SF: Firefly

[Lord Insane]

I think the Alliance is probably a quite good parliamentary democracy, altough with a too strong Intelligence Service... In the Core Worlds, that is. However, for various reasons, it isn't that outside that area.
Kind of how it would have looked if the governors of US Territories (back when they had more Territories, and they were more populated) had been more corrupt and had more power.
Of course, this is probably completely off-mark...

 

[Faeelin]

Instead, we're treated to an endless array of tyrannical scum. I don't think the governors of U.S. border states are like that.

No, but this is set in a society analogous to the Old West, remember?

How many times do we see them dealing with Alliance officials outside of the military?

 

[Faeelin]

Well, first of all Tam is a Chinese name, one of my professors was named Tam, and I'd find it hard to they would be "accidentally" given a Chinese name, though I'll admit that for the sake of the audience I wish they'd chosen a name like Cho or Wu that was more noticably Chinese.

You know, in a way this proves me point.

"Look, there are Chinese! We had some white people with Chinese names on the show."

Flocc linked to an article that IMHO pretty clearly debunked that premise and which argued that Heinlein's comments were not backed up by what was in the book itself.

Link? The book pretty clearly stated it didn't have to be military service.

 

[Timmy811]

The thing is, we know nothing of this "Parliament" in Serenity (it isn't mentioned at all in the series). Perhaps it's little more than a discussion forum. After all, the Soviets, Japanese Empire, and Civil War US also had elected assemblies...

The US during the Civil War hardly deserves to be on this list since both the U.S. and Confederate congress were powerful legislative bodies.

 

[Timmy811]

It's supposed to be gray. Guess I'm more tired than I figured...

My point was, the heroes in SW are good, not minor criminals and shady figures. In other words, people you can sympathise with.

Oh really? I would agree that both Han Solo and Lando aren't minor criminals, they were major criminals prior to joining the Rebel alliance.

 

[Faeelin]

If we're playing the "the author's intent doesn't matter if it's not obvious in the show card", then it's ther's no reference to Independent terorirsm or guerillas five years after the end of the war.

Ergo the majority of the Independent worlds are either okay with Unification or resigned to it because the Alliance isn't too bad.

 

[Admiral Canaris]

Eh.... I sympathized with the characters of Firefly much more than those of Star Wars. For one, there actually are people like the characters in the former. Star Wars? You may not have noticed but - pure good-evil dichotomies? - they don't exist. I love the series (or the original half of it, anyway), but it's not realism. It's allegory. I prefer stories I can believe in. Still and all, it's understandable that you don't.

Edit: Just got the DVDs. Hadn't seen the pilot. Fantastic.

I do prefer stories I can believe in. Yet I don't see how you can say people like Luke or Han in the films don't exist IRL. The bad guys are stereotypised and storytellinglike, yes, but then there aren't many nuances to Firefly's villains either...

Of course it's not realism. If it had been, all wars would be waged by computers and there'd be no FTL...

Speaking of which, I doubt any RL skipper would keep a character like Jayne around...

 

[MrP]

You know, in a way this proves me point.

"Look, there are Chinese! We had some white people with Chinese names on the show."



Link? The book pretty clearly stated it didn't have to be military service.

IIRC, it was a numerical analysis or summat. But I haven't read the book, and didn't click on the link, so I'm just going by a hazy memory of the thread.

The low numbers of Chinese doesn't mean that there isn't a substantial Chinese population elsewhere. Though I agree that it is rather amusing that they never turn up onscreen.

 

[Jasen777]

Speaking of which, I doubt any RL skipper would keep a character like Jayne around...

But he's the hero of Canton! He gave the man what for.

 

[Admiral Canaris]

Faeelin:

Perhpas, but this is true of plenty of people they run into; after all, there's an episode where Rivers is viewed as a witch. And there's an episode where the Alliance is guarding a shipment of medical supplies.

Seriously. It's a series bout smugglers on the edge of civilization. It wouldn't be very good if you ran into PR sensitive semi-annually elected popular candidates.

If someone with psionic powers turned up, what'd you think? More importantly, what'd your great-great-grandfather think? This is a small, backwards society on an isolated planet. That's not evil, they're just simple people. Then it's much worse that they kidnap people...

And the guarding shows what... that they don't want the supplies stolen?

If the Alliance was good, they should run into some decent officials at some point, no matter how far out in the wilderness they are. There's a larger proportion of good Imperials in SW... and LFL really tries to make the Empire the ultimate bad guys...

 

[Admiral Matt]

For example, I remember a long arguement over Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers in which people argued over whether or not Heinlein's book said you needed to serve in the military to become a citizen. Those against this said no, it was meant to be national service, and pointed to some of Heinlein's own comments on the book in which he claimed that yes, in his book you could do a two year non-military national hitch to become a citizen.

Flocc linked to an article that IMHO pretty clearly debunked that premise and which argued that Heinlein's comments were not backed up by what was in the book itself.

Wrong.

Or to put it differently: Ignore everything Heinlein said on the subject. The book itself specifically says that a few years extremely unpleasant service outside the military can get you citizenship. It is not hidden. It is toward the beginning.

