Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
So it's been a year? Truth to tell wasn't expecting people to be that interested in a Greek victory in Asia Minor TL. After all in 25 years here and in shwi noone had really gone to the trouble.
Thanks everyone!
Well to be honest you are a)a damn good writer b) you actually explain the various differences between otl and itl and c) i love venizelos
Our Turkish friends send their special "Happy Birthday" to this lovely timeline! 
Part 64
Kleisura, Greek-Albanian border, November 7th, 1940
The Italian army hadn't even bothered to wait for the ultimatum to expire, before crossing the border. It didn't really matter, the Greek answer to the ultimatum had been delivered in a single word by Dragoumis "polemoumen" we fight. After pushing over Greek border posts, the lead elements of the Italian 7th army start coming inti contact with dug in Greek defenders.
Adrianople, November 7th, 1940
The Bulgarian 2nd and 3rd armies with slightly over 176,000 men between them had been kept on the Greek-Bulgarian border as their comrades marched on Yugoslavia. On the Greek side the Greek D Corps had slightly fewer than 101,000 men. But the Greeks had been fortifying their border with Bulgaria for the past several years. From Metaxades to the west of Adrianople to Saranta Ekklisies to the east of them 33 concrete forts built to stand up to 220mm artillery doted a line of 140km, with field fortifications and smaller works between them. Further to the west of the Adrianople line, further forts at Echinos and Nymphaion closed the only two passes into Western Thrace. Yet further to the west in Easter Macedonia another set of 11 forts closed the Rupel pass and the Neurokop plateau. Bulgarian artillery opened up on the Greek positions. Greek artillery, returned the favour. The Greeks waited. If the Bulgarians wanted to invade Thrace and Macedonia they'd have to go over the forts first. And pay the price...
Strumica, November 8th, 1940
Baring variations in equipment, the picture to the east of the town would had been entirely familiar, to the fathers of the men in various shades of khaki now enthusiasticaly killing each other back in 1913 and 1918. Several of the officers and longest serving non-coms had even been there in person. Two days before over 199,000 soldiers of the 1st and 4th Bulgarian armies had stormed over the Bulgarian-Yugoslav border just as six Greek divisions, 129,000 rushed north to the aid of their Yugoslav allies, who were doing a fighting retreat against the Italians and the Hungarians, some of the Hungarians at least, over half out of the 25 Hungarian brigades had conveniently found use in occupation duties by now letting their Italian allies do the bleeding. The Bulgarians had been stopped cold at Strumica. Further north they were doing rather better...
Pigadia, Karpathos, November 8th, 1940
The Italian coastal battery, one of three defending the island, opened up. Over a dozen 9.2 and 7.6in shells from Averof came back at the Italian position for its troubles. Lighters start bringing troops ashore from the transports...
Rhodes, November 8th, 1940
Rhodes was better protected than Karpathos with seven coastal batteries including a single one of 210mm guns and a couple of 149mm batteries. Salamis was immune to either and nothing on the island was immune to her artillery. For twenty years the Greeks feared the Dodecanese would be a thorn on their side, threatening communications between European and Asiatic Greece. For twenty years they had been making plans to deal with that. The Greek navy under personal command of admiral Demestichas had sailed out, transports carrying the II infantry and Archipelago divisions, some 35,000 men in total, in tow before the ultimatum had even expired. A sharp destroyer action had mostly destroyed the Regia Marina squadron in the Dodecanese, 4 destroyers and twenty MAS boats which had fought back heroically before the few survivors had run off to the Turkish coast. HAF aircraft had attacked airfields and units of the 50th "Regina" division in the islands, with the population of the islands well over 90% Greek, the Greeks had not had much trouble having accurate intelligence of the defenders. Early November was not exactly the best time for an amphibious operation. But needs must...
South of Kumanovo, November 11th, 1940
The 133th armoured division Littorio had gone from victory to victory for the past two months. One more bunch of Serbs before the carristi and the bersaglieri accompanying them were hardly going to be much of an obstacle, had the Serbs have time to organize and had they not faced revolt within the country things might had been different. But as things were, the Yugoslav army despite fighting hard and often inflicting heavy casualties had never managed to regain its balance. Then a 47mm shot slammed into the lead L6/40 tankette killing it on its tracks. The Greek 1st Armoured brigade had just entered battle.
