counter battery fire as needed.
If they are in position to be used as AT guns they are not going to be doing either of these tasks, at least not efficiently.
Especially, if like the Japanese in SEA, they don't have enough artillery to start with.
Yes artillery can engage tanks in the direct fire role but this is usually something done as a last resort to prevent the guns being overrun.
The 47mm could manage 55mm at 100m, enough to pierce the rear of the Matilda at point blank.
At 30°. At 250m it could penetrate 70mm vertical, and 3" at 250 yards. So close range against the front, decent range against sides once you go at better angles than 30° from the front.
The Type 90 75mm field gun could penetrate that at nearly 1000m with the APHE developped in 1941. So towed options existed.
marathag
Banned
The job of any Red-Leg is to shoot projectiles at the enemy, exact target to be decided by HQ.
Since there are many types of enemy targets, different shells are needed, or even characteristics of the gun itself.
Enter the multi-purpose gun, like the German 88mm or Italian and US 90mm
Time fuse for AAA
HE, that can be contact or time fused
AP, direct fire against armored targets, be they AFVs or Concrete bunkers
Type 90 was mainly issued to units in China until the later years of the war. Initial forces in Malaya would have had the Type 38, which had about 600ft/s less punch ( 1600 vs 2200 ).
I have too much respect for my boots, and for my axles, too, for that matter!
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Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Can the Japanese having encountered the Matilda tank, and numerous other superior Soviet tanks, develop a tank that could match or exceed their opponent’s vehicles, yes. However they face a number of serious issues in doing so, that are going to be hard to overcome. Unlike Britain, the Soviet Union and in future the Americans, they do not have the industrial depth and resources to do so without seriously impacting their other war production. The major user of advanced industrial technology the navy, is going to be loth to see Japans limited resources diverted to tank production. And that is not taking into account the needs of the two airforces, who will be demanding that they have first call on the various engine manufacturing facilities. Japan at this time is in comparison to the other major industrial powers, America, the British Empire, Germany and the Soviet Union, a light weight, basically an also ran. People forget that IOTL, Britain was the nation that produced the largest number of a single type of armoured vehicle, 113,000 bren gun carriers, double the number of M3 half tracks produced by the Americans. The scale of production that the British Empire and the Americans were capable of is truly staggering, and it’s not just the production. Along with this cornucopia of stuff, was the ability to transport it to every corner of the world, and supply it with all the supplies it needed to keep running.
The Japanese even when they produce a better tank then those they have available at this time. Will then have the problem of transporting it to where it’s needed, and supplying it with all the items needed to keep it running and in action. Out side of Manchuria, the local infrastructure is not there to allow you to use a large heavy tank, the few bridges available will be able to support a vehicle over 5tons all up weight. There are only a very few docks and harbours that have cranes, that can lift a 5ton load, so unless your ship has its own heavy lift crane, you are stuffed. Both the British and the Americans didn’t have this problem, no dock that can accommodate your requirements, use LST’s until you can build the dock you need. The local roads and bridges can not take the heavy load, build roads and bridges that can. In Burma, which was at the bottom of the resources list, because of the shortage of aggregate, the British flew in local brick makers, to produce bricks to be turned into aggregate. The British Bailey bridge could be quickly assembled and even in its most basic form, take a load of 30tons, and was capable of being upgraded to handle a 100ton load. Numerous Bailey Bridges were built during the Burma campaign, including what was at the time the longest Bailey, and a very large Bailey suspension bridge. The ability of both the Americans and the British, not only to out produce the Japanese, but to supply and support their forces in the field was astounding. And this remember in what was a secondary campaign for both nations, while they fought and even bigger war against the Germans in Europe.
So can the Japanese design and produce a tank to match or exceed the British Matilda, yes. Can the Japanese produce such a tank in large enough numbers, transport them to where they are required, and support and supply them, no. A nation that had one of its principal reasons for going to war its lack of resources, especially oil, is going to be foolish to develop a resource hungry tank, that at best will be a minor irritant to the British and Americans. It must always be remembered that off the three major axis powers, only one Germany was a minor threat to Britain, the aquatic mammal whose name shall not be mentioned on the forum, was only a deluded fantasy. And none of them was a threat to the United States of America, despite various ill formed fantasies. So a Japanese heavy tank will be a minor inconvenience for the allies, or a severe resource drain for the Japanese. And by the time that the Japanese produce such a tank, the British if not the Americans, will have a better tank in their respective armouries.
The Japanese even when they produce a better tank then those they have available at this time. Will then have the problem of transporting it to where it’s needed, and supplying it with all the items needed to keep it running and in action. Out side of Manchuria, the local infrastructure is not there to allow you to use a large heavy tank, the few bridges available will be able to support a vehicle over 5tons all up weight. There are only a very few docks and harbours that have cranes, that can lift a 5ton load, so unless your ship has its own heavy lift crane, you are stuffed. Both the British and the Americans didn’t have this problem, no dock that can accommodate your requirements, use LST’s until you can build the dock you need. The local roads and bridges can not take the heavy load, build roads and bridges that can. In Burma, which was at the bottom of the resources list, because of the shortage of aggregate, the British flew in local brick makers, to produce bricks to be turned into aggregate. The British Bailey bridge could be quickly assembled and even in its most basic form, take a load of 30tons, and was capable of being upgraded to handle a 100ton load. Numerous Bailey Bridges were built during the Burma campaign, including what was at the time the longest Bailey, and a very large Bailey suspension bridge. The ability of both the Americans and the British, not only to out produce the Japanese, but to supply and support their forces in the field was astounding. And this remember in what was a secondary campaign for both nations, while they fought and even bigger war against the Germans in Europe.
So can the Japanese design and produce a tank to match or exceed the British Matilda, yes. Can the Japanese produce such a tank in large enough numbers, transport them to where they are required, and support and supply them, no. A nation that had one of its principal reasons for going to war its lack of resources, especially oil, is going to be foolish to develop a resource hungry tank, that at best will be a minor irritant to the British and Americans. It must always be remembered that off the three major axis powers, only one Germany was a minor threat to Britain, the aquatic mammal whose name shall not be mentioned on the forum, was only a deluded fantasy. And none of them was a threat to the United States of America, despite various ill formed fantasies. So a Japanese heavy tank will be a minor inconvenience for the allies, or a severe resource drain for the Japanese. And by the time that the Japanese produce such a tank, the British if not the Americans, will have a better tank in their respective armouries.
A brief discussion of food available, or not as the case may be, in the OTL Kokoda Campaign as an indication of the lack of Japanese logistics, briefly diverting into a slightly longer debate on the merits of various Commonwealth yeast & beef spreads, doesn't even come close to the Glory that was the supplemental/secondary food based thread contained within The Whale Has Wings.
Yet.
As for improved Japanese armour on land, they face the same quandary as Nazi Germany.
1) They can build a shit load of tanks or a large navy. They do not have the steel to do both.
2) They need fuel and a lot of it.
Imperial Germany could build a fleet because tanks did not exist and there was no need for them. By 1919, it was obvious that a land power needed tank/panzer armies more than a battle fleet. Nazi Germany tried to build both and failed, compromising during the war to build u-boats & panzers.
Imperial Japan was an island nation with a proud tradition of land combat, still coming to terms with the realisation that it needed a powerful navy to remain relevant and independent in the modern world. This had been driven home by the forced opening of their borders by the US Navy, the global domination of the world's oceans by the Royal Navy, and cemented by the prestige gained when the IJN crushed the Imperial Russian Navy during the Russo-Japanese War. This, incidentally, strengthened the rivalry between the IJA & IJN. While Japan was an early adopter of tanks, they also had to weigh the realities of being an island nation with limited resources. Tank formations with their armies in China & Korea would be useless if a hostile fleet were to cut the Home Islands off from the Asian mainland or its other island possessions. Ergo, the IJN gets the majority of Japanese steel production & fuel in order to keep the SLOCs open.
Nazi Germany building more Bismarks and Graf Zepplins = less u-boats & panzers = shorter war.
Imperial Japan building more & better tanks = smaller fleet = shorter war.
