In the aftermath of the Great War, a new Naval Arms race appeared to be brewing. ITTL, after man discussions the Dutch agree to buy ships from Great Britain. 4 Iron Duke class, 3 King George V, 4 Orion class, 1 Erin class battleships. This would allow 4 ships to be based in Europe, 4 in the DEI and another 4 in reserve or modernization. 12 battleships while not the most modern were considered able to resist Japanese expansion plans. The British while having a significant reduction in battle strength knew they would still have 5 Queen Elizabeth, 5 Revenge, 2 Renown 1 Admiral class 15-in Capital ships plus new G3 and N3 classes. Consideration was given to build 3 modified Admiral class giving the RN 24 capital ships with 15-inch or larger guns. Easily matching the USN or IJN plans.
New Dutch Navy
- Thread starter Musketeer513
- Start date
Where is the Netherlands getting money for 12 battleships? Means they'll need to buy/build cruisers and destroyers to screen and all battleships will need refits and rebuilds down the line. In some areas on par with Japanese battleships, but the whole point of the 1034s was they had a speed advantage over all Japanese capital ships par the Kongos.
Why the need for 4 in Europe? Germany is vanquished, Britain and France aren't invading the Netherlands unless they are all on drugs, Unnecessary and expensive. 4 fast, medium sized battleships would probably cost the same and would be a better investment longterm than 12 old dreadnoughts.
Why would the British look to build more Admirals if they've G3s and N3s? Hood's sisters were scrapped by 1919 and building more G3's, while obviously expensive is a far better investment than more Admirals.
Washington presumably thrown out the window ittl?
Ain't gonna happen. The Dutch cannot afford this fleet, by which I mean they can't afford to run it.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
I doubt the RN would even contemplate the sale of the Iron Duke class, given they remained on strength until 1930.
I have trouble accepting the British would sell any capital ships to a power bordering the North Sea, especially one that had been a neutral power favouring the Germans in WW1. The next great confrontation could see your old castoffs being used against you!
Where is the Dutch Navy going to find the crews to man this fleet, and the money to establish bases on the other side of the world to service it? Dry docks, machine shops, ammunition storage (in hot & precipitate climes), training facilities, barracks (assume you don't want to sleep aboard in the NEI in summer) - all the additional costs that very often these ideas ignore. You will need specialised facilities to refurbish worn gun barrel linings - will it be economic to do so for 12 dreadnoughts, probably state than private venture (unless you want Vickers-Armstrong padding their wallets) - and make the shells (you really don't want the RN's 13.5" old ammo).
I have trouble accepting the British would sell any capital ships to a power bordering the North Sea, especially one that had been a neutral power favouring the Germans in WW1. The next great confrontation could see your old castoffs being used against you!
Where is the Dutch Navy going to find the crews to man this fleet, and the money to establish bases on the other side of the world to service it? Dry docks, machine shops, ammunition storage (in hot & precipitate climes), training facilities, barracks (assume you don't want to sleep aboard in the NEI in summer) - all the additional costs that very often these ideas ignore. You will need specialised facilities to refurbish worn gun barrel linings - will it be economic to do so for 12 dreadnoughts, probably state than private venture (unless you want Vickers-Armstrong padding their wallets) - and make the shells (you really don't want the RN's 13.5" old ammo).
Not enough money.
Britain did consider selling Inflexible and Indomitable to Chile, so perhaps one of these for the DEI fleet? But that would probably be pushing it, without cancelling the Java's?
Britain did consider selling Inflexible and Indomitable to Chile, so perhaps one of these for the DEI fleet? But that would probably be pushing it, without cancelling the Java's?
Dutch naval industry is fully capable of producing small units without resorting to buying them abroad.
I don't doubt that, it is just easier and costs less to buy destroyers from countries who are starting to change over from swords to plowshares. That said, I think we could both agree that if the plan is to help maintain the naval industry then you build it in your own yards.
I think if the RNN can afford these older battleships, they can afford to build some modern capital ships of their own. Maybe not 12, but certainly a number that would be better suited to a non-treaty environment.
That said, you might enjoy this thread over on the Own Design board
All the World's Battlecruisers-Battlecruiser Lion in Dutch service
This concept came from a discussion of long ago; I think it dates for the Inside the Web days of the then-Warships1 BB board. Countess Marina and
www.tapatalk.com
and also this AH novel
Far Aft and Faintly | A Historical Fiction Novel
Far Aft and Faintly is a historical novel written by Mark Klimaszekwski. Set in WWII, the Netherlands faces a deep threat to her East Indies Colony.
faraftandfaintly.com
by Mark Klimaszewski
I think one of the main achievements of the treaty system was preserving the viability of recently completed battleships. Iron Duke, Kongo or Nevada are not nearly as out-classed by the likes of Hood, Nagato or Colorado than they are by N3, Tosa or South Dakota BB-49, In a treaty-less Sea of the Giants, they could easily become death traps for their crews. Erin and Benbow, for example are not only outgunned by the likes of Amagi and Akagi (battlecruisers), but they can't even disengage with the speed advantage of the latter. I think the Dutch logic behind the 1047 design was sound; the IJN capital ships will be pre-occupied with the USN and RN, so a ship than can easily defeat heavy cruisers was viable and required (no one being able to anticipate a Pearl Harbor-like scenario at the time). But that was in a Washington and London Treaties environment. Without a treaty system, the Japanese might have capital ships to spare, and without limits, they will likely be superior to second-hand ships sailed by the Dutch. Further, the newer ships are not only going to have bigger guns, but better elevation for those guns. The ex-RN capital ships would have to be taken in hand immediately to get their guns something better than 20 degrees elevation.
I think without a treaty system, the RNN might be better off buying a design like K3 or J3, and building 4 or 5 battlecruisers that can at least escape superior battleships, if not potential enemy battlecruisers.
My thoughts,
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
Would be a good idea as cruiser-killers, but I believe their machinery was just worn out after 4 years hard steaming.
Seem to look like a start of a far fetch but interesting naval TL, how ever in an other dimension.
In OTL Dutch Rear Admiral Rambonnet, and several other senior Dutch naval officers studied the naval actions during WWI. They had also direct insight of the German thoughts and idea's of naval war fare in the very late stages of this war especially the German concepts of submarine war fare.
Rambonnet conclusion was that battle ships were extreme expensive and marginal useful naval units, compared to the much cheaper submarines.
Since his original pre-war plan of 4 to 5 battleships was torpedoed due to the outbrake of war, came up with a new fleet plan in 1920. In this plan the submarine was the primary offensive weapon where destroyers would act as scouts for this submarines and the (light)cruisers acted as escorts for the scouting destroyers.
The plan was unfortunately in 1920 and in a smaller version in 1922 rejected, however during the twenties and thirties the entire Dutch navy was build around this plan.
During the twenties and thirties up to well in 1940 the Dutch navy developed and exercised how to encounter Japanese invasion fleets with submarine divisions ( wolfpacks) were the scouting role of the destroyer was replaced by long range floatplanes in the thirties.
In OTL Dutch Rear Admiral Rambonnet, and several other senior Dutch naval officers studied the naval actions during WWI. They had also direct insight of the German thoughts and idea's of naval war fare in the very late stages of this war especially the German concepts of submarine war fare.
Rambonnet conclusion was that battle ships were extreme expensive and marginal useful naval units, compared to the much cheaper submarines.
Since his original pre-war plan of 4 to 5 battleships was torpedoed due to the outbrake of war, came up with a new fleet plