That makes 75,000 people they can host from simple comparison, but how far can it pushed, how many refugees or retreating soldiers these lands can accomodate without risk of starving everyone?
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
In my mind, that wasn't so much about the army collapsing or not, but more about waiting or not the Germans are in the suburbs of Athens to begin asking, shouldn't we dismantle and transport the factories to Crete?
There isn't an LT vz 36 in OTL, is TTL's tank a variant of the OTL Czechoslovak LT vz 35?
Are you sure about that?
I mean sure, everyone else is fighting and getting weaker but are the long term consequences of this?
The Straits are now in Turkish hands and the Black Sea open (?) to any shipping according to the will of the Germans.
And what about a German-Turkish alliance? Implications to the Caucasus region?
I am sure that the soviets are getting nervous about the axis since the turks joined them because now the germans or the Italians in theory could get in the black sea and cause trouble..of course they have to get thru the greek navy and the british eastern Mediterranean fleet but that is a possibility nonetheless.
Nah the Soviets watched an easier walkthrough into the Balkans and did nothing. They had obvious German movements to the border and did nothing again. They are not ready for war according to Stalin, and he was right if we see the opening months of Barbarossa, and didn't want to provoke the Germans at all. So ITTL they have even less reason to worry as the Germans break their heads trying to defeat the Allies in Greece and Turkey would focus in Greece or the Middle East before thinking of taking them on with their none-existent airforce and armor units.
Appendix Allied forces order of battle Balkans April 1941
GHQ, Athens (Theodore Pangalos)
Thessalian Front
Thessalian Front
- 1st Greek Army, Thessaloniki (Dimitrios Katheniotis)
- A Corps (Alexandros Papagos)
- I Infantry Division, Larisa (Basileios Brachnos)
- XIII Infantry Division, Chalkis (Stefanos Sarafis)
- Crete Division, Khanea (Georgios Dromazos)
- Archipelago division, Lesvos (Charalambos Katsimitros)
- 1st Cavalry Division (Ioannis Tsaggaridis)
- 1st Mountain Brigade (Demetrios Psarros)
- 2nd Mountain Brigade (Sotirios Moutousis)
- C Corps (Theodore Manetas)
- IX Infantry Division, Thessaloniki (Georgios Papastergiou)
- XV Infantry Division, Serres (Demetrios Giantzis)
- XIX Infantry Division, Veroia (Christos Karassos)
- XXII Infantry Division, Drama (Sergios Gyalistras)
- 2nd Cavalry Division (Sokratis Demaratos)
- British Expeditionary force (Maitland Wilson)
- 6th Australian Division (Iven Mackay)
- 2nd New Zealand Division (Bernard Freyberg)
- 85th British Infantry brigade
- 1st Free Polish Corps (Marian Kukiel)
- 1 Dywizja Grenadierów
- 2 Dywizja Strzelców Pieszych
- 4 Dywizja Piechoty
- A Corps (Alexandros Papagos)
- 3rd Yugoslav Army group (Milorad Petrovic)
- 3rd Army (Jovan Naumovic)
- 5th Infantry Division Šumadijska
- 20th Infantry Division Bregalnička
- 46th Infantry Division Moravska
- 22nd Infantry Division Ibarska
- 5th Army (Vladimir Cukavac)
- 31st Infantry Division Kosovska
- 34th Infantry Division Toplička
- 50th Infantry Division Drinska
- 2nd Cavalry Division
- 2e Corps Armee Francaise Libre (Antone Bethouart)
- 1re Division Francaise Libre
- 2e Division Francaise Libre
- 3rd Army (Jovan Naumovic)
- B Corps (Alexandros Merenditis)
- III Infantry Division (Georgios Tsolakoglou)
- IV Infantry Division (Emmanuel Mantakas)
- VIII Infantry Division (Nikolaos Plastiras)
- XIV Infantry Division (Napoleon Zervas)
- II Infantry Division, Athens (Euripidis Bakirtzis)
- 10th Infantry Regiment, Corfu (Thasymboulos Tsakalotos)
- Army of Asia Minor (Ptolemaios Sarigiannis)
- Smyrna Army Corps, Smyrna (Euthymios Tsimikalis)
- VII Infantry Division, Philadelpheia (Ignatios Kallergis)
- X Infantry Division, Magnesia (Panagiotis Spiliotopoulos)
- XI Infantry Division, Smyrna (Ioannis Alexakis)
- XVII Infantry Division, Aidini (Georgios Kosmas)
- 4th Cavalry brigade (Leonidas Spaes)
- E Army Corps, Panormos (Ioannis Pitsikas)
- V Infantry division, Panormos (Konstantinos Ventiris)
- XVI Infantry division, Kydoniai (Georgios Stanotas)
- XVIII Infantry division, Palaiokastron (Efstathios Liosis)
- 5th Cavalry brigade (Andreas Kallinskis)
- 10th Archipelago Infantry Regiment, Samos
- 75th Infantry Regiment, Lesvos
- Smyrna Army Corps, Smyrna (Euthymios Tsimikalis)
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Wait a minute, there is an army corps (A) in defense of Thessalonica? They didn't surrendered it to the Axis? Bold of them to hold an untenable position.
