Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I think this fits well
Well I predict a savage naval battle with the Cretan division arriving mostly unscathed but the G. Averof sucrificing itself . After that , the Cretans (and later the whole Greek Army) use the battlecry "This Is For Old Uncle George" ! For non Greek readers, Old Uncle George is the nickname of the ship.
No i prefer that averof remains the terror of the Turkish fleet instead of been sunk...just imagine the naval museum with averof AND ares...think about that.😝
Averof suffers damange after giving the Turkish fleet a hard beating and needs to be beached on a small uninhabited island around Chios becoming a museum later on?
Should smyrna fall is it possible to fall back at a line at around seferihisar?
To be fair, of four battles so far the Italians have won the third while the first was mostly a German affair...
The British were serious security wise, and there is no reason for this to change TTL...
To be fai they do have to accommodate their allies...
This could have many interpretations...
But there is one. Between Gyzi and Ampelokipoi. Of course it is named after a different public gift of Mr Averof...
Last? No comment.
If theory you can set up a line of defense in the Erytrean/Cesme peninsula. How much it would be worth if Smyrna itself has fallen and how you keep in supply any big army there...
Part 91 Poseidon's broomstick
Aegean sea, December 29-31, 1941
When the Hellenic Navy sails out of Eleusis bay in the night of December 29th, 1941, it has been having a very active war for the last year. In fourteen months the navy has fought in the invasion of the Dodecanese, relieved the survivors of the garrison of Corfu, fought in three fleet actions at Cythera, Lesvos and Malta and also had to deal with innumerable air and submarine attacks. Overall the Greeks can be justifiably proud of their navy. But the fourteen months of war have taken their toll on the fleet. The single battleship, Salamis, is under repair following damage in the battle of Malta. Of the five cruisers, one, Koundouriotis, has been sunk by German aircraft back in April. Two more destroyers have been added to the fleet. But at the same time seven have been lost in action so far reducing the fleet to 19. Four, out of the original twelve submarines of the fleet have been also lost with only a single boat, the Delphin, delivered earlier in the year.
On the Turkish side casualties have been so far, quite lower. The armoured ship Barbaros, the light cruiser Turgut Reis and a single destroyer were lost in the battle of Lesvos in March 1941. Afterwards the Turkish surface fleet did not venture in the Aegean, concentrating instead in supporting the Turkish army operations against the Soviets. In this it has been generally successful, the battle of Samsun has done much to restore the navy's self-confidence even though the victory, and the battle itself, came from the Italian ships attached to the Turkish navy attacking the Soviets. In the Aegean and the eastern Mediterranean, the Turks have been limited to submarines and motor torpedo boat attacks which have been met with some success despite heavy escort and the Greeks also building and deploying motor torpedo boats of their own in the East Aegean islands to counter Turkish, Italian and German boats. The main problem of the Turkish navy is its near complete inability to replace losses. Local shipbuilding capabilities are rudimentary at best, locally building destroyers or submarines has been proposed but has proven so far impossible. Italian industry has her hands full with the needs of the Regia Marina. Germany given geography cannot provide anything that cannot be transferred overland. Aside from motor torpedo boats the sole exception is submarines. Twenty-six U-boats have made it through Gibraltar to the Mediterranean. Three more small Type IIB U-Boats U-9, U-19 and U-24 have been moved overland and through the Danube to the Black sea, with more on the way. Of the 29 U-boats, 9 have been assigned to the 23th and 30th U-Boat flotillas operating from bases in Thessaloniki, Lemnos and Constantinople with 3 more on their way there from the Western Mediterranean.
The Greeks find themselves in battle almost as soon as they are out of the Megara channel when U-75 attacks and sinks the light cruiser Lambros Katsonis. The German submarine is depth charged and sunk shortly afterwards by the destroyers Kanaris and Kriezis. More submarine attacks follow during the night as their convoy heads south-east to the Cyclades before turning north-east towards Ikaria, to turn north from there towards the Chios channel and Smyrna. To this as dawn comes are added Luftwaffe, THK and Regia Aeronautica aircraft, though thankfully for the Greeks they have strong air cover of their own, the Polish 303 Squadron will particularly distinguish itself during the fighting of the day. Then the Turkish navy coming from the north is detected and rear admiral Kolialexis, swings Averof, Helli and 8 of his 13 destroyers north towards the Turks as the his transports covered by the remaining destroyers rush for Chios and the relative safety of the coastal fortifications.