Regarding Japanese Guns capability
At Buna-Gona the 25mm AAA cannon where very capable of knocking out the M3 Stuarts and were the only weapons that they had (that had survived) that could when the Stuarts arrived have any chance of engaging them
In the end the Aussies were obliged to use a 25 pounder to 'snipe' this weapon and that took a couple of days (the Aussie gunners were also using it to pick off individuals they were so close)
So it seriously slowed down the reduction of the Japanese bunker as the Aussies only had a small number of tanks and had to husband them after losing a troop of them
At Buna-Gona the 25mm AAA cannon where very capable of knocking out the M3 Stuarts and were the only weapons that they had (that had survived) that could when the Stuarts arrived have any chance of engaging them
In the end the Aussies were obliged to use a 25 pounder to 'snipe' this weapon and that took a couple of days (the Aussie gunners were also using it to pick off individuals they were so close)
So it seriously slowed down the reduction of the Japanese bunker as the Aussies only had a small number of tanks and had to husband them after losing a troop of them
With an early victory in Africa, and a better showing in Malaya, would the British have a greater say in appointing supreme commanders to the various theaters, with the arcadia conference happening in the next few days
marathag
Banned
The largest items that the Japanese moved by sea, were locomotives from Japan, to the occupied territories like Malaya and Burma
Like these C58 made by Kawasaki
That's around 100 tons.
So could the Japanese make thousands of King Tigers?
No.
But they could move something that heavy
That only works as long as they get the oil. If Burma and Sumatra do not fall and the subs from Singapore do a job on the tankers from Borneo. Then they are going to have to focus on the army to get Singapore. Bufflerflies work for both sides. It could be said that the reason IJN anti sub forces were so bad was how long the USN took to fix their torpedos and the othe allied navies had been removed from the area. So the threat did not show up till late 43 onwards by which time there were already facing too many issues and reasoure blocks. If the RN and dutch are problem from the start and continue to be that change things. And at a time when the IJN is not having a carrier shortage.
Will the US army be joining in this island hopping campigan?
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
I am in complete agreement with you that the Japanese could move heavy objects, however I would suggest that in the case of the steam locomotives, they used the existing facilities in Singapore and Rangoon. Both of which would have been equipped with heavy canes by the British, in support of their imperial ambitions. And in the end you will have to supply and support your tank, which unless it has been built to fit inside the local railway loading gauge, is only going to be able to more around on the local roads. Which in the nineteen fourties’, were outside of a major town, in the majority, mud tracks through the countryside.The largest items that the Japanese moved by sea, were locomotives from Japan, to the occupied territories like Malaya and Burma
Like these C58 made by Kawasaki
That's around 100 tons.
So could the Japanese make thousands of King Tigers?
No.
But they could move something that heavy
RR.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
Original Timeline ABDA did have a British supreme commander, I think - Wavell.
Although I'm not sure if that was a British idea or someone else's. It might have been a case of someone else thinking: 'It looks like we're all up the creek without a paddle, so put a British general in charge so the British get the blame for everything and anything going wrong.'
13 December 1941. Alor Star, Malaya.
allanpcameron
Donor
13 December 1941. Alor Star, Malaya.
The Blenheims of 62 Squadron, or at least the surviving aircraft, had been withdrawn south, and now the airfield had become a battleground. Thick smoke hampered both sides as the airfield’s fuel and ammunition supplies burned. Lt Col Harry Tyrell (CO 1st Battalion Bahawalpur Infantry (Indian States Forces)) had the pe-war job of protecting the airfield. Now his men were part of 15th Indian Brigade’s defence of the area. The Bahawalpur Infantry, mostly Punjabi Moslems, had never seen tanks before the arrival of the Matilda II which had been sent to defend the airfield along with them. As was common among the Royal Tank Regiment, the tank, from A Squadron, had its ‘name’ stencilled on its side. When naming it, they had used a common term used by British troops to mean ‘can’t be bothered’: ‘Allahkaffik’. To the Punjabi’s, after some discussion, agreed that it was a misspelling of ‘Allah Kiyfik’, ‘God is Sufficient’. This was seen by the men of the Bahawalpur Battalion as a great portent of victory.
Once Sergeant John Runcie, the tank commander, got used to the almost reverential way his tank and his crew were treated by the Bahawalpurs, he began to enjoy it. The first few days he’s had the sepoys climbing all over the tank like children, and the glee they showed when they were sitting on the tank when it moved was unbelievable. The Company that had been chosen to work with the tank as the counter-attack force, walked with straighter backs and preened themselves when they came on duty, they felt every bit as superior as if they were the Nawab’s own bodyguard.
