I think Smyrna and Sicily will be the next priorities of the Allies. If that will be the case, then the problem of breaching the Olympus Line will be solved by neither a frontal assault nor by a landing at the rear. A lost Sicily would mean the fall of Mussolini and an armistice. The collapse of the Italians in the Balkans would force the Germans to abandon the line and retreat to the next defensible line, basically the pre-war greco-yugoslav border. The Demir Kapija gorge is a natural defensible position.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Well, if the troops can't break through, they get to enjoy the best beaches in the country!
Through Albania? I think that perhaps, if I don't have my geography wrong, that would be possible to use/follow a similar path to the ancient Via Egnatia...
I agree where the allies will go but I think it is 50/50 if it causes Italy to withdraw from the war. Italy ITTL has had its own successes in Yugoslavia and was winning (slowly) against Greece rather than in OTL being pushed back into Albania. It will mean the Italians have more "prestige" or whatever you want to call it to continue the war.
I think in 1943 the allies will take Sicily, Corsica, and Sardinia and than just funnel units into Greece. I don't see any Italian invasion happening because as in OTL the USA will want to focus on NW Europe and there is already a 2nd front in the soft underbelly; Mainland Greece and Smyrna; that will deprive the UK of OTL reasoning of needing to do "something" on mainland Europe. Besides taking the islands will strategically achieve most of the allies aims as with their entire Western and Southern coastline open to invasion the Italians will need so many garrison troops that their ability to operate outside the Italian peninsula will be sharply curtailed even if they remain in the Axis.
In the event of any invasion of the Italian mainland I would think the Allies would advance more or less on a line from Salerno-Barletta and than just dig in as that would deprive the southern coastline including Taranto and lock the Italian navy and airforce out of the Mediterranean. OTL's campaign working up the boot would be exceedingly unlikely as the troops that would take part will instead find themselves in the Balkans and Anatolia or used to increase the size of TTL Overlord/Dragoon equivalents. Opening a 4th front on top of Greece/Smyrna, Southern France, NW Europe just wouldn't make sense from a strategic standpoint unless Italy capitulates once they are locked up in the boot of Italy. Than of course all bets are off on what the allies do.
If doing a naval assault aiming at Thessaloniki, you are not going to attack Chalkidiki, you'll be hitting this area instead, probably putting your main landings on the eastern shore.
They did conquer Yugoslavia on their own... how much the average Italian cared is a different question. In terms of internal dynamics within the Italian regime I would note Italo Balbo is still alive and in Rome, which for certain is a factor not there in OTL.
I don't know if the only WALLIES Power that has held on the mainland will accept the nation, that just invaded them, to have any coastline on the sea of Marmara... Just have a feeling the Greeks might fight tooth and nail to weaken Turkey's West coast as much as possible at the peace conference.
Your Cakmak here is definitely a bit alternative history. The historical person was a pretty devout mulsim and like Inonu and Karabekir did not drink alcohol (they were not really part of the Cankaya parties. Inonu due to wife, and Cakmak due to work).
That poor British ambassador that complained that Kemal and co where pulling all the time all nighters with heavy drinking and he feared he would need a new liver in His Majesty's service should had been more specific in his reporting about who was and who was not drinking among the Turkish leadership so we avoid such infractions.
That poor British ambassador that complained that Kemal and co where pulling all the time all nighters with heavy drinking and he feared he would need a new liver in His Majesty's service should had been more specific in his reporting about who was and who was not drinking among the Turkish leadership so we avoid such infractions.
Mustafa Kemal himself is famous (some may say infamous) for drinking.
Kazım Karabekir was famously religious/conservative and therefore probably did not drink.
İnönü and Çakmak I am not personally sure about.
But İnönü tends to be disliked by conservatives.
As for the Marshal, looking at his political career and the ideology of the party he founded it seems to me that he was a conservative one alongside his nationalism.
Oh yeah, btw sorry about not responding to you @'ing me about artillery/equipment but I didn't have anything to say (still don't really). Not being a professional historian I don't have many resources with me I am afraid. I could try looking into it, but unsure of I can find stuff just googling.
Whatever rump Turkey ends up looking like, it’s not going to be fun for the Turks. Personally I think you’re map is far to kind to them to actually get agreed upon by the powers involved. The Soviets will surely take a bigger bite out of it the north east, the coast up to and including Trebizond at the very least. Greece is going you take as much as it possibly can too. They’ve no reason to be kind in world. The French might try to set up some Armenian Cilician puppet of some sort, if the mood takes them. Think Lebanon but worse. Kurdistan is likely to be larger as well.
I take no pleasure in saying it, but whatever treaty is signed is likely to be the WW2 equivalent of the treaty of Trianon.
