Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Serpent
Banned
I mean, Greece could sponsor the immigration of the Coptic people into Anatolia alternatively I guess? But it would make far more sense for this to happen gradually, like France lost Algeria after a gruesome war. Since the Coptic people would have fought on their side, they'd be obligated to give them a new home, much like France was forced to do for the Harkis.
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Serpent
Banned
I mean, the Coptic people and the Greeks within Egypt could easily fit the roles of Harkis and Pied-Noirs respectively.
Also it would be a gradual process, first ITTL Greece established an occupation zone around Alexandria, seeking to flank the Egyptian forces in the Nile Delta from both sides, the Israeli forces from Sinai/Suez Canal, and the Greek forces from Alexandria, with British, French and maybe even Spanish troops on both fronts, seeking to strangle the Egyptian forces in between them, threatening to cut them off in the southern part of the Nile Delta, by linking both Israeli forces from Sinai/Suez Canal and the Greek forces from Alexandria and once that's done, they would proceed to gradually overcome any opposition in the Nile Delta from the Egyptian forces, before moving in south to deal with the remainder of the Egyptian forces and conclude the conflict that way.
At least that would be the Franco-British strategic planning behind the ITTL Suez intervention in this scenario.
Facts on the ground would prove that the Egyptians would be more than a mere nuisance that can be swiftly crushed, leading to a protracted (guerrilla) conflict, much like the IOTL Algerian War.
Greece would eventually be forced to begin recruiting native allies from any and all sympathetic local populace, to replenish their losses at some point. The only people willing to fight for Greece, apart from the Greeks within Egypt themselves, would be the Coptic people, akin to IOTL Harkis. Once France sees Greece's success with this endeavour on the ground, they'd propably start deploying Lebanese units within Egypt, if not for anything else, then to replenish their losses, if they haven't done that already that is.
Eventually Greece would either have to establish an independent state in their occupation zone, that is assuming Israel gets to keep Sinai, otherwise the "Free State of Alexandria" would not be viable. Or Greece is forced to accommodate a massive influx of loyal refugees (both the Copts and Greeks within Egypt would have fought and bled for Greece by this point) to settle Anatolia with.
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Sure. Had they done so in... say Orly airport what would be the French reaction?
And ofcourse you have to remember it has been only 4 years since the Turkish invasion..I remember my grandfather telling me for a while there was a fear of an Egyptian invasion
I could see the Copts that get to Anatolia be the frontier ppl who farm and have a shit ton of kids and hate anything Muslim expect the Muslims fighting with them.
Also it'd be interesting for the Coptic language to still be taught even if it's to undermine Turkic control over newly acquired land like bithnyia and Caria.
Also it'd be interesting for the Coptic language to still be taught even if it's to undermine Turkic control over newly acquired land like bithnyia and Caria.
Part 114
Magnesia, February 25th, 1943
The burned out ruins of the city where liberated by the Greek VII Infantry division. Twenty three months of occupation, with the city under the fire of Greek guns, followed by two weeks of house to house fighting to drive out the Turkish 24th Infantry had left out very little intact. Over 90% of the city had been destroyed. The Allied advance continued.
Athens, February 28th, 1943
Kostis Palamas, Greece's greatest poet and first and only Nobel laureate, had died the previous night. Despite wartime over 100,000 people had gathered to the first cemetery of Athens, including prime minister Ion Dragoumis a close associate in times past.
Vemork, February 28th, 1943
Explosions wracked the Norsk Hydro plant as Norwegian commandos attacked, destroying the heavy water production facilities and about half a ton of heavy water that was in storage. Allied planners, fearing the progress of the German nuclear weapons program and having very little concrete information on its actual status would breath a collective sigh of relief at the success of the Norwegians. It was only post war that they would learn they needn't have to worry since the German weapons program was hopelessly misguided. The biggest beneficiaries might well have been the German civilians wherever a German nuclear reactor got built as a meltdown would had been almost certain.
Mount Vermion, Greek Macedonia, March 2nd, 1943
Guerrillas belonging to LAS [1], the armed wing of the People's Liberation Front had shown up first and had subsequently grown to include non communists who wanted to fight the occupiers and had no other alternative. But the alternative in the form of the Greek Forces of the Interior had shown up and with that people switching sides. Ares, had not taken kindly to this. When a few days earlier a group of 30 guerrillas had switched over he had enough. LAS forces in Vermion had been ordered to attack and disarm their Nationalist counterparts and treat the men who had switched sides as deserters. But Pavlos Gyparis, the head of the Forces of the Interior in Macedonia, a veteran guerrilla of many wars and Venizelos bodyguard and go to man for special operations, might had been many things but easily intimidated was not one of them. When pushed he'd push back. Athens when news of what was going on in the mountains of Macedonia finally reached it would be anything but amused...