Naik Muhammed Fazil had made himself Runcie’s personal assistant, the British sergeant wanted for almost nothing, except to be left alone. The Captain of A Company, Khan Mir Khan did everything that was asked of him. He trained his men diligently to know the best way to cooperate with the tank. The men were surprised that it was their job to protect the tank, everybody assumed it was the tank’s job to protect them. Fazil and his squad made themselves ‘the last line of defence’: a couple of black eyes and swollen lips among other squads having won them that role.
Now that the battle was raging, Runcie and Khan’s Company had been held back in reserve, ready to plug any gaps in the line. Brigadier Garrett (CO 15th Indian Brigade) had 2nd Bn 9th Jat Regiment working alongside the Bahawalpurs at the airfield, while 1st Bn Leicestershire Regiment and 1st Bn 14th Punjab Regiment were holding closer to the coast. As well as Allahkaffik, two other Matilda IIs were part of the defensive posture of the Brigade. The Japanese had already tried a few times to attack, and had run up against an accurate barrage from the 25-pdrs of 137th (2nd West Lancashire) Field Regiment RA, supporting the defence of the airfield.
The problems started when there was break in the monsoon rains, and some Japanese planes arrived overhead. The British artillery fire ceased, either the guns were being moved, or the men were keeping their heads down. The increase in mortar and machine gun fire from the Japanese signalled that another attack was underway. The Japanese had managed to find where the Jats and the Bahawalpurs positions joined and were striking there with a large force, including some tanks.
Allahkaffik was based near the Regiment’s HQ, and a runner came to Captain Khan to order a counterattack at the point where the Japanese were breaking through. Sergeant Runcie and his crew were already aboard the tank, ready for just such a moment. The driver, Jock Anderson, got the tank moving, with Fazil and his squad were on the engine hatches. Fazil himself was kneeling behind the turret, with a Vickers–Berthier (VB) LMG pointing forward. Runcie, in the turret hatch, had warned him plenty of times not to fire the gun when his head was beside it, it would deafen him.
Khan’s Company were spread out, sweeping ahead and to the side of the tank, as they had practised time and time again. The gunner and loader, Nigel Coote and Bert Leitch, were busy checking and double checking the guns and ammo loads. Runcie had always warned Fazil that when they went into action, the tank would become a bullet magnet, and staying on the tank was likely to be deadly. Fazil had just shrugged, “Allah Kiyfik!” As they drew near the site of the breakthrough, the reality of the tank drawing fire from just about every Japanese soldier hit home. Two of his squad were knocked off the tank, and when Runcie had ducked down and pulled the hatch shut, Fazil opened up with the VB.
Coote very quickly identified a Japanese tank and engaged it with the 2-pdr, firing three shots in quick succession, moving to the co-axial Besa when the Japanese tank was burning. The wave of just over 100 men of Khan’s Company, along with Allahkaffik’s guns pushed the Japanese back. Once the breach was sealed, and the Jats and Bahawalpurs were able to tie their positions together again, Runcie ordered his driver to reverse, and shouted to Captain Khan that it was time to withdraw.
The Japanese aircraft must have left, because artillery shells began to fall again on the Japanese positions. Only eighty men from Khan’s Company withdrew back to their starting position, and of them many had suffered some kind of wound, the fighting had become hand to hand at one point. Coote and Leitch ran off with two of Fazil’s squad to bring more ammunition into the tank, while Jock Anderson refilled the fuel tank. They’d only travelled about a mile, but Anderson maintained that he never knew when they’d be able to refuel, and even a pint of diesel could make all the difference. Fazil had lost three of his squad and his helmet was dented from a Japanese bullet, giving him a very sore head. The mess tin of hot sweet tea was pressed into Runcie’s hand, Fazil had obviously somebody around the HQ ready for just this moment.
