That I don’t know for certain, though for the reasons you outline, and hin voting against the deceleration of war against Germany in 1917 and subsequent primary defeat in 1918, I would imagine they did not see eye to eye
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
In the 1860s, there would have been no way for Charlotte to find out what was happening in New Orleans, but iOTL the first commercial radio was in 1920. And according to Wikipedia, the time signals could be heard over wide areas (the one in the Eiffel Tower could be heard over most of Europe) before 1910 (I think). A transmitter in Vicksburg could *possibly* be heard in Charlotte. I'm not sure of the technology here or if anything iOTL is likely to speed up or impede that. (And that of course assumes that there are no submarine cables iTTL running from Wilmington to Havana and Havana to New Orleans)
New Orleans is likely to have the second best communications with Europe of anywhere in the Confederacy as well as a lot of foreign trade and even (probably) Foreign Consulates. I'm not sure that helps, but the French Ambassador *might* have a way to contact the French Consul General in New Orleans that I haven't thought of yet...
Heck, the French Consul General could *walk/drive* through the US lines in Georgia untouched.
And if neither of those work, any chance of capturing a US major city newspaper?
New Orleans is likely to have the second best communications with Europe of anywhere in the Confederacy as well as a lot of foreign trade and even (probably) Foreign Consulates. I'm not sure that helps, but the French Ambassador *might* have a way to contact the French Consul General in New Orleans that I haven't thought of yet...
Heck, the French Consul General could *walk/drive* through the US lines in Georgia untouched.
And if neither of those work, any chance of capturing a US major city newspaper?
@KingSweden24
Shelby Foote is born on the 17th November 1916 in Mississippi.
"Im curious if you'd use him, given his belief in the Great Man Theory of NB Forrest, Robert E Lee and the gallant Southern Gentlemen chivalry....
Shelby Foote is born on the 17th November 1916 in Mississippi.
"Im curious if you'd use him, given his belief in the Great Man Theory of NB Forrest, Robert E Lee and the gallant Southern Gentlemen chivalry....
Well, we always suspected the Vardaman administration wouldn't (and couldn't) survive the end of the war. What's left to be determined now, of course, is: does Vardaman get arrested by the army and put on trial, or does he accidently take a stray bullet while poking his head out the window to tell everyone to "shut up,, I'm trying to win the war in here!" The latter would certainly draw comparisons to the death of a certain Chilean president.
Carolina Crisis (Part II)
"...city of no more than fifty thousand souls at the census of 1910; by 1916, with the temporary capital moved there, estimates have suggested that it was a city of as many as two hundred thousand, primarily refugees, bureaucrats, and soldiers. Three or four families shared single rooms in houses, while the periphery of Charlotte was a maze of army tents and squatters camps; the fall of 1916 had already seen lethal cholera and typhoid outbreaks rip through the city's emaciated, hungry and desperate population. On the morning of the 8th, rumors were swirling that Fayetteville was invested by Yankees and that the army that had just sacked Columbia was marching towards the Catawba River; it was broadly assumed that the city would, within days if not perhaps hours, be attacked for the first time by long-ranging aerial raids.
The tension prevalent in the city made it the perfect tinderbox for a populace that now saw fighting the war as a death sentence, rather than an existential need, and then the news that Frank Kernan, who despite the massive setbacks in his two years at ASO had nonetheless been competent, loyal and committed in his role and made the Yankees bleed through the whole of 1915 for all of their gains, had just been cashiered by the President for "defeatism," the greatest crime that could be committed in the National Alliance for Victory's eyes.
Red Scarves militias were jubilant and began parading around the city, exhorting their fellow citizens that the fight was now on that "victory men" like Hugh Scott were back in charge; an ad hoc mix of reservists, overeager boys as young as twelve, Home Guardsmen, and men who had been wounded at the front and thus could not serve in trenches, they were widely loathed by the general citizenry and the Army alike. Crucially, the Red Scarves did not realize that Kernan had staffed the defense of Charlotte with his most trusted junior officers, all of whom were appalled at his sacking (though, technically, Kernan resigned, a fact often lost in retellings of the Carolina Crisis) and immediately indignant at the idea postulated by Red Scarves hollering through Charlotte that it had simply been the man at the head of ASO who had prevented the grievous setbacks of the past twelve months..."