No Thessaloniki is the peace time headquarters of army corps A
No I did not scrub away the peacetime bases of most Greek divisions. Back at the time of the invasion you had roughly the Macedonian front consisting of two sectors, Monastir, covering the Monastir gap in the west with the Greek A corps, the Poles and the British in reserve and an Eastern Doiran sector covering Strumica and the Vardar river valley with Greek C corps, the Yugoslavs and the French in reserve.
@Lascaris, is it the current OOB? In that case, have the thracian divisions being completely destroyed?
Is it also fair to assume that greek arms industries are concentrated around Athens?
In terms of reader speculation, one thing has dawned on me. If the Thermopylae Line holds, then it is quite possible that the Smyrna Front will take priority at some point. Strictly from a political point of view, the greek government will try its best to liberate as much of European Greece as possible. But on the wider strategic view, an offensive from Smyrna to the asiatic shore of the Straits will be considered quite important. At a second stage, the european side will have to be secured. The supply route to the USSR will always be in the minds of the decision takers. However, I think such broad offensive will be possible only after Italy is knocked out of the war.
I recently read an article that had me thinking of this story. When Lawrence of Arabia died in OTL, the turkish satirical weekly Akbaba announced :
Now the microbe is very much alive and enjoying his coffee in Cairo.
Is it also fair to assume that greek arms industries are concentrated around Athens?
In terms of reader speculation, one thing has dawned on me. If the Thermopylae Line holds, then it is quite possible that the Smyrna Front will take priority at some point. Strictly from a political point of view, the greek government will try its best to liberate as much of European Greece as possible. But on the wider strategic view, an offensive from Smyrna to the asiatic shore of the Straits will be considered quite important. At a second stage, the european side will have to be secured. The supply route to the USSR will always be in the minds of the decision takers. However, I think such broad offensive will be possible only after Italy is knocked out of the war.
I recently read an article that had me thinking of this story. When Lawrence of Arabia died in OTL, the turkish satirical weekly Akbaba announced :
Now the microbe is very much alive and enjoying his coffee in Cairo.
Part 71 "For the dominion of the sea is a great matter"
Taranto, March 28th, 1941
Vittorio Veneto, Littorio and Andrea Doria left the port. Ahead of them 6 heavy and 2 light cruisers and 18 destroyers had already sailed out. The Supermarina had been resisting demands to attack the convoys from Alexandria to Piraeus that kept Greece fighting for weeks . But pressure both from the Palazzo Venezia and Berlin had start becoming unbearable as the German and Italian armies bled on the Olympus and the mountains of Epirus. The Regia Marina had gotten the better of it the two times her battleships had engaged in battle. The Germans had promised massed air support, which they could probably deliver as they were grinding down the allied air forces in Greece day by passing day and had provided intelligence that Cunningham was down to a single battleship. Even if the Greeks joined him the three Italian battleships would be the much superior force. Now was the time for the Regia Marina to act. After all it coudn't be said that it was hiding in port while the army conquered Greece...
Alexandria, March 28th, 1941
HMS Warspite, Barham, Valiant, Illustrius and Formidable, 4 light cruisers and 12 destroyers left port. If the Italians wanted to fight Andrew Cunningham was not going to disappoint them...