The two fleets meet to the west of Chios and south of Psara. Orbay has the pocket battleship Fatih, the strongest ship on both sides, the small light cruiser Yavuz and numerical superiority in light ships with 12 destroyers and 3 torpedo boats to Kolialexis 8. Kolialexis has two heavy ships while his destroyers while fewer are ship for ship considerably more powerful than most their Turkish counterparts. Overall the two fleets are far more evenly matched materially than either of the two admirals would had liked. And when they engage neither side is much interested in retreat. The result is a hard fought battle with casualties much heavier than someone might have otherwise expected. Fatih, engaged by Helli and Averof and attacked by Greek torpedo bombers is sunk, with Orbay killed in action. Helli, severely damaged in the action against Fatih is sunk in turn by U-331 as it tries to reach Smyrna. Two Greek destroyers, Leon and Spetsai are also sunk but so so three Turkish and one Italian destroyer. When the next morning Averof enters Smyrna harbour, the Greeks have suffered heavily, including the loss of 5 merchant ships. But their Cretan division has made it to Smyrna mostly intact...
When the Hellenic Navy sails out of Eleusis bay in the night of December 29th, 1941, it has been having a very active war for the last year. In fourteen months the navy has fought in the invasion of the Dodecanese, relieved the survivors of the garrison of Corfu, fought in three fleet actions at Cythera, Lesvos and Malta and also had to deal with innumerable air and submarine attacks. Overall the Greeks can be justifiably proud of their navy. But the fourteen months of war have taken their toll on the fleet. The single battleship, Salamis, is under repair following damage in the battle of Malta. Of the five cruisers, one, Koundouriotis, has been sunk by German aircraft back in April. Two more destroyers have been added to the fleet. But at the same time seven have been lost in action so far reducing the fleet to 19. Four, out of the original twelve submarines of the fleet have been also lost with only a single boat, the Delphin, delivered earlier in the year.
On the Turkish side casualties have been so far, quite lower. The armoured ship Barbaros, the light cruiser Turgut Reis and a single destroyer were lost in the battle of Lesvos in March 1941. Afterwards the Turkish surface fleet did not venture in the Aegean, concentrating instead in supporting the Turkish army operations against the Soviets. In this it has been generally successful, the battle of Samsun has done much to restore the navy's self-confidence even though the victory, and the battle itself, came from the Italian ships attached to the Turkish navy attacking the Soviets. In the Aegean and the eastern Mediterranean, the Turks have been limited to submarines and motor torpedo boat attacks which have been met with some success despite heavy escort and the Greeks also building and deploying motor torpedo boats of their own in the East Aegean islands to counter Turkish, Italian and German boats. The main problem of the Turkish navy is its near complete inability to replace losses. Local shipbuilding capabilities are rudimentary at best, locally building destroyers or submarines has been proposed but has proven so far impossible. Italian industry has her hands full with the needs of the Regia Marina. Germany given geography cannot provide anything that cannot be transferred overland. Aside from motor torpedo boats the sole exception is submarines. Twenty-six U-boats have made it through Gibraltar to the Mediterranean. Three more small Type IIB U-Boats U-9, U-19 and U-24 have been moved overland and through the Danube to the Black sea, with more on the way. Of the 29 U-boats, 9 have been assigned to the 23th and 30th U-Boat flotillas operating from bases in Thessaloniki, Lemnos and Constantinople with 3 more on their way there from the Western Mediterranean.