- Making Sense of the Senseless: The Great American War at 100
"...Kernan arrived in Raleigh late in the afternoon to receive news that skirmishes had broken out in Charlotte between his defensive reserve and Red Scarves throughout the city, and immediately went to deal with Governor Locke Craig, whose talents as an administrator had helped North Carolina sustain itself better than many other states during the leanest hours of the war. Craig was alarmed at the news himself, but worriedly noted to Kernan that the State Militia had no men to spare; most of its deployment was entirely under Lejeune to the north, preventing Hall's advances into the state. Kernan then cabled Charlotte to get a better sense of what was happening; he was informed that many Congressmen had fled the city towards Greensboro or Raleigh, including the Vice President, George Patton, who would arrive late that night under heavy guard.
The city, it turned out, had plunged almost fully into chaos; Red Scarves had seized the Mecklenburg County Courthouse which Congress had been using as its meeting place and taken dozens of politicians hostage under the guise of "protecting" them against a purported putsch organized by Kernan, which they believed was ongoing as the Army put up barricades across the city and seized the armories and railyards. Speaker Heflin, one of said hostages, demanded that Vardaman immediately order the Red Scarves to cease, and Vardaman's response was to demand that the "mutineers" (the soldiers) surrender before he "risked the safety of the legislature's corpus."
Martin arrived in Raleigh shortly before Patton and asked Kernan what his thoughts were; Kernan's response was that it seemed clear that the capital was completely out of control and that "we cannot move divided." Kernan's comment was meant literally, that the solution needed to be found before next steps were taken, but Martin understood it to mean that the eruption in Charlotte to Kernan meant that, with the jaws of the Yankee closing around the Confederate neck, the war was effectively over and it was time to pursue peace. Martin then made a fateful decision - he asked Kernan if he would accept a return to ASO if Vardaman were no longer President, and Kernan said yes, provided that he was empowered to pursue an immediate unconditional ceasefire - distinct from an unconditional peace - and that for all of Lejeune's effors, the situation was hopeless in South Carolina and that a breakthrough along the Roanoke-Dan front was likely within days. Martin begrudgingly agreed and stated that once a quorum was gathered in Raleigh, he would begin impeachment proceedings. Kernan in his memoir expressed deep skepticism at this plan - if for no reason beyond it being unlikely such a quorum could be formed, or the Speaker himself being a hostage - but he said nothing at the time to Martin.
He did not have to; the situation in Charlotte deteriorated rapidly enough to force events along. Despite his appointment earlier in the day by Vardaman, Scott was an Army man first and foremost, and would not countenance the Red Scarves revolt under his own nose; for that, he was ambushed and assassinated by two of them late at night returning to his quarters, leaving the Army in Charlotte headless..."
- The Last Days of the Old Confederacy: How the War Was Lost in 1916
"...that the Red Scarves in fact did not have much of a plan as to what they sought to accomplish during the events of November 8-9; having convinced themselves in the chaos erupting from skirmishes and a remarkable show of force by the Army in Charlotte that a putsch was on, they barricaded themselves inside the Mecklenburg Courthouse with those Congressmen and Senators who had been unable to flee and then all hell broke loose. Vardaman did not countenance the move, but it did not take him long to draw the conclusion (not unreasonably, based on the facts available to him at the time) that Army units loyal to Kernan were seizing the capital to force him out as revenge for sacking their commander. The sporadic mutinies of soldiers across the front in the previous week and the collapsing war effort made him further paranoid; the murder of Hugh Scott by unknown assailants late on the 8th further alarmed him and he barricaded himself inside the Presidential residence along with several handpicked bodyguards who were neither Red Scarves nor soldiers, only to find that his phone lines had been cut.
Problems further mounted when Patton arrived in Raleigh and immediately took on the moniker of "Acting President," under the presumption that perhaps Vardaman was hostage or besieged as well. Patton was informed by Martin that there was a plan afoot to impeach Vardaman; Patton dismissed this venture as being logistically impossible and ordered that McIver be released, returned across the front, and offer an unconditional ceasefire of forty-five days, an offer he knew the Americans would be unlikely to turn down ahead of peace negotiations. With that quick decision, Patton had effectively ended the Great American War unilaterally; now the difficult part was yet to come.