Part 112
Ostrogozhsk, January 13th, 1943
It was the turn of the Hungarian 2nd Army to come under attack. It's commander colonel general Guztav Jany, would react in a manner that Adolf Hitler would approve ordering his units to stay and fight in place and not retreat. Over the course of the next two weeks 2nd Army would be destroyed as a fighting unit suffering 123,000 casualties. In the spring of 1942 the Hungarians had start the campaign in the Eastern front with 209,000 men. 195,000 had been lost by the end of January.
Don river, January 14th, 1943
Five Italian divisions had been encircled back in December and while somehow the Italians had managed to stall the Soviets despite the disparity in in fighting power had been mostly destroyed. Now the Soviets resumed the offensive aiming at the Italian Alpini corps. With both the Hungarians on their left flank and the Italians regular infantry on their right flank having already collapsed it was not odd that the Alpinis would end encircled. They would fight hard, burn their regimental flags lest they fall to enemy hands and actually manage to effect a breakout in January 26th. But out of the three Alpini divisions in the Eastern front only remnants of the Tridentina division would make it out with Julia and Cuneense divisions completely destroyed.
Casablanca, January 14th, 1943
Stalin had refused to join Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, citing the need to direct the ongoing Soviet counteroffensive. Less charitable observers might had cited his paranoia and the Soviet dictator being usually adverse to leaving Soviet soil. Of the minor allied powers not all had managed to secure a presence in the conference. Charles De Gaulle, sole chairman of the French Committee of National Liberation had to be there despite Roosevelt's unfounded antipathy to De Gaulle heading Fighting France and De Gaulle's dislike at France being treated as a second rate power, a combination that would cause no end of clashes behind the scenes during the conference. After all the conference was taking place on French soil. The only other leaders of minor powers to be there where Ion Dragoumis and Michael Collins, the sole unconquered Allied powers in Europe and Poland's Wladislaw Sikorski, the only of the exiled governments with a significant army. Neither of the three would be able to much affect decisions aside from specific issues immediately concerning their countries.
Berlin, January 16th, 1943
RAF bombers attacked the German capital, they would be back again the next day. Hermann Goering would not be a happy man...
Warsaw, January 18th, 1943
The Germans resumed deportation of the Jewish population of Warsaw. But this time there was resistance as fighters of the Jewish Combat Organization and the Jewish Military Union attacked the Germans. It was but the opening act of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and its destruction.
Stalingrad, January 21st, 1943
Two days earlier Georgy Zhukov had been promoted to marshal of the Soviet Union. Now Hitler decided to promote Friedrich Paulus commander of the encircled 6th German army to field marshal as well on the very day the last airfield in German hands was liberated by Soviet forces. His reasoning could be considered somewhat suspect. No German field marshal had ever surrendered ergo by becoming a field marshal neither would Paulus and fight to the death. It remained to be seen how accurate that reasoning would prove when Paulus was actually informed of his promotion nine days later.
Casablanca, January 24th, 1943
The Allied leaders conference came to its end. There had been serious disagreements over the strategy to be followed for the war in Europe with the Americans insisting on a direct invasion of France in 1943 and about everyone else insisting that such an operation would be premature and would have to be postponed for 1944, with the Americans relenting in the end, the Allied focus in Europe would remain in the Mediterranean for 1943. The Americans had agreed to provide sufficient weapons to the French, Irish and Greeks to form additional divisions as soon as shipping allowed it, after all the current US production plan was producing equipment for an additional 16 divisions beyond the current US mobilization. Dragoumis had broached the question of the future status of Constantinople and border adjustments but nothing solid had come out of it for the time being. And Roosevelt at the end of the conference had officially announced an Allied policy of demanding unconditional surrender from Germany, Italy and Japan but notably left the matter open for their minor allies...
Famagusta, January 25th, 1943
The captain of destroyer Kanaris, raised an eyebrow at the British official. "So you are seriously telling me my ship is not allowed enter the port?"
"Orders of the colony's governor sir. There have been disturbances in the previous visits of Greek warships in the colony's ports and the situation is currently delicate, there have been some bombing even. No need to exacerbate things."
"The local Greeks have been enthusiastically welcoming Greek ships every time they called to port and now that the war goes better we don't want you here giving our subjects uppity ideas." the captain translated. But he could do little for now beyond informing his superiors...
It was the turn of the Hungarian 2nd Army to come under attack. It's commander colonel general Guztav Jany, would react in a manner that Adolf Hitler would approve ordering his units to stay and fight in place and not retreat. Over the course of the next two weeks 2nd Army would be destroyed as a fighting unit suffering 123,000 casualties. In the spring of 1942 the Hungarians had start the campaign in the Eastern front with 209,000 men. 195,000 had been lost by the end of January.
