PC: Harsher punishment for Axis nations

Iserlohn

So after looking at a map of German enclaves, I asked myself: why wasn't that problem resolved post-WW2 as part of the punishments for the Axis?

So how could one achieve a (relatively) harsher punishment for the Axis nations that involves them losing (relatively) more territory, specifically those pesky enclaves (the ones west of the Vennbahn, Büsingen, Campione d'Italia)? Could all of that be rather easily done? What about other minor territorial concessions to e.g. Luxemburg, the Netherlands and the UK (Heligoland for instance)?

What do you guys think?
 

Lautréamont

The Netherlands did actually try to grab some land along the border, it's just that everyone involved kinda forgot about it after a while.
 

ghappy1000

Iserlohn said:
So after looking at a map of German enclaves, I asked myself: why wasn't that problem resolved post-WW2 as part of the punishments for the Axis?

So how could one achieve a (relatively) harsher punishment for the Axis nations that involves them losing (relatively) more territory, specifically those pesky enclaves (the ones west of the Vennbahn, Büsingen, Campione d'Italia)? Could all of that be rather easily done? What about other minor territorial concessions to e.g. Luxemburg, the Netherlands and the UK (Heligoland for instance)?

What do you guys think?
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Harsher punishment of Axis war criminals is another solution, isn't it? Perhaps a pod of no Cold War [or one of lower intensity] allows the Americans [, French] and British to try war criminals harder. Or, have some of them be unlucky to be caught by communists, Soviets or stricter [and pro Soviet members] of the Allied militaries and you can do the trick. For more notorious ones, a change in perception or even being unlucky to be caught by any Allied personnel and you can do the trick. More nations going communist can also do the trick, at least for leadership.
For territory, it depends on circumstances. But, a harsher partition of Germany and/or restrictions on German industries [and the same with Japan] does the trick. At least Operation Downfall launched on Japan.
 

General Tirpitz

The Soviets had originally plans to move the Finnish border more towards west, to the Kymijoki river in 1944. The border would have been approximately the same as the Russo-Swedish border in 1800.

haminan+rauha+raja+kartta


At the end though they wanted to get over with negotiations quickly so they didn't push it.

The Soviets could also demand higher war reparations and take a tougher line towards war-responsibility trials.
 
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Remitonov

Remitonov

AliceInDystopia said:
The Netherlands did actually try to grab some land along the border, it's just that everyone involved kinda forgot about it after a while.
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They do still own a hill they annexed, after West Germany paid for the rest to be returned.

Of course, their plans were a lot more ambitious than what they took in OTL. Fortunately, the Allies told them off since it would worsen any attempt to resettle the Germans arriving from areas annexed in the east
 
fluttersky

fluttersky

What if there is no forced migration of Germans, but all of Germany is annexed into neighboring countries, along with forced cultural assimilation into those countries?
 

The Sandman

Banned
Break up Germany further by attaching the southern areas (Bavaria, Wurttemburg and Baden) to Austria. Give South Schleswig to Denmark. Let the French annex the Saar outright.

Have the Italians give Trieste to Yugoslavia. Some minor border adjustments in France's favor.

The Soviets could break Transylvania off from both Romania and Hungary, returning Romania's borders to their pre-WWI state in the process.

Thailand could be forced to cede its Malay-dominated provinces on the Kra peninsula to Malaya, along with minor border adjustments in the favor of Burma and French Indochina.

Finland could eventually be forced into the Soviet Union the way the Baltics were. Failing that, the aforementioned border shift and possibly other concessions could be made.

Japan could have had a Soviet-controlled Hokkaido, had the war continued much longer. Otherwise, the only territorial change I can see would be a permanent cession of everything aside from the four main islands and such smaller islands as are definitely in internal waters (Awaji being an example of what constitutes such); they were stripped of everything else IOTL. For the most part, harsher punishment would have required reparations to their victims, more thorough war crimes trials, and a general reorganization of society, all of which would at the very least have required somebody other than MacArthur to be in charge of the occupation.
 

Ancien Regime

Banned
If anything both countries got off easy *after* the war was over compared what they got DURING the war. If America was angry enough and didn't care as much about having a Cold War ally they could have hung Hirohito, abolished the monarchy, and expropriated the Japanese capitalist class in a manner that would have Stalin sending a shipment of vodka in approval. Japan would have a lot less problems today if America was more diligent about rooting out Japanese militarism (contrast relations between Japan/Korea/China (even though half of Korea is ruled by the DRPK) today to Germany's relationship with France/Russia/Poland today!)

This is probably stretching the bounds of plausibility but I could definitely see a harsher peace for Japan. I could definitely see a harsher effort to purge Japanese society of militarism and not allow Japanese war criminals to slip back into society.

For Germany, you could see the absolute eradication of the unified German state, having it being broken into administrative versions of the old dukedoms and kingdoms, ruled as puppet states by the occupiers. Keep in mind that OTL unified Germany has gone above and beyond the worst nightmares of everyone who was terrified of German unification in the mid 19th century, to the point that even in OTL a reunified Germany put Britain and France on edge.

I think a full annexation of every German land highly is improbable but you could have something like a return to the broken up and divided German situation in the 15th and 16th centuries, with maybe a customs union and and free passage.
 

xxmagex

You might look at the aftermath in Calbear's timeline "Anglo-American/Nazi War" where a longer war leads to much, much, much harsher results for Nazi Germany.
 
Simon

Simon

The Sandman said:
Break up Germany further by attaching the southern areas (Bavaria, Wurttemburg and Baden) to Austria.
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Oh hell no. If anything Austria, or at least large parts of her government and population, should have been in the dock right alongside the Germans. Instead they embraced the 'We were one of the Nazis first victims' defence rubbish, became neutral and generally tried to forget/draw a veil over any embarrassing wartime events rather than being forced to confront them like Germany.
 

MrHaakwood

Iserlohn said:
So after looking at a map of German enclaves, I asked myself: why wasn't that problem resolved post-WW2 as part of the punishments for the Axis?

So how could one achieve a (relatively) harsher punishment for the Axis nations that involves them losing (relatively) more territory, specifically those pesky enclaves (the ones west of the Vennbahn, Büsingen, Campione d'Italia)? Could all of that be rather easily done? What about other minor territorial concessions to e.g. Luxemburg, the Netherlands and the UK (Heligoland for instance)?

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
Why do you need a AH scenario, if reality already fulfilled your goal?

94ae70febfeeedcce158e8662b5916d0.jpg


There are no big German enclaves left in Europe. Their century old culture was destroyed.
 

Iserlohn

MrHaakwood said:
Why do you need a AH scenario, if reality already fulfilled your goal?


There are no big German enclaves left in Europe. Their century old culture was destroyed.
Click to expand...

Most people's ideas were more extreme than I asked for. Minor further concessions should be quite easy and and I wanted suggestions for the how (and many more a couple more whats). Sure, the Allies, primarily the Soviets, were harsh but overall... Basically I wanted more Eupen-Malmedys XD
 
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