News arrived that the Mecklenburg Courthouse had been stormed with minimal loss of life that morning but that fighting was still ongoing throughout Charlotte, especially in squalid refugee camps; Patton asked as to the President's status and was told that he was in his home. Here came Patton's most notable - perhaps infamous, as a matter of perspective - hour: he stated that Vardaman lacked the "ability" to secure a "lasting and fair peace" and so he must be "made" to resign. Soldiers breached the house and found Vardaman in his study, where he was handed - as Patton began making his way back to Charlotte with Kernan - a blank paper. At one twenty-six in the afternoon, November 9th, 1916, Vardaman scribbled "I hereby resign the office of the Presidency of the Confederate States of America" and signed his name, one of the last actions he would take in his life. Red Scarves, believing that the President was now being held hostage by the Army, managed to stage a diversion nearby and rush his house to free him; whether any thought of securing him and taking him off as some kind of insurgency leader is unclear. In the firefight that followed, all four Red Scarves, two soldiers, and President Vardaman were killed; his resignation letter, still on display in the Confederate National Museum, has several large and visible blood droplets on it.
Patton received word of Vardaman's inadvertent slaying near Albemarle and a Stanly County justice of the peace was brought aboard his train there to issue the oath of office in the back car of the train; Patton was thus the fourth Confederate President in the span of just over three years, and now the one charged with the extremely toxic and polarizing task of negotiating a lasting peace with the United States. He then stepped out to speak to a gathered group of people fleeing Charlotte and gave what is now known as the Albemarle Address, where from the back of the train he declared, "A peace with dignity, that accepts our defeat graciously and bears in remembrance those of our sons who lost their lives for the great, noble cause of this Confederacy, her civilization, and the endurance of her way of life." The reaction of the crowd was muted; for many, the collapse of Dixie that had begun earlier that summer had left them too drained to be despondent at their defeat.
With the Albemarle Address, Patton had essentially announced the Confederacy's intent to surrender, even as dozens of Congressmen - and, for that matter, North Carolina Locke Craig - were insistent that a "permanent insurgency" go on. But it was not all well - the Confederacy's war may have ended, but Patton's war to bring about a lasting peace with the United States and some kind of stability at home had only now begun..."
The Bourbon Restoration: The Confederate States 1915-33
The tension prevalent in the city made it the perfect tinderbox for a populace that now saw fighting the war as a death sentence, rather than an existential need, and then the news that Frank Kernan, who despite the massive setbacks in his two years at ASO had nonetheless been competent, loyal and committed in his role and made the Yankees bleed through the whole of 1915 for all of their gains, had just been cashiered by the President for "defeatism," the greatest crime that could be committed in the National Alliance for Victory's eyes.
Red Scarves militias were jubilant and began parading around the city, exhorting their fellow citizens that the fight was now on that "victory men" like Hugh Scott were back in charge; an ad hoc mix of reservists, overeager boys as young as twelve, Home Guardsmen, and men who had been wounded at the front and thus could not serve in trenches, they were widely loathed by the general citizenry and the Army alike. Crucially, the Red Scarves did not realize that Kernan had staffed the defense of Charlotte with his most trusted junior officers, all of whom were appalled at his sacking (though, technically, Kernan resigned, a fact often lost in retellings of the Carolina Crisis) and immediately indignant at the idea postulated by Red Scarves hollering through Charlotte that it had simply been the man at the head of ASO who had prevented the grievous setbacks of the past twelve months..."
- Making Sense of the Senseless: The Great American War at 100
"...Kernan arrived in Raleigh late in the afternoon to receive news that skirmishes had broken out in Charlotte between his defensive reserve and Red Scarves throughout the city, and immediately went to deal with Governor Locke Craig, whose talents as an administrator had helped North Carolina sustain itself better than many other states during the leanest hours of the war. Craig was alarmed at the news himself, but worriedly noted to Kernan that the State Militia had no men to spare; most of its deployment was entirely under Lejeune to the north, preventing Hall's advances into the state. Kernan then cabled Charlotte to get a better sense of what was happening; he was informed that many Congressmen had fled the city towards Greensboro or Raleigh, including the Vice President, George Patton, who would arrive late that night under heavy guard.
The city, it turned out, had plunged almost fully into chaos; Red Scarves had seized the Mecklenburg County Courthouse which Congress had been using as its meeting place and taken dozens of politicians hostage under the guise of "protecting" them against a purported putsch organized by Kernan, which they believed was ongoing as the Army put up barricades across the city and seized the armories and railyards. Speaker Heflin, one of said hostages, demanded that Vardaman immediately order the Red Scarves to cease, and Vardaman's response was to demand that the "mutineers" (the soldiers) surrender before he "risked the safety of the legislature's corpus."