Don river, January 14th, 1943
Five Italian divisions had been encircled back in December and while somehow the Italians had managed to stall the Soviets despite the disparity in in fighting power had been mostly destroyed. Now the Soviets resumed the offensive aiming at the Italian Alpini corps. With both the Hungarians on their left flank and the Italians regular infantry on their right flank having already collapsed it was not odd that the Alpinis would end encircled. They would fight hard, burn their regimental flags lest they fall to enemy hands and actually manage to effect a breakout in January 26th. But out of the three Alpini divisions in the Eastern front only remnants of the Tridentina division would make it out with Julia and Cuneense divisions completely destroyed.
Casablanca, January 14th, 1943
Stalin had refused to join Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, citing the need to direct the ongoing Soviet counteroffensive. Less charitable observers might had cited his paranoia and the Soviet dictator being usually adverse to leaving Soviet soil. Of the minor allied powers not all had managed to secure a presence in the conference. Charles De Gaulle, sole chairman of the French Committee of National Liberation had to be there despite Roosevelt's unfounded antipathy to De Gaulle heading Fighting France and De Gaulle's dislike at France being treated as a second rate power, a combination that would cause no end of clashes behind the scenes during the conference. After all the conference was taking place on French soil. The only other leaders of minor powers to be there where Ion Dragoumis and Michael Collins, the sole unconquered Allied powers in Europe and Poland's Wladislaw Sikorski, the only of the exiled governments with a significant army. Neither of the three would be able to much affect decisions aside from specific issues immediately concerning their countries.
Berlin, January 16th, 1943
RAF bombers attacked the German capital, they would be back again the next day. Hermann Goering would not be a happy man...
Warsaw, January 18th, 1943
The Germans resumed deportation of the Jewish population of Warsaw. But this time there was resistance as fighters of the Jewish Combat Organization and the Jewish Military Union attacked the Germans. It was but the opening act of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and its destruction.
Stalingrad, January 21st, 1943
Two days earlier Georgy Zhukov had been promoted to marshal of the Soviet Union. Now Hitler decided to promote Friedrich Paulus commander of the encircled 6th German army to field marshal as well on the very day the last airfield in German hands was liberated by Soviet forces. His reasoning could be considered somewhat suspect. No German field marshal had ever surrendered ergo by becoming a field marshal neither would Paulus and fight to the death. It remained to be seen how accurate that reasoning would prove when Paulus was actually informed of his promotion nine days later.
Casablanca, January 24th, 1943
The Allied leaders conference came to its end. There had been serious disagreements over the strategy to be followed for the war in Europe with the Americans insisting on a direct invasion of France in 1943 and about everyone else insisting that such an operation would be premature and would have to be postponed for 1944, with the Americans relenting in the end, the Allied focus in Europe would remain in the Mediterranean for 1943. The Americans had agreed to provide sufficient weapons to the French, Irish and Greeks to form additional divisions as soon as shipping allowed it, after all the current US production plan was producing equipment for an additional 16 divisions beyond the current US mobilization. Dragoumis had broached the question of the future status of Constantinople and border adjustments but nothing solid had come out of it for the time being. And Roosevelt at the end of the conference had officially announced an Allied policy of demanding unconditional surrender from Germany, Italy and Japan but notably left the matter open for their minor allies...
Famagusta, January 25th, 1943
The captain of destroyer Kanaris, raised an eyebrow at the British official. "So you are seriously telling me my ship is not allowed enter the port?"
"Orders of the colony's governor sir. There have been disturbances in the previous visits of Greek warships in the colony's ports and the situation is currently delicate, there have been some bombing even. No need to exacerbate things."
"The local Greeks have been enthusiastically welcoming Greek ships every time they called to port and now that the war goes better we don't want you here giving our subjects uppity ideas." the captain translated. But he could do little for now beyond informing his superiors...
I'd think at least Caria would be Greek since it was held by the Italians for quite a while.
I agree wholeheartedly the USSR and Greece will agree that Turkey will not be a stable nation afterwards and Trebizond would at least be given to the USSR. Idk if Cilician Armenia would be a thing but if it does it'd be a clusterfuck. Also I'd think Assyria would be a thing and Lebanon may learn Syraic.
Now things are getting interesting. Constantinople being an ambiguous topic is expected (I'd think at the end it'd be more about Greece being there more than anything that sways Constantinople to being Greek territory) but if the WAllies attack there it'd be Greek. I'd think Greece/Ion Dragoumis would choose unconditional surrender of Germany, Italy and Japan because they could basically tell the WAllies that Turkey has to do unconditional surrender too to maximise their gains in Turkey. Cyprus being anti Greek again is interesting and I'd think even if the British want the colony to be theirs at the end the US would crack their whip and tell the British to stay in line and give Cyprus to Greece provided Greece allows US ships to dock there.
Tbf do you think the Greeks will care about that? It's just more ethnic cleansing and one that the Greek gov could claim was Greek before the Turks genocided the Greeks out.
Also the mines.
True that I suppose but why Trebizond to soviets. From what I gather the Pontic Greeks and Armenians there left.