Operation Griffon

[The Sandman]

I know we've been over the topic of why the unmentionable sea mammal was impossible time and time again, and agree that the changes required to make Sea Lion possible are so large that you've probably butterflied the OTL course of WWII up through the Fall of France out of existence.

But what about coming in from the skies?

In short, could helicopter research and deployment have been advanced to a significant enough degree that an airmobile invasion of Britain would be possible in 1940-41, without altering the war up to that point beyond recognition?

 

[StevoJH]

The problem is, even if you can get the troops across the channel, you have to supply them with food, munitions, transport etc.

The only way to provide enough supplies to allow a meaningful sized force....is by sea..

 

[Whanztastic]

Hmm... but it is a good point that any invasion of the UK would probably have substantial paratrooper assistance and could probably be used to capture critical points and cities to create pockets in front of an invasion but its role would probably be auxiliary.

 

[The Sandman]

The problem is, even if you can get the troops across the channel, you have to supply them with food, munitions, transport etc.

The only way to provide enough supplies to allow a meaningful sized force....is by sea..

That depends. I figure the real POD would be the Germans deciding to put a much higher priority on the Air Force, and essentially not bother with a surface navy beyond a handful of destroyers and smaller craft and a few transports just in case. Since there's no way the Germans can build enough of a navy to keep the RN out of the Channel and the North Sea, land-based air would be given that task instead.

Airmobile troops would be used to seize critical facilities in southern England; in particular, to take at least one port and an airfield or two through which reinforcements and supplies can be delivered. The other priority target would be the British government itself, as allowing it enough time to relocate from London would prolong the war. Helicopters would allow you to precisely place your airmobile troops, without the scatter and injuries inherent to paradrops; depending on the size and armament of the helicopters, they might also provide a degree of anti-vehicle support that paratroopers tended to lack.

 

[The Kiat]

Helicopters make for great raids, but I'm not convinced an army could be airlifted and supplied in a hostile land. Even today, ships are the best way to deliver supplies.

 

[The Sandman]

Helicopters make for great raids, but I'm not convinced an army could be airlifted and supplied in a hostile land. Even today, ships are the best way to deliver supplies.

The problem for the Germans is that the Royal Navy is going to be in the way, and there's no chance whatsover of the Kriegsmarine being able to protect an invasion attempt.

 

[Larrikin]

That depends. I figure the real POD would be the Germans deciding to put a much higher priority on the Air Force, and essentially not bother with a surface navy beyond a handful of destroyers and smaller craft and a few transports just in case. Since there's no way the Germans can build enough of a navy to keep the RN out of the Channel and the North Sea, land-based air would be given that task instead.

Airmobile troops would be used to seize critical facilities in southern England; in particular, to take at least one port and an airfield or two through which reinforcements and supplies can be delivered. The other priority target would be the British government itself, as allowing it enough time to relocate from London would prolong the war. Helicopters would allow you to precisely place your airmobile troops, without the scatter and injuries inherent to paradrops; depending on the size and armament of the helicopters, they might also provide a degree of anti-vehicle support that paratroopers tended to lack.

Even Defiants would find helicopters easy targets, as would Gladiators. If they come in low and slow, as they would have to, the Spits and Hurries would take on the escorts, and every antiquated fighter in the RAF's inventory would take to the skies to turkey shoot the helos. Not to mention the light AA would have a field day. Even farmers with their shotguns would be taking effective pot shots.

 

[juanml82]

And even if you land the troops, there is simply no way the Germans will be able to supply the amounts of soldiers required by air. Which bring us back to the beginning.

Now, helicopters used to launch air assaults as part of the Blitzkrieg, if technologically feasible, in the early days of WWII, on the other hand....



Well, no, I don't really have a clue on the effects

 

[cbr]

I don't see how you can advance helicopter tech so much and still be in the realm of reality, in OTL helicopters started being useful in Korea and combat effective in Vietnam, that's a lot of time for R&D.

How would the germans build a viable helicoper by 1940? When OTL there were only a few prototypes flying in 1945, add to that the fact that if you are building helicopters you can to ask yourself... What are the germans not building? Tanks? Fighters? Bombers?

All that and there is still to address the fact that any helicopter would be very slow and cumbersome and very easy to shoot down with AA weapons, the RN would have a turkey shoot over the channel.

Another point would be the fact that Hitler gave up on the Paratroopers after the huge losses in Crete, an invasion of Britain would be at least an order of magnitude larger than that.