Goa, March 9th, 1943
Four German merchant ships had found refuge to the Portuguese colony at the start of the war. From there they had start reporting the movements of allied ships to German submarines by radio. Once found out by the British something had to be done about it. Portugal was still neutral and with Salazar still fearing a German invasion of the Iberian peninsula keeping a strict neutrality despite the Portuguese-British alliance. This might change as both the general war was starting to tilt towards the Allies and the Spanish civil war towards the Provisional government, by now Ochoa's armies controlled nearly 60% of Spain and slowly but surely grinding down the Falangists, but this was still in the future. Thus 18 men of the Calcutta Light Horse had secretly slipped into Goa's harbour and attacked the German ships. One ship had been sunk. The other three had scuttled themselves fearing capture by the British.
Moscow, March 10th, 1943
Igor Kurchatov was confirmed as head of Laboratory No 2. The Soviets had lost no time after Georgy Flyorov had noticed the previous year the disappearance of publications on nuclear physics from American, British and German scientific journals and alerted Stalin to it. The Soviets could hardly allocate even a fraction of the resources funnelled on its American counterpart but it was still a start.
Adrianople, March 15th, 1943
Alois Brunner had been sent to Thessaloniki back in early February to organize the destruction of the Jewish communities of occupied Greece and Constantinople. That both typically were either Bulgarian or Turkish territory had mattered little. Bulgaria was protecting the Jewish population of "old Bulgaria" but the Jews of the annexed Greek territories, who since 1912 had supported Greece were fair game. As for Constantinople Peker had already conscripted en masse the non-Turkish population into labour battalions and imposed ruinous taxation on them. From there to letting the Germans have their way, particularly in exchange of promises of more arms and military support was not too big a distance. Brunner and his henchmen, had quickly introduced the use of yellow stars for the Jewish population and forced the Jews of Thessaloniki and Constantinople into ghettos. But then the plans to start shipping Thessaloniki's Jewish population to the death camps in Poland had been met with practical difficulties, the single railroad to Thessaloniki was working at full capacity to reinforce the Olympus front and subject to bombing and sabotage, by now the rail yards in Thessaloniki were under constant air attack. Brunner was not to be stopped by such issues. Further east, the railroads into Bulgaria were under less pressure. The Jews of Thrace, nearly 25,000 in the Greek census of 1940 had been rounded up ten days earlier. The first train carrying over2,000 of them to Poland, left Adrianople...
[1] Laikos Apeleutheritikos Stratos - People's Liberation Army.
The burned out ruins of the city where liberated by the Greek VII Infantry division. Twenty three months of occupation, with the city under the fire of Greek guns, followed by two weeks of house to house fighting to drive out the Turkish 24th Infantry had left out very little intact. Over 90% of the city had been destroyed. The Allied advance continued.
Athens, February 28th, 1943
Kostis Palamas, Greece's greatest poet and first and only Nobel laureate, had died the previous night. Despite wartime over 100,000 people had gathered to the first cemetery of Athens, including prime minister Ion Dragoumis a close associate in times past.
Vemork, February 28th, 1943
Explosions wracked the Norsk Hydro plant as Norwegian commandos attacked, destroying the heavy water production facilities and about half a ton of heavy water that was in storage. Allied planners, fearing the progress of the German nuclear weapons program and having very little concrete information on its actual status would breath a collective sigh of relief at the success of the Norwegians. It was only post war that they would learn they needn't have to worry since the German weapons program was hopelessly misguided. The biggest beneficiaries might well have been the German civilians wherever a German nuclear reactor got built as a meltdown would had been almost certain.
Mount Vermion, Greek Macedonia, March 2nd, 1943
Guerrillas belonging to LAS [1], the armed wing of the People's Liberation Front had shown up first and had subsequently grown to include non communists who wanted to fight the occupiers and had no other alternative. But the alternative in the form of the Greek Forces of the Interior had shown up and with that people switching sides. Ares, had not taken kindly to this. When a few days earlier a group of 30 guerrillas had switched over he had enough. LAS forces in Vermion had been ordered to attack and disarm their Nationalist counterparts and treat the men who had switched sides as deserters. But Pavlos Gyparis, the head of the Forces of the Interior in Macedonia, a veteran guerrilla of many wars and Venizelos bodyguard and go to man for special operations, might had been many things but easily intimidated was not one of them. When pushed he'd push back. Athens when news of what was going on in the mountains of Macedonia finally reached it would be anything but amused...
Goa, March 9th, 1943
Four German merchant ships had found refuge to the Portuguese colony at the start of the war. From there they had start reporting the movements of allied ships to German submarines by radio. Once found out by the British something had to be done about it. Portugal was still neutral and with Salazar still fearing a German invasion of the Iberian peninsula keeping a strict neutrality despite the Portuguese-British alliance. This might change as both the general war was starting to tilt towards the Allies and the Spanish civil war towards the Provisional government, by now Ochoa's armies controlled nearly 60% of Spain and slowly but surely grinding down the Falangists, but this was still in the future. Thus 18 men of the Calcutta Light Horse had secretly slipped into Goa's harbour and attacked the German ships. One ship had been sunk. The other three had scuttled themselves fearing capture by the British.