The Italian army hadn't even bothered to wait for the ultimatum to expire, before crossing the border. It didn't really matter, the Greek answer to the ultimatum had been delivered in a single word by Dragoumis "polemoumen" we fight. After pushing over Greek border posts, the lead elements of the Italian 7th army start coming inti contact with dug in Greek defenders.
Adrianople, November 7th, 1940
The Bulgarian 2nd and 3rd armies with slightly over 176,000 men between them had been kept on the Greek-Bulgarian border as their comrades marched on Yugoslavia. On the Greek side the Greek D Corps had slightly fewer than 101,000 men. But the Greeks had been fortifying their border with Bulgaria for the past several years. From Metaxades to the west of Adrianople to Saranta Ekklisies to the east of them 33 concrete forts built to stand up to 220mm artillery doted a line of 140km, with field fortifications and smaller works between them. Further to the west of the Adrianople line, further forts at Echinos and Nymphaion closed the only two passes into Western Thrace. Yet further to the west in Easter Macedonia another set of 11 forts closed the Rupel pass and the Neurokop plateau. Bulgarian artillery opened up on the Greek positions. Greek artillery, returned the favour. The Greeks waited. If the Bulgarians wanted to invade Thrace and Macedonia they'd have to go over the forts first. And pay the price...
Strumica, November 8th, 1940
Baring variations in equipment, the picture to the east of the town would had been entirely familiar, to the fathers of the men in various shades of khaki now enthusiasticaly killing each other back in 1913 and 1918. Several of the officers and longest serving non-coms had even been there in person. Two days before over 199,000 soldiers of the 1st and 4th Bulgarian armies had stormed over the Bulgarian-Yugoslav border just as six Greek divisions, 129,000 rushed north to the aid of their Yugoslav allies, who were doing a fighting retreat against the Italians and the Hungarians, some of the Hungarians at least, over half out of the 25 Hungarian brigades had conveniently found use in occupation duties by now letting their Italian allies do the bleeding. The Bulgarians had been stopped cold at Strumica. Further north they were doing rather better...
Pigadia, Karpathos, November 8th, 1940
The Italian coastal battery, one of three defending the island, opened up. Over a dozen 9.2 and 7.6in shells from Averof came back at the Italian position for its troubles. Lighters start bringing troops ashore from the transports...
Rhodes, November 8th, 1940
Rhodes was better protected than Karpathos with seven coastal batteries including a single one of 210mm guns and a couple of 149mm batteries. Salamis was immune to either and nothing on the island was immune to her artillery. For twenty years the Greeks feared the Dodecanese would be a thorn on their side, threatening communications between European and Asiatic Greece. For twenty years they had been making plans to deal with that. The Greek navy under personal command of admiral Demestichas had sailed out, transports carrying the II infantry and Archipelago divisions, some 35,000 men in total, in tow before the ultimatum had even expired. A sharp destroyer action had mostly destroyed the Regia Marina squadron in the Dodecanese, 4 destroyers and twenty MAS boats which had fought back heroically before the few survivors had run off to the Turkish coast. HAF aircraft had attacked airfields and units of the 50th "Regina" division in the islands, with the population of the islands well over 90% Greek, the Greeks had not had much trouble having accurate intelligence of the defenders. Early November was not exactly the best time for an amphibious operation. But needs must...
South of Kumanovo, November 11th, 1940
The 133th armoured division Littorio had gone from victory to victory for the past two months. One more bunch of Serbs before the carristi and the bersaglieri accompanying them were hardly going to be much of an obstacle, had the Serbs have time to organize and had they not faced revolt within the country things might had been different. But as things were, the Yugoslav army despite fighting hard and often inflicting heavy casualties had never managed to regain its balance. Then a 47mm shot slammed into the lead L6/40 tankette killing it on its tracks. The Greek 1st Armoured brigade had just entered battle.
The Greeks are just south of Kumanovo? I'm impressed, I didn't expect them to get that far North. And now we will have an Italian-Greek armoured battle!
@Lascaris Concerning the naval battle in Rhodes, were there any ships sunk on the Greek side?