 

[eltf177]

I had a somewhat similar idea myself, but more of a 'demonstration' than an actual invasion - ww.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=121854

There were only a handful of helicopters in existance in 1940 and these were maintainance-hungry, tempromental machines. Even by 1945 they were few and far between, used mostly for medical evac. As cbr mentioned it wasn't until Korea that the technology had matured to the point were large numbers were feasable.

 

[Satrap]

Cbr posted :-I don't see how you can advance helicopter tech so much and still be in the realm of reality, in OTL helicopters started being useful in Korea and combat effective in Vietnam, that's a lot of time for R&D.

How would the germans build a viable helicoper by 1940? When OTL there were only a few prototypes flying in 1945, add to that the fact that if you are building helicopters you can to ask yourself... What are the germans not building? Tanks? Fighters? Bombers?

The lack of suitable engine power was probably one of the main limiting factors in creating suitable heavy lift capcity. The Fairy coompany in the UK design a sort of "half-way" house solution between the '30's Autogyro/Gyrocopter and true helicopters in the form of the Fairy Rotodyne.

It is not too far fetched for German engineers to build such an aircraft as all necessary tech is either available or being developed.

With such a craft and large transport a/c (ala Me Gigant) there could be some difficulties for Britain in an invasion scenario

 

[Just Leo]

The helicopter was not a weapon of war until Vietnam, with the advent of turbine engines of sufficient power to supply the payload/range requirements. The Gigant wasn't available in the time frame but would have been a juicy target as it was over the Med. As with Arnhem, the airborne troops must be relieved by heavy forces after a suitable period. Those forces wouldn't be coming. There's still that pesky RAF in the skies.

 

[The Sandman]

The real POD is that the Germans don't bother with a surface navy beyond the absolute minimum necessary and focus all of that money and materials on the Luftwaffe instead. Improved helicopter tech would be one outgrowth of this. as would improved medium bomber designs and longer-range fighters (both necessary in order to realistically combat the RN in the North Sea and Channel).

 

[Typo]

No, airborne invasions need immediate ground support to not turn into a diseaster.

I'm sure the odds are on the British side even with today's helicopter technology.

 

[eltf177]

The real POD is that the Germans don't bother with a surface navy beyond the absolute minimum necessary and focus all of that money and materials on the Luftwaffe instead. Improved helicopter tech would be one outgrowth of this. as would improved medium bomber designs and longer-range fighters (both necessary in order to realistically combat the RN in the North Sea and Channel).

This makes sense as now money and materials are available, but the research has to be pushed through as well. And of course you're going to need crews.

How many are going to be built and how many troops can be ferried per sortie? You're going to have to get in artillery, a few tanks and _lots_ of ammo and supplies including horses, trucks and prime movers. The German's will get little to nothing from the countryside so if they need it they have to bring it. Any resupply means fewer new troops being brought in (and with the UK fighting for every inch of soil ground losses will be heavy). Aircraft and helicopter losses from the RAF, RN, ground AA and plain wear-and-tear will be high as well and must be replaced as will their crews.

And any bad weather will mean no resupply at all, which means you probably end up with another Stalingrad but with no hope of extraditing any of your army.

 

[Ariosto]

Well, you could have German Paratroopers land in London and try and take Parliament or Buckingham Palace, or both when present. With Helicopters it is much easier. Threatening to shot the VIPs if there are met with any hostility, they are all airlifted out of London to Germany. There, they are used as a bargaining chip for peace. At the same time, most of the military would be alone the coasts (where an invasion threat is prevelant), but it still stands as to how many men you would need for such a Operation to be successful. Likely a thousand at minimum.

However, to be successful, they would have to take out the radar stations alone the corridor that day, and crater as many of the airfields as possible except those in London. The Operation itself would take place at night so as to cut down on casualties and take the British by suprise. Even with all that, the possibility of success is not great.

 

[The Sandman]

However, to be successful, they would have to take out the radar stations alone the corridor that day

This is another key element of the scenario: the Germans are likely to use helicopters as a way of infiltrating and exfiltrating commandos for attacks on the Chain Home system.

And yes, I know full well that to support a long-term ground invasion the Germans would need some other method of supply. For a smash-and-grab, though, or as a way of taking the initial ports/airfields that you would later ship supplies through, airborne/airmobile assault is much more likely to work than anything seaborne.

Also, the Germans have a much better chance of holding the RN off their supply convoys if they focused all of their energy and resources on improving the Luftwaffe than by any affordable development of the Kriegsmarine. For that matter, they have a better chance of starving Britain out that way too; assuming the Germans can gain air superiority, and that they've developed aircraft with the necessary range, they can probably shut down the major ports of England through bombing raids much more quickly than they can shut down sea traffic with submarines and convoy raiders.