The Greeks find themselves in battle almost as soon as they are out of the Megara channel when U-75 attacks and sinks the light cruiser Lambros Katsonis. The German submarine is depth charged and sunk shortly afterwards by the destroyers Kanaris and Kriezis. More submarine attacks follow during the night as their convoy heads south-east to the Cyclades before turning north-east towards Ikaria, to turn north from there towards the Chios channel and Smyrna. To this as dawn comes are added Luftwaffe, THK and Regia Aeronautica aircraft, though thankfully for the Greeks they have strong air cover of their own, the Polish 303 Squadron will particularly distinguish itself during the fighting of the day. Then the Turkish navy coming from the north is detected and rear admiral Kolialexis, swings Averof, Helli and 8 of his 13 destroyers north towards the Turks as the his transports covered by the remaining destroyers rush for Chios and the relative safety of the coastal fortifications.
The two fleets meet to the west of Chios and south of Psara. Orbay has the pocket battleship Fatih, the strongest ship on both sides, the small light cruiser Yavuz and numerical superiority in light ships with 12 destroyers and 3 torpedo boats to Kolialexis 8. Kolialexis has two heavy ships while his destroyers while fewer are ship for ship considerably more powerful than most their Turkish counterparts. Overall the two fleets are far more evenly matched materially than either of the two admirals would had liked. And when they engage neither side is much interested in retreat. The result is a hard fought battle with casualties much heavier than someone might have otherwise expected. Fatih, engaged by Helli and Averof and attacked by Greek torpedo bombers is sunk, with Orbay killed in action. Helli, severely damaged in the action against Fatih is sunk in turn by U-331 as it tries to reach Smyrna. Two Greek destroyers, Leon and Spetsai are also sunk but so so three Turkish and one Italian destroyer. When the next morning Averof enters Smyrna harbour, the Greeks have suffered heavily, including the loss of 5 merchant ships. But their Cretan division has made it to Smyrna mostly intact...
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I think the WAllies are horrified by the Greek casualties even though the Turks would have barely nothing and can't rebuild it's navy. The Italians should have a big enough navy in the Med to fuck with ally war plans. What about the French navy?
On other news, averof lives to fight another day! I hope ares and averof would be displayed in a museum thing post WWII. That'd be fun. And the navy did successfully get the Cretans to Smyrna.
I think post WWII I think the Greeks will be compensated heavily for their sacrifices in WWII. What lands would Greece be gifted
On other news, averof lives to fight another day! I hope ares and averof would be displayed in a museum thing post WWII. That'd be fun. And the navy did successfully get the Cretans to Smyrna.
I think post WWII I think the Greeks will be compensated heavily for their sacrifices in WWII. What lands would Greece be gifted
A strategic victory for the Greeks and Averof sails on to haunt the Turkish navy forevermore. Actually does Turkey really have a navy to speak of now without Fatih or Orbay? Ships seem to be getting a bit fewer and farther between in the med, for most powers actually...
Hopefully the Crete division is enough to reinforce Smyrna even with the losses.
By the way, has the situation changed very much in the Caucasus Front or is it still relatively stagnant?
Hopefully the Crete division is enough to reinforce Smyrna even with the losses.
By the way, has the situation changed very much in the Caucasus Front or is it still relatively stagnant?
Huh, wouldn't the British have at the very least sent a destroyer squadron or something to help the Greeks?
While the loss of the merchant ships, the Helli (heavy cruiser?), three destroyers and further damage to the Averoff should not be shrugged off, this fundamentally cripples the Turkish navy preventing it from further operations in the Black Sea against the Soviets and absolutely incapable of any naval blockade of significance with regards to Smyrna. Greek destroyer losses should be partially covered by the British naval squadrons in the Eastern Med. I'm sure the results of this battle will lead to greater coordination between Germans, Italians, and Turks and not devolve into a game of hot potatoes, mutual distrust and greater inefficiency.
Yes, the Cretans have arrived safely! The German-Turkish breakthrough is going to suffer badly...
How much artillery (and of what types) does the Cretan division have?
Well I am glad that G. Averof has survived! Is there going to be any Lend-Lease assistance in terms of capital ships (Light cruisers and above) given to the Greeks? What kind of equipment is been handed out to the Greeks ITTL from Lend-Lease ? If I remember correctly, the main items have been airplanes, artillery and trucks.
Finally, the Turkish Navy is reduced to just one capital ship, I think. But their biggest loss is Orbay, without him there won't be any strong drive to ressurect the Navy.