What aid can the British send to the Greeks? Some RAF squadrons perhaps? In addition to a daring air raid in Taranto...
I am curious about the Turkish reaction...
@Lascaris Concerning the naval battle in Rhodes, were there any ships sunk on the Greek side?
What aid can the British send to the Greeks? Some RAF squadrons perhaps? In addition to a daring air raid in Taranto...
I am curious about the Turkish reaction...
I mean it's SOMETIMES a good idea when the enemy have no tanks at all but otherwise...
And Greece is officially in the fight! Hopefully they can stabilize the Yugoslavian front and salvage what's left of their armed forces. I doubt the Bulgarians will make much progress against the Greek fortifications either. But when (not if) Turkey and Germany get involved, I can't imagine Greece will hold for very long on her own. Britain and the other allies will need to help her if they want to keep the Balkan front open.
Nice update.
Nice update.
To those who are not familiar with the terrain, the Italians are trying to fight their way uphill through this narrow valley.
It will be a massacre since the Greek Army is established there since 1923 and will have fortified the Aoos Valley.
A few observations here.
The Bulgarians do not have the heavy artillery to breach the line. In OTL Germany provided them with a few 220 mm TR mle 1915/1916 in 1942. They will have to either try to brach the line with infantry assaults, something that will be very bloody or focus on Yugoslavia and just screen the forts. This is of major importance, since the Allies in Costantinople have time to evacuate via railroad. Hopefully, part of Thrace's civilian population will have time to move beyond Nestos river.
I also notice that the forts in eastern Macedonia are fewer than in OTL: 11 instead of 19 - I exclude the two forts covering the approaches to western Thrace,
That sounds about right. Horthy was interested only in reversing Trianon. Other than Banat and Transylvania he doesn't have any further interests in the region. Moreover, he doesn't depend on the Italians as he depended on the Germans after 1940.
That was unexpected even though it makes absolute sense!
The Italians lose the Dodecanese as a submarine base to threaten allied communications along with a division and all the hardware they have stored on the islands, from AA guns to airforce and naval base equipment.
Did the Italians lost all 4 of the destroyers?
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So from what i understood Yugoslavia has almost collapsed and has only territory around Skopje and the vardar river basin..in effect without allied support the yugoslav army has to repeat the Macedonia front from ww1 although without Germany the axis could get stuck i the area giving the serbs more time to organise a defence
Nice and quick takeover of Dodecanese! I always thought the Italians had a lot of troops there like almost 50k but I might be wrong on that one. Weird that the Italian submarines are quite but I guess the Greek destroyers are doing their job and keeping them at distance. The Italians can't afford to send a battleship there cause it would be an obvious target for the Royal Navy and the Greek one.
So the front lines in Macedonia are Strumica-Kumanovo-Tetovo ? I feel that the west mountain passes should be closed so no Italian units punch through Albania and compromise the Allied position. I hope that at least 100k Yugoslavs have managed to survive and help the Greeks cause they are heavily outnumbered and outgunned.
I see this as a replacement to the North African front really. Well only if Greece manages to keep itself going till Barbarossa starts because that is inevitable and could never be skipped over for the sake of taking Greece.
Happy Birthday to the TL!!! In one year it has covered 22 years!!! Let us see how this Europe will look like this time around.
So the front lines in Macedonia are Strumica-Kumanovo-Tetovo ? I feel that the west mountain passes should be closed so no Italian units punch through Albania and compromise the Allied position. I hope that at least 100k Yugoslavs have managed to survive and help the Greeks cause they are heavily outnumbered and outgunned.
I see this as a replacement to the North African front really. Well only if Greece manages to keep itself going till Barbarossa starts because that is inevitable and could never be skipped over for the sake of taking Greece.
Happy Birthday to the TL!!! In one year it has covered 22 years!!! Let us see how this Europe will look like this time around.
What can Britain realistically do? That is a very good question. I think the north littoral of eastern Mediterranean is now of greater importance to Britain since the Straits are involved and there is a possibility for an Axis drive to Suez from Turkey.
I think there is greater incentive to give less priority to the East African Campaign. To be honest, the only important target in Italian East Africa is Massawa. The British cannot rapidly advance in Eritrea due to logistics. A possible scenario would have been if the 4th Indian Division is never sent to Sudan but it stays in the Western Desert. In its place, the 11th or 12th African Division is sent to Sudan and the southern advance is butterflied. Having the 4th in Cyrenaica would mean that there is no gap in the advance waiting for the 6th Australian to move forward.