Firing was dying down along the front line. The Japanese seemed to have pulled back. Men raced forward to the fighting men with more ammunition, water, and with stretchers to bring back the wounded. That was when the Japanese aircraft reappeared. There were at least twelve aircraft, and they seemed to wheel about overhead, then dive and fire long bursts. Many Indian troops tried bringing their rifles and VBs to bear, but the aircraft pulled away unharmed. One aircraft concentrated on the area around the Regimental HQ, and having dropped its four bombs, turned round again to take another strafing run. The aircraft had two machine-guns firing through the propeller and was flying directly towards Allahkaffik, Fazil was standing on the back of the tank with his VB at his shoulder attempting to return fire.
The Japanese machine gun bullets rang loudly over the tank though without any real threat to the armour, even on the thinner top armour. Once it had passed Runcie, who’d automatically closed the turret hatch opened it again, fearing that he’d find Fazil dead. The naik was standing completely unscathed, laughing and pointing as the Japanese plane flew off trailing smoke. “Allah Kiyfik! Allah Kiyfik!” Fazil kept repeating, and Runcie could do nothing else, but join him. Thinking it meant ‘Can’t be bothered’ when he’d chosen the name, now he had to agree, ‘God is Sufficient.’
The Blenheims of 62 Squadron, or at least the surviving aircraft, had been withdrawn south, and now the airfield had become a battleground. Thick smoke hampered both sides as the airfield’s fuel and ammunition supplies burned. Lt Col Harry Tyrell (CO 1st Battalion Bahawalpur Infantry (Indian States Forces)) had the pe-war job of protecting the airfield. Now his men were part of 15th Indian Brigade’s defence of the area. The Bahawalpur Infantry, mostly Punjabi Moslems, had never seen tanks before the arrival of the Matilda II which had been sent to defend the airfield along with them. As was common among the Royal Tank Regiment, the tank, from A Squadron, had its ‘name’ stencilled on its side. When naming it, they had used a common term used by British troops to mean ‘can’t be bothered’: ‘Allahkaffik’. To the Punjabi’s, after some discussion, agreed that it was a misspelling of ‘Allah Kiyfik’, ‘God is Sufficient’. This was seen by the men of the Bahawalpur Battalion as a great portent of victory.
Once Sergeant John Runcie, the tank commander, got used to the almost reverential way his tank and his crew were treated by the Bahawalpurs, he began to enjoy it. The first few days he’s had the sepoys climbing all over the tank like children, and the glee they showed when they were sitting on the tank when it moved was unbelievable. The Company that had been chosen to work with the tank as the counter-attack force, walked with straighter backs and preened themselves when they came on duty, they felt every bit as superior as if they were the Nawab’s own bodyguard.
Naik Muhammed Fazil had made himself Runcie’s personal assistant, the British sergeant wanted for almost nothing, except to be left alone. The Captain of A Company, Khan Mir Khan did everything that was asked of him. He trained his men diligently to know the best way to cooperate with the tank. The men were surprised that it was their job to protect the tank, everybody assumed it was the tank’s job to protect them. Fazil and his squad made themselves ‘the last line of defence’: a couple of black eyes and swollen lips among other squads having won them that role.
Now that the battle was raging, Runcie and Khan’s Company had been held back in reserve, ready to plug any gaps in the line. Brigadier Garrett (CO 15th Indian Brigade) had 2nd Bn 9th Jat Regiment working alongside the Bahawalpurs at the airfield, while 1st Bn Leicestershire Regiment and 1st Bn 14th Punjab Regiment were holding closer to the coast. As well as Allahkaffik, two other Matilda IIs were part of the defensive posture of the Brigade. The Japanese had already tried a few times to attack, and had run up against an accurate barrage from the 25-pdrs of 137th (2nd West Lancashire) Field Regiment RA, supporting the defence of the airfield.
The problems started when there was break in the monsoon rains, and some Japanese planes arrived overhead. The British artillery fire ceased, either the guns were being moved, or the men were keeping their heads down. The increase in mortar and machine gun fire from the Japanese signalled that another attack was underway. The Japanese had managed to find where the Jats and the Bahawalpurs positions joined and were striking there with a large force, including some tanks.