Martin arrived in Raleigh shortly before Patton and asked Kernan what his thoughts were; Kernan's response was that it seemed clear that the capital was completely out of control and that "we cannot move divided." Kernan's comment was meant literally, that the solution needed to be found before next steps were taken, but Martin understood it to mean that the eruption in Charlotte to Kernan meant that, with the jaws of the Yankee closing around the Confederate neck, the war was effectively over and it was time to pursue peace. Martin then made a fateful decision - he asked Kernan if he would accept a return to ASO if Vardaman were no longer President, and Kernan said yes, provided that he was empowered to pursue an immediate unconditional ceasefire - distinct from an unconditional peace - and that for all of Lejeune's effors, the situation was hopeless in South Carolina and that a breakthrough along the Roanoke-Dan front was likely within days. Martin begrudgingly agreed and stated that once a quorum was gathered in Raleigh, he would begin impeachment proceedings. Kernan in his memoir expressed deep skepticism at this plan - if for no reason beyond it being unlikely such a quorum could be formed, or the Speaker himself being a hostage - but he said nothing at the time to Martin.
He did not have to; the situation in Charlotte deteriorated rapidly enough to force events along. Despite his appointment earlier in the day by Vardaman, Scott was an Army man first and foremost, and would not countenance the Red Scarves revolt under his own nose; for that, he was ambushed and assassinated by two of them late at night returning to his quarters, leaving the Army in Charlotte headless..."
- The Last Days of the Old Confederacy: How the War Was Lost in 1916
"...that the Red Scarves in fact did not have much of a plan as to what they sought to accomplish during the events of November 8-9; having convinced themselves in the chaos erupting from skirmishes and a remarkable show of force by the Army in Charlotte that a putsch was on, they barricaded themselves inside the Mecklenburg Courthouse with those Congressmen and Senators who had been unable to flee and then all hell broke loose. Vardaman did not countenance the move, but it did not take him long to draw the conclusion (not unreasonably, based on the facts available to him at the time) that Army units loyal to Kernan were seizing the capital to force him out as revenge for sacking their commander. The sporadic mutinies of soldiers across the front in the previous week and the collapsing war effort made him further paranoid; the murder of Hugh Scott by unknown assailants late on the 8th further alarmed him and he barricaded himself inside the Presidential residence along with several handpicked bodyguards who were neither Red Scarves nor soldiers, only to find that his phone lines had been cut.
Problems further mounted when Patton arrived in Raleigh and immediately took on the moniker of "Acting President," under the presumption that perhaps Vardaman was hostage or besieged as well. Patton was informed by Martin that there was a plan afoot to impeach Vardaman; Patton dismissed this venture as being logistically impossible and ordered that McIver be released, returned across the front, and offer an unconditional ceasefire of forty-five days, an offer he knew the Americans would be unlikely to turn down ahead of peace negotiations. With that quick decision, Patton had effectively ended the Great American War unilaterally; now the difficult part was yet to come.
News arrived that the Mecklenburg Courthouse had been stormed with minimal loss of life that morning but that fighting was still ongoing throughout Charlotte, especially in squalid refugee camps; Patton asked as to the President's status and was told that he was in his home. Here came Patton's most notable - perhaps infamous, as a matter of perspective - hour: he stated that Vardaman lacked the "ability" to secure a "lasting and fair peace" and so he must be "made" to resign. Soldiers breached the house and found Vardaman in his study, where he was handed - as Patton began making his way back to Charlotte with Kernan - a blank paper. At one twenty-six in the afternoon, November 9th, 1916, Vardaman scribbled "I hereby resign the office of the Presidency of the Confederate States of America" and signed his name, one of the last actions he would take in his life. Red Scarves, believing that the President was now being held hostage by the Army, managed to stage a diversion nearby and rush his house to free him; whether any thought of securing him and taking him off as some kind of insurgency leader is unclear. In the firefight that followed, all four Red Scarves, two soldiers, and President Vardaman were killed; his resignation letter, still on display in the Confederate National Museum, has several large and visible blood droplets on it.
Patton received word of Vardaman's inadvertent slaying near Albemarle and a Stanly County justice of the peace was brought aboard his train there to issue the oath of office in the back car of the train; Patton was thus the fourth Confederate President in the span of just over three years, and now the one charged with the extremely toxic and polarizing task of negotiating a lasting peace with the United States. He then stepped out to speak to a gathered group of people fleeing Charlotte and gave what is now known as the Albemarle Address, where from the back of the train he declared, "A peace with dignity, that accepts our defeat graciously and bears in remembrance those of our sons who lost their lives for the great, noble cause of this Confederacy, her civilization, and the endurance of her way of life." The reaction of the crowd was muted; for many, the collapse of Dixie that had begun earlier that summer had left them too drained to be despondent at their defeat.