Moscow, March 10th, 1943
Igor Kurchatov was confirmed as head of Laboratory No 2. The Soviets had lost no time after Georgy Flyorov had noticed the previous year the disappearance of publications on nuclear physics from American, British and German scientific journals and alerted Stalin to it. The Soviets could hardly allocate even a fraction of the resources funnelled on its American counterpart but it was still a start.
Adrianople, March 15th, 1943
Alois Brunner had been sent to Thessaloniki back in early February to organize the destruction of the Jewish communities of occupied Greece and Constantinople. That both typically were either Bulgarian or Turkish territory had mattered little. Bulgaria was protecting the Jewish population of "old Bulgaria" but the Jews of the annexed Greek territories, who since 1912 had supported Greece were fair game. As for Constantinople Peker had already conscripted en masse the non-Turkish population into labour battalions and imposed ruinous taxation on them. From there to letting the Germans have their way, particularly in exchange of promises of more arms and military support was not too big a distance. Brunner and his henchmen, had quickly introduced the use of yellow stars for the Jewish population and forced the Jews of Thessaloniki and Constantinople into ghettos. But then the plans to start shipping Thessaloniki's Jewish population to the death camps in Poland had been met with practical difficulties, the single railroad to Thessaloniki was working at full capacity to reinforce the Olympus front and subject to bombing and sabotage, by now the rail yards in Thessaloniki were under constant air attack. Brunner was not to be stopped by such issues. Further east, the railroads into Bulgaria were under less pressure. The Jews of Thrace, nearly 25,000 in the Greek census of 1940 had been rounded up ten days earlier. The first train carrying over2,000 of them to Poland, left Adrianople...
[1] Laikos Apeleutheritikos Stratos - People's Liberation Army.
Considering that the Greek gov and the Greek forces of the interior is present as a resistance force ittl I'd think the LAS would be much weaker espicially when the Greek forces of the interior would fight against the las. So it seems that we won't get a Greek civil war or it'd be a much smaller conflict?
I totally forgot the Minor Asia Magnesia or Manisa for the Turks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manisa . So does that mean that the Allies have broken through the Turkish siege lines?
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Serpent
Banned
Yes and the Greek state could appeal to the common Buzantine legacy that binds Greeks, Armenians and Copts alike against the Turks(/muslims in the case of the Copts), especially in these new frontier areas.
I'd think they'd just link them together over orthodoxy and a common enemy like the Turks trying to murder the rest of them, espicially for the Armenians who want Cilicia and the Copts who just want something like Israel to prevent themselves from getting genocided.
Can't see why they would be though. That whole idea of an alter-Suez war is really off to me. Can't see why the Greeks would bleed for a British and French colonial swan song. I see them more siding with the Egyptians simply due to Greeks being under British colonial yoke for far too long at that point.
Really slow progress in this front. I wonder if that has to do with the hilly terrain or the Turkish stubbornness and throwing their soldiers to the Allies or that this is the moment the Allies start truly break this siege lines and rout the Axis or force them to retreat to new defensive lines way back. Considering the Allies vehicle, armor and air superiority they should break Axis retreat lines and block roads and rails.
I wonder are there any Greeks left behind the siege lines... alive?
Damn the Greeks are back at that civil war sentiment again. Hope it is less blood spilled ITTL and that even Ares is persuaded or even overthrown by his peers so that this madness won't continue.
TBH I think that a lot of these "Coptic proposals" would only work based off of assumed Byzantophilliac nostalgia, rather than the priorities or interests of 20th-century Greece.
It's more that I think Greece will be half forced in by perfidious Albion and Egyptian/Arabic actions who will try to expel their Greek populations.
I think the Turks will collapse when they get pushed off a point. Also probably most Greeks would have been moved into Greece or into Turkey for concentration camps and such.
I'd think ares makedon will fail just because Greece is fighting for its freedom ittl instead of the junta and that Greece has and will have one of the best armies in Europe.
I think the Copts could be moved to Caria and get a small autonomous area and such. In Egypt tho that's not really possible unless the ME is thoroughly fucked.
I have studies Turkish maps of the destruction in the Sakarya campaign and juxtposed them with the axis of marches of the Greek Army. End result. There is very little destruction along the paths of advance of A (Kontoules) and B Corps (Andrew), and a lot along C Corps (Polymenakos). The retreat paths of all three Corps are through a highly devastated region (whic largely overlaps with the axis of advance of C Crops), but that is all three corps, and cannot be attributed to Andrew alone. In all possibility scorched earth tactics were ordered to cover the retreat (Gouveles and Palles both hinted at the use of them ), which by destroying villages meant starvation for the local population, or death by disease as they sought refuge in over-crowded cities.
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