Eleusis bay, March 28th, 1941
Salamis, Lemnnos, the large destroyers Themistoklis and Miaoulis and the 6 Sfendoni class destroyers passed the narrows with the island of Salamis and turned south-east. HMS Bonaventure, three RN and one Australian destroyer, HMAS Vampire, would join the force when it reached the Kythera channel. Greek fleets had been calling these waters home since the time of Minos. If the Italians wanted to contest that Ioannis Demestichas would oblige them. After all it would be a shame to let the British have all the fun...
Off Lesvos, March 29th, 1941
The Turkish navy had received the news of the Italian sortie through the Germans, the Supermarina had failed to inform their ally, but the Turks had been quick to size the opportunity, with the Italians engaging the British and Greeks far in the south now was the time to cut off the communications to Smyrna. The Turkish navy had sortied. So had what passed for a landing fleet, small caiques and fishing boats that had been assembled opposite Lesvos to effect a landing. Then reconnaissance reports start coming in and the fleet turned south-west. Back a generation ago Rauf Orbay had not managed to draw Averof after him. Now was his time to take it straight on...
South of Kythera, March 29th to 30th, 1941
Battle had begun well for the Axis. Ju-88s and SM.84s flying out of Thessaloniki and Dalaman had managed to put two hits on HMS Formidable and sink HMS Calcutta before it could join Cunningham's fleet and HMS Illustrious aircraft had been mostly tied down fending off air attacks on the fleet. Italian light forces and battleships had engaged the British only for admiral Campioni to decide to turn at reports that Cunningham's three battleships, much slower than their Italian counterparts, joined the fray. On more bombing raid had then managed to break through the British fighters and put a bomb on HMS Warspite. Then at dusk the next set of bombers had shown up from the north. With light diminishing and only German and Italian raids so far it was perhaps excusable that the lookouts had mistaken the two engined aircraft to be friendly for a few precious moments. The anti-aircraft gunners had still opened up with commendable speed but the dozen PZL.37s of 13th squadron, modified to carry a pair of torpedoes each, were already on their attack runs. A single torpedo had hit Vittorio Veneto, two more hit Fiume leaving her sinking. Campioni had been forced to slow down to pick up survivors from the Fiume and as emergency repair were being done on the Veneto. By the time the Italians were going again their speed were down to 20 knots but at least the worst appeared to had passed. And then the night in front of the retreating Italian ships had been lit by the flashes from the 16in guns of Salamis...
Golcuk, March 30, 1941
Rauf Orbay was not a happy man. He had spent two decades painstakingly rebuilding his navy from nothing. Fatih Sultan Mehmet was the strongest and best protected cruiser afloat. Barbaros unique as strong and well protected as the Swedish coastal battleships but much faster than them. Fatih had failed to sink or even seriously damage the heavy cruiser that had engaged her, the damned Greek had used his superior speed to keep the distance to his advantage. Barbaros had at least scored a few hits on Averof but Averof had returned the favour with interest and Barbaros heavily damaged by 9.2in fire had been sunk by a Greek submarine off Tenedos as it limped back to the safety of the straits. And as if this had not been enough he had also lost Turgut Reis and a destroyer. That the Greeks had lost two destroyers themselves and Averof would probably spend some months in repair was small consolation. He had failed to cut off Smyrna while the landings in Lesvos had been a failure without naval support. And from the scattered reports that were coming on the fighting in the south the Italians were not going to venture east again for some time to come...
Vittorio Veneto, Littorio and Andrea Doria left the port. Ahead of them 6 heavy and 2 light cruisers and 18 destroyers had already sailed out. The Supermarina had been resisting demands to attack the convoys from Alexandria to Piraeus that kept Greece fighting for weeks . But pressure both from the Palazzo Venezia and Berlin had start becoming unbearable as the German and Italian armies bled on the Olympus and the mountains of Epirus. The Regia Marina had gotten the better of it the two times her battleships had engaged in battle. The Germans had promised massed air support, which they could probably deliver as they were grinding down the allied air forces in Greece day by passing day and had provided intelligence that Cunningham was down to a single battleship. Even if the Greeks joined him the three Italian battleships would be the much superior force. Now was the time for the Regia Marina to act. After all it coudn't be said that it was hiding in port while the army conquered Greece...