With the Albemarle Address, Patton had essentially announced the Confederacy's intent to surrender, even as dozens of Congressmen - and, for that matter, North Carolina Locke Craig - were insistent that a "permanent insurgency" go on. But it was not all well - the Confederacy's war may have ended, but Patton's war to bring about a lasting peace with the United States and some kind of stability at home had only now begun..."
The Bourbon Restoration: The Confederate States 1915-33
Maybe. I find his historiography odious, personally, so it wouldn’t be a particularly favorable portrayal if I did
lol guess you have your answer, Dan
This war ends with both a bang and a whimper.
Little confused on who the new President is:
*George S. Patton Sr. (born in 1833 and iOTL died in 1864) (and grandfather of the WWII general)
*George S. Patton (born in 1856) (father of the WWII general) and iOTL LA District Atty.
I'm guessing the second, though iOTL he spent most of his adult life in California and married the Daughter of the second mayor of LA (and I'm not sure that woman ever left California in her life), so either she gets moved or the man who died in Tennessee has a different mother...
*George S. Patton Sr. (born in 1833 and iOTL died in 1864) (and grandfather of the WWII general)
*George S. Patton (born in 1856) (father of the WWII general) and iOTL LA District Atty.
I'm guessing the second, though iOTL he spent most of his adult life in California and married the Daughter of the second mayor of LA (and I'm not sure that woman ever left California in her life), so either she gets moved or the man who died in Tennessee has a different mother...
And honestly iTTL, this speech is probably paired with the one that the US President gave (in Baltimore) while retreating to Philadelphia. (Crumpled hat)
The other question is with Vardeman dead, who does the US government want particularly hung? (in a lot of ways this is good for the continent. Counterfactual iTTL if Vardeman is still president when Peace Negotations start is probably an even uglier end of 1916)
(And now we wait for the capture in the Barn which was indicated would happen in December 1916)
In no particular order:
Ben Tillman - although it is mentioned he's way too sick and dies soon after the surrender anyway
Alexander Dade - The ringleader of Company R, almost certainly a goner if he doesn't off himself/get shot during his capture first.
Mason Patrick - He's not the monster Dade is but he might see the bottom of a noose for being in charge during the sack of DC/Baltimore.
Cotton Ed Smith - Even though we know he's something of an empty suit, the Americans in 1916-17 see him as the ringleader.
Thomas Martin - The real guy in charge legislatively after Tillman's ouster
The rest of the CSA upper echelon are either already dead (Vardaman, Scott) or regular generals who aren't psychopaths (Bell, Buck, Lejeune).
So proud that he escape unscathed. Only competent general for the CSA that played with its strengths.
Went back and looked at the link for Dade and noticed. the following from it
"the attitudes prevalent in the thinking behind Company R explains much of the savagery that erupted across the Confederate States during the bloody postwar occupation as well."
The other comment about the post war occupation being the size of Western Europe. With the CEW apparently not including the British, the Russians, the Ottomans or anyone in the Iberian or Fennoscandian peninsula, the area with US Occupation Troops is going to be larger than the area of the land battles of the CEW? (And that might even be true with fights in North Africa or Colombia/Venezuela! I'm not sure if the US is keeping any Occupation Troops in Chile...
Ha! Indeed…
The latter, and, so no, his son who died has same name, different mom. It was a pure wink to my audience
Hadn’t thought of Crumpled Hat and Albemarle as mirroring bookends to the conflict (on its first day and its penultimate-ish day) but I like that parallelism
How common were war crime trials pre-Nuremberg? Other than the CUPers who got hung in the OE I can’t think of many
Nothing good. I can try to throw together a Wikibox perhaps
I think during the ceasefire and negotiations the Union army will turn a blind eye to negro guerrillas and bandits and allow them access to captured supplies and weapons. They may even use some as auxiliaries to guard supply lines and communications routes. Now how friendly they are to them may vary from unit to unit but I expect various forms of 'justice' to carried out by various groups in the Confederacy and the Union doing nothing to stop it.
iOTL, I don't know who would be considered the worst National Leader in the 20th Century in North America, *maybe* Papa Doc Duvalier. (For the 19th century I'm going with Mexican President Santa Anna). I'm *hoping* that Vardaman is the consensus choice for that position for the 20th Century.