Another thing is the allocation of the ~900 american 75mm guns that arrived in summer. At least the mle 1897 can be sent to the Free French in Syria to help them arm and expand their forces. Likewise, some Royal Engineers can also go to the Mandate to help develop a redoubt at Mount Lebanon and the Alawite Mountains.
Other than that, the British can furnish the 6th Infantry Division with artillery, engineer and signal units early on and have it ready for deployment at e.g. January 1941. They can also send the 1st Cavalry Division to Syria-Lebanon to bolster the French.
Lastly, with more commitments in the Balkans and Levant, the Circus Offensives may be toned down or even abandoned altogether. That would be for the best since it was such a waste of pilots and machines. Instead a number of Hurricane squadrons can be deployed in the Mediterranean Theater from December 1940- January 1941 onwards.
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I wouldn't be THAT impressed. What amounts to a weak French DLM (that's the model the Greeks aspire to at least) has marched about 150 km north in 5 days over friendly territory and with railroad access.The Greeks are just south of Kumanovo? I'm impressed, I didn't expect them to get that far North. And now we will have an Italian-Greek armoured battle!
This... shall be seen.
An armoured vehicle is an armoured vehicle... that said if R35s and Vickers 6t tanks are impossible to handle then maybe you should had been building something better...
There is a certain height bound to be the lynchpin of Greek defences in the area. And on average Greek artillery TTL is roughly 50% stronger than OTL on a per unit basis. Just saying...
The OTL map of the front is pretty close actually... to the starting positions of both sides TTL.
The heaviest artillery in current Bulgarian inventory are 30 150mm howitzers. That's for the whole army, with each corps having on paper a heavy artillery regiment with 8x105mm, 12x150mm and 8x120mm. Which IMO is entirely theoretical with Bulgarian heavy artillery having 98 guns total. This can be put in different terms as "why the hell Papagos wasted that much money on the Bulgarians?"
That's what the 1934-35 fortification commission actually proposed before Papagos got into the game and decided the fortifications could be much improved. Yes they could. Was there a reason to, when the prime threat was Bulgaria? That's a different question...
Why lose good Hungarian boys for Skopje if it can be avoided?
What's the point in having a navy if you don't use it? Post that the Greeks conducted multiple amphibious operations in the 1st Balkan war, more in the 2nd Balkan war, planned landing with 3 divisions in Gallipoli in 1914, offered the same as part of the Dardanelles campaign in 1915, did do a brigade sized landing in Thrace in 1920, did start a large scale landing operation against Thrace again with 3 divisions in 1923, the fleet was underway when Lausanne was signed, and a flanking landing in Thrace remained part of Greek war plans against Turkey into the 1920s. There's a pattern here and a more or less demonstrated capability to sealift and land about 35,000 men, in the Aegean at least. It only makes sense they'd be following the demonstrated pattern here...
If the Dodecanese fall they do.
Francesco Mimbelli and the Lupo certainly make it away...
That's very roughly the Yugoslav front as of November 11th... it's bound to contract.
It was 40,000 men at the time of the armistice in 1943 when it had received quite a bit of reinforcement. It is weaker at this point... and a bit further weaker TTL as Italy also had a garrison in Constantinople.
How the Italians can react is... an interesting question. Frex if the Greek navy is mostly tied in the Dodecanese, which it is, if Italy has the fuel it could try sortying against the Greek coast or to attack Greek communications with Egypt as they tried to do in March 1941.
At the moment it is but in all probability it is not sustainable...
IIRC Glorious is still around, a two-carrier Taranto could be extremely effective.
Glorious is still around true. And it also makes a certain degree of sense to send it to the Mediterranean. Which also opens the question of the Free French fleet. Richelieu and Strasbourg are probably paired with Hood at Scapa Flow at this point the Germans have Gneisenau, Bismarck is more or less worked out, TTL she entered service in May and Tirpitz has just been delivered, just like King George V and Prince of Wales...
Lorraine likely either goes to Alexandria or is based at Gibraltar.