Alexandria, March 28th, 1941
HMS Warspite, Barham, Valiant, Illustrius and Formidable, 4 light cruisers and 12 destroyers left port. If the Italians wanted to fight Andrew Cunningham was not going to disappoint them...
Eleusis bay, March 28th, 1941
Salamis, Lemnnos, the large destroyers Themistoklis and Miaoulis and the 6 Sfendoni class destroyers passed the narrows with the island of Salamis and turned south-east. HMS Bonaventure, three RN and one Australian destroyer, HMAS Vampire, would join the force when it reached the Kythera channel. Greek fleets had been calling these waters home since the time of Minos. If the Italians wanted to contest that Ioannis Demestichas would oblige them. After all it would be a shame to let the British have all the fun...
Off Lesvos, March 29th, 1941
The Turkish navy had received the news of the Italian sortie through the Germans, the Supermarina had failed to inform their ally, but the Turks had been quick to size the opportunity, with the Italians engaging the British and Greeks far in the south now was the time to cut off the communications to Smyrna. The Turkish navy had sortied. So had what passed for a landing fleet, small caiques and fishing boats that had been assembled opposite Lesvos to effect a landing. Then reconnaissance reports start coming in and the fleet turned south-west. Back a generation ago Rauf Orbay had not managed to draw Averof after him. Now was his time to take it straight on...
South of Kythera, March 29th to 30th, 1941
Battle had begun well for the Axis. Ju-88s and SM.84s flying out of Thessaloniki and Dalaman had managed to put two hits on HMS Formidable and sink HMS Calcutta before it could join Cunningham's fleet and HMS Illustrious aircraft had been mostly tied down fending off air attacks on the fleet. Italian light forces and battleships had engaged the British only for admiral Campioni to decide to turn at reports that Cunningham's three battleships, much slower than their Italian counterparts, joined the fray. On more bombing raid had then managed to break through the British fighters and put a bomb on HMS Warspite. Then at dusk the next set of bombers had shown up from the north. With light diminishing and only German and Italian raids so far it was perhaps excusable that the lookouts had mistaken the two engined aircraft to be friendly for a few precious moments. The anti-aircraft gunners had still opened up with commendable speed but the dozen PZL.37s of 13th squadron, modified to carry a pair of torpedoes each, were already on their attack runs. A single torpedo had hit Vittorio Veneto, two more hit Fiume leaving her sinking. Campioni had been forced to slow down to pick up survivors from the Fiume and as emergency repair were being done on the Veneto. By the time the Italians were going again their speed were down to 20 knots but at least the worst appeared to had passed. And then the night in front of the retreating Italian ships had been lit by the flashes from the 16in guns of Salamis...
Golcuk, March 30, 1941
Rauf Orbay was not a happy man. He had spent two decades painstakingly rebuilding his navy from nothing. Fatih Sultan Mehmet was the strongest and best protected cruiser afloat. Barbaros unique as strong and well protected as the Swedish coastal battleships but much faster than them. Fatih had failed to sink or even seriously damage the heavy cruiser that had engaged her, the damned Greek had used his superior speed to keep the distance to his advantage. Barbaros had at least scored a few hits on Averof but Averof had returned the favour with interest and Barbaros heavily damaged by 9.2in fire had been sunk by a Greek submarine off Tenedos as it limped back to the safety of the straits. And as if this had not been enough he had also lost Turgut Reis and a destroyer. That the Greeks had lost two destroyers themselves and Averof would probably spend some months in repair was small consolation. He had failed to cut off Smyrna while the landings in Lesvos had been a failure without naval support. And from the scattered reports that were coming on the fighting in the south the Italians were not going to venture east again for some time to come...
German intelligence is, as we know, always impeccable.
Not sure what he was expecting engaging Averof, especially with an even better rebuild. She probably spotted them and thought to herself:
If only averof could see his ship.