 

[Faeelin]

Faeelin:
If someone with psionic powers turned up, what'd you think? More importantly, what'd your great-great-grandfather think? This is a small, backwards society on an isolated planet. That's not evil, they're just simple people. Then it's much worse that they kidnap people...

I think the American government would send secret agents with the power to use any means necessary after her. Much like the Alliance.

And the guarding shows what... that they don't want the supplies stolen?

Medical supplies for a sick village.

If the Alliance was good, they should run into some decent officials at some point, no matter how far out in the wilderness they are. There's a larger proportion of good Imperials in SW... and LFL really tries to make the Empire the ultimate bad guys...

How many Alliance officers do they actually run into?

 

[Admiral Matt]

I do prefer stories I can believe in. Yet I don't see how you can say people like Luke or Han in the films don't exist IRL. The bad guys are stereotypised and storytellinglike, yes, but then there aren't many nuances to Firefly's villains either...

Of course it's not realism. If it had been, all wars would be waged by computers and there'd be no FTL...

Speaking of which, I doubt any RL skipper would keep a character like Jayne around...

Oh, I believe those two as we first meet them. But they're the only two main "disreputable" characters, and they both end up pure of heart and devoted to the rebel cause. Criminals end up in rebellions all the time, but they usually don't forsake material gain, expose themselves to mortal danger, etc. All that without even using their positions to accumulate personal power. I like them better for it, but it's not the sort of thing that turns up much, historically speaking.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I think the American government would send secret agents with the power to use any means necessary after her. Much like the Alliance.

Given the US gov't couldn't even get away with far less during the Cold War without catching political hell (the Church Committee, for example, or Iran-Contra), I don't think any U.S. President would be foolish enough to send out hencmen with the ability to do ANYTHING, particularly to US citizens. Look at all the trouble the Jose Padilla case caused and he was ultimately convicted of a crime by a jury of his peers.

(plus there'd be major inter-agency problems--how do you know some police officer in Peoria isn't going to mistake said agent for a kidnapper or terrorist and shoot him? It would be hilarious if the Operative was undone, not by Mal or any of the heroes, but some redneck cop who thinks the guy is a psycho killer.)

At least inside US borders. OUTSIDE US borders, a lot can be gotten away with in the name of fighting terrorism.

This gets into the matter of separation of powers in the Alliance. If the Alliance is a unitary state, orders to all local police to cooperate with the Operative could go out. If it's a federal system like the US, you'd have to hash it out with state, local, etc, and that's far more doable.

And if the Feds are capable of dispatching agents with unlimited power, how come Michael Moore and other gadflies are still alive? The temptation to use them to settle scores with domestic political opponents would likely be overwhelming.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Oh really? I would agree that both Han Solo and Lando aren't minor criminals, they were major criminals prior to joining the Rebel alliance.

MAJOR criminals? IIRC Solo was a smuggler. That's really about it.

Calrissian might be a different matter--there's a distinct crime-lord feel to that guy.

 

[Timmy811]

MAJOR criminals? IIRC Solo was a smuggler. That's really about it.

Calrissian might be a different matter--there's a distinct crime-lord feel to that guy.

Solo had extensive criminal contacts with Jabba the Hut; a crime lord that ruled entire planets. Smugglers smuggle valuable illegal goods. Drugs, people, weapons, etc.

 

[Faeelin]

Given the US gov't couldn't even get away with far less during the Cold War without catching political hell (the Church Committee, for example, or Iran-Contra), I don't think any U.S. President would be foolish enough to send out hencmen with the ability to do ANYTHING, particularly to US citizens.

The US government has tried to hold people indefinitely without a trial; it'snot hard to imagine them doing so in a situation where the stakes were far greater.

Moreover, it's not clear that this was ordered by the government but rather one faction. I find this eminently plausible.

 

[Michael]

MAJOR criminals? IIRC Solo was a smuggler. That's really about it.

Calrissian might be a different matter--there's a distinct crime-lord feel to that guy.

Solo murdered soldiers to get at the truth serum they were transporting so he could put it in the hands of complete scum.

Also, Firefly was crap, nothing was ever really explained in show, it deserved it's death due to it relying solely on the bankability of the name behind it, and it was formulaic to the extreme. It also suffered when whedon demonstrated his inability to write anything without a superpowered female.

 

[Looseheadprop]

I just loves it because in its short run it created so many awesome one liners

'...Ill be in my bunk..'

'...you know what the chain of command is, its the chain i got git and beat you with till you know whos in ruttin command here'

'...pain is scarey...'

'...im going to a special hell...'

'Were i unwed i would take you in a manly fashion'

'...curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!'

 

[Admiral Canaris]

I think the American government would send secret agents with the power to use any means necessary after her. Much like the Alliance.

Would they kill everyone of their own men who even saw her? And would they perform vivisections on her in the first place?

Medical supplies for a sick village.

Wasn't it the Nazis who instituted the world's first universal (tax-paid) health care system?

How many Alliance officers do they actually run into?

There I'll have to get back to you, it was a while since I saw the series.