Allahkaffik was based near the Regiment’s HQ, and a runner came to Captain Khan to order a counterattack at the point where the Japanese were breaking through. Sergeant Runcie and his crew were already aboard the tank, ready for just such a moment. The driver, Jock Anderson, got the tank moving, with Fazil and his squad were on the engine hatches. Fazil himself was kneeling behind the turret, with a Vickers–Berthier (VB) LMG pointing forward. Runcie, in the turret hatch, had warned him plenty of times not to fire the gun when his head was beside it, it would deafen him.
Khan’s Company were spread out, sweeping ahead and to the side of the tank, as they had practised time and time again. The gunner and loader, Nigel Coote and Bert Leitch, were busy checking and double checking the guns and ammo loads. Runcie had always warned Fazil that when they went into action, the tank would become a bullet magnet, and staying on the tank was likely to be deadly. Fazil had just shrugged, “Allah Kiyfik!” As they drew near the site of the breakthrough, the reality of the tank drawing fire from just about every Japanese soldier hit home. Two of his squad were knocked off the tank, and when Runcie had ducked down and pulled the hatch shut, Fazil opened up with the VB.
Coote very quickly identified a Japanese tank and engaged it with the 2-pdr, firing three shots in quick succession, moving to the co-axial Besa when the Japanese tank was burning. The wave of just over 100 men of Khan’s Company, along with Allahkaffik’s guns pushed the Japanese back. Once the breach was sealed, and the Jats and Bahawalpurs were able to tie their positions together again, Runcie ordered his driver to reverse, and shouted to Captain Khan that it was time to withdraw.
The Japanese aircraft must have left, because artillery shells began to fall again on the Japanese positions. Only eighty men from Khan’s Company withdrew back to their starting position, and of them many had suffered some kind of wound, the fighting had become hand to hand at one point. Coote and Leitch ran off with two of Fazil’s squad to bring more ammunition into the tank, while Jock Anderson refilled the fuel tank. They’d only travelled about a mile, but Anderson maintained that he never knew when they’d be able to refuel, and even a pint of diesel could make all the difference. Fazil had lost three of his squad and his helmet was dented from a Japanese bullet, giving him a very sore head. The mess tin of hot sweet tea was pressed into Runcie’s hand, Fazil had obviously somebody around the HQ ready for just this moment.
Firing was dying down along the front line. The Japanese seemed to have pulled back. Men raced forward to the fighting men with more ammunition, water, and with stretchers to bring back the wounded. That was when the Japanese aircraft reappeared. There were at least twelve aircraft, and they seemed to wheel about overhead, then dive and fire long bursts. Many Indian troops tried bringing their rifles and VBs to bear, but the aircraft pulled away unharmed. One aircraft concentrated on the area around the Regimental HQ, and having dropped its four bombs, turned round again to take another strafing run. The aircraft had two machine-guns firing through the propeller and was flying directly towards Allahkaffik, Fazil was standing on the back of the tank with his VB at his shoulder attempting to return fire.
The Japanese machine gun bullets rang loudly over the tank though without any real threat to the armour, even on the thinner top armour. Once it had passed Runcie, who’d automatically closed the turret hatch opened it again, fearing that he’d find Fazil dead. The naik was standing completely unscathed, laughing and pointing as the Japanese plane flew off trailing smoke. “Allah Kiyfik! Allah Kiyfik!” Fazil kept repeating, and Runcie could do nothing else, but join him. Thinking it meant ‘Can’t be bothered’ when he’d chosen the name, now he had to agree, ‘God is Sufficient.’
Once again, the British/Indian forces in Malaya TTL seem to be much better organised than OTL. Even without the tanks, having reserves in position to counterattack breakthroughs or flanking movements (and effective communications so the counterattacks are delivered in the right places at the right time) takes a lot of the sting out of the standard Japanese offensive tactics, and having superior tanks is jam on it. This is the mission the Matilda II was designed for - eliminating enemy armour that is threatening the advancing infantry.
Incidentally, the British Army slang is almost certainly a corruption of "Allah Kiyfik" - or some similar phrase in a North Indian language.
Incidentally, the British Army slang is almost certainly a corruption of "Allah Kiyfik" - or some similar phrase in a North Indian language.
allanpcameron
Donor
Just to share where this came from. The photo and discussion came from https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/arvs-in-british-units-in-normandy-t327846-s20.html
This comes from https://cracdeschevaliers.blogspot.com/2010/07/cromwell-squadron-hq.html