How much artillery (and of what types) does the Cretan division have?
Well I am glad that G. Averof has survived! Is there going to be any Lend-Lease assistance in terms of capital ships (Light cruisers and above) given to the Greeks? What kind of equipment is been handed out to the Greeks ITTL from Lend-Lease ? If I remember correctly, the main items have been airplanes, artillery and trucks.
Finally, the Turkish Navy is reduced to just one capital ship, I think. But their biggest loss is Orbay, without him there won't be any strong drive to ressurect the Navy.
Never happened OTL. The only transferred ships larger than destroyers were escort carriers (many to Britain, IIRC one to France). And some ships sent to the USSR in token of part of the surrendered Italian navy.
The Italians DO have a large navy. The French navy... the obvious question is which of the two French navies? The one at Toulon or the Fighting French? The latter are for the most part operating in the Atlantic at the moment, Richelieu and Algerie did play a central role in the alt battle of Denmark strait.
Perhaps. Then perhaps not. Depends on great power interests at the end of the war. After all Poland also made huge sacrifices during WW2. What what her compensation, losing her Eastern territories to the Soviet Union and ending up with a puppet government for 45 years?
It was always the lucky uncle George.
Turkey... why they still have the fourth largest Axis navy at the moment behind Japan, Italy and Germany. Well ok their antagonism is Finland and Romania... More seriously as of the end of the year the TDK, has 1 light cruiser, 8 destroyers and 11 submarines, as well as a number of Motor torpedo boats. Not much by great power standards but a pretty respectable force nevertheless.
Largely static with the Soviets stopped before Erzurum at the moment. And as seen by the battle of Sarikamis back in 1914 the weather is unsuitable for any large scale offensive surely?
The Royal Navy is uhm somewhat tied down at the moment. The battle of Malta was fought only two days before. And the RN needs to both keep the 8th army in supply, much further west that OTL and Tripoli cut off from supplies to the extend possible.
The TTL Greek navy in absolute numbers is much stronger than the OTL Greek fleet in exile. By the same token the allies also need to keep Greece in supply...
Of course...
Typically at the start of the war 36 field guns, two thirds being 75mm and the rest 105mm. How much the typical Greek division holds in the end of 1941? That's a more interesting question. On one hand the Greeks had taken large casualties. On the other they have disbanded several divisions to reinforce others. On the third hand they've been producing a trickle of artillery and receiving more from Britain and the United States. On paper they are likely evolving towards a similar organization to the German and American models, the Greeks like the US have learned their trade from the French and since the institutional continuity of the Greek army has not been broken evolving towards American lines looks to me much more likely than going and starting to organize along British lines. In practice? Everything is in flux at the moment and the Cretans are bringing along some mix of 75mm, 105mm and 155mm guns. And maybe some 25pdr guns as well to add to the fun though since these are still relatively few at the moment they are probably being kept in European Greece.
And spam. Lets not forget spam!
I'm not altogether certain I wasn't kind on Rauf bey. No matter what happens to Turkey, a bright future for its navy during the war isn't entirely likely. Not when it is on the opposite side of the combined might of the RN and USN...
The only transferred s
en.wikipedia.org
Actually, three U.S. icebreakers were transferred to the USSR under Lend Lease - at 269' in length and 6,500 tons in displacement they weren't small.
Wind-class icebreaker - Wikipedia
Discounting the Commonwealth, the British did transfer to the Poles a pair of Danaes during the war. The French had more than enough heavy ships, 2 battleships, 1 carrier and 9 cruisers. Which left the Dutch, Norway and the Greeks. Of the three the Norwegians likely could not man a cruiser, a Dido took 530 men, as much as the single destroyer and the pair of Hunts in RNN service. The Dutch had a pair light cruisers already and again probably no crews for more. The Greeks conceivably had the manpower for a cruiser or two, they were manning 16 destroyers and 4 corvettes after all. But they would had needed either to leave Averof without a crew or cut 3-4 destroyers to crew a single cruiser.
TTL there is one notable difference that Greece has so far not fallen. Thus has way more available naval manpower than the fleet in exile. On the other hand it also has to man more ships...