Now with the sea lines from egypt to greece secure from any threads from the sea Greece is now secure for now and if she holds out enough for american aid to arrive especially American aircraft the Mediterranean sea will be in effect an allied lake thus making the Italian position in Africa unattainable, allied unit to reinforce greece and maybe capturing some greek islands, especially limnos
Now with the sea lines from egypt to greece secure from any threads from the sea Greece is now secure for now and if she holds out enough for american aid to arrive especially American aircraft the Mediterranean sea will be in effect an allied lake thus making the Italian position in Africa unattainable, allied unit to reinforce greece and maybe capturing some greek islands, especially limnos
Uncle George strikes again!
Really loved this update.
Do the British have any aircraft at Crete? Even Blenheims? The naval battle takes place very close to Maleme.
It seems to me that Demestichas circumnavigated Kythera from the north channel and positioned himself in from of the retreating Italians. The Italians need to deal with the 16inch battleship and a night torpedo attack. By the time they have dealt with Demestichas there will be another force in front of them in their line of retreat: the Mediterranean Fleet with 3 battleships, one of which is HMS Warspite.
By dawn whatever is left of the Regia Marina will be far away from Taranto and HMS Illustrious - perhaps with additional aircraft flown from Formitable- will be there to scout and attack at will.
Did somebody say Kantai Kessen?
Really loved this update.
Do the British have any aircraft at Crete? Even Blenheims? The naval battle takes place very close to Maleme.
It seems to me that Demestichas circumnavigated Kythera from the north channel and positioned himself in from of the retreating Italians. The Italians need to deal with the 16inch battleship and a night torpedo attack. By the time they have dealt with Demestichas there will be another force in front of them in their line of retreat: the Mediterranean Fleet with 3 battleships, one of which is HMS Warspite.
By dawn whatever is left of the Regia Marina will be far away from Taranto and HMS Illustrious - perhaps with additional aircraft flown from Formitable- will be there to scout and attack at will.
Did somebody say Kantai Kessen?
Good work on those PZL.37s. Satisfying to see Polish-designed aircraft strike a painful blow to the Axis even now.
I'll note that the intelligence provided the Italians here is the same with OTL. How exactly Abwehr and Luftwaffe managed to lose 2 battleships and a carrier in Alexandria is beyond me. Then that's the same people who thought the local Cretan population would be indifferent or supportive to a German invasion.German intelligence is, as we know, always impeccable.
But what can a 30 year old armoured cruiser do in action?
We are still in spring 1941. Leaving aside what has happened in alt-Matapan the Italian navy will be weakened but not out of the fight and the same holds all the more so for the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica, which can also use Turkish airbases TTL.
Strictly technically speaking when compared to the treaty cruisers Averof had roughly comparable firepower, it had a broadside of 4x9.2n and 4x7.5in and quite better armour than most, her Italian designers had done a stellar job there. Where it was lacked was speed and torpedo defences, both of which would had been dealt with to the extend possible by the Webb proposed modernization. Which has been followed through TTL.
Some few FAA aircraft probably. Plus some HAF Ansons and Fairey IIIFs. But the allied air forces are engaged to what amounts to a fight for their lives in the mainland, one that the allied armies fighting there depend upon. Leaving aircraft in Crete that are useful further north is a luxury that cannot be afforded.
More or less. Demestichas had the options of either trying to join his squadron with Cunningham's or the riskier trying to slip behind the Italians. That's the same man who in 1935 captured the Greek navy with 30 men and sailed it off to Crete never-mind his earlier track record. What are the chances he'd be taking the safe approach?
With the morning the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica will be also showing up. But when all is said and done if the British exchanged ships one for one it is still likely to the British advantage particularly with 4 more Free French and Greek advantages available TTL.
The Turkish navy still has a pocket battleship, a light cruiser and 11 destroyers plus an attached Italian squadron of 2 Spica class torpedo boats and several MAS boats. As well as a respectable submarine force. It's problem is that it cannot easily replace losses, it can locally build MAS boats maybe...
TTL PZL.37 entered service early enough for the Greeks and Yugoslavs to actually place orders and licences. But Cythera is probably its swan song. The Greeks cannot build it in large number and with US lend lease around it makes far more sense for the Greeks to concentrate their production to fighters instead of trying to build penny packets of PZL.37s. Of course it is also being built by the Spanish but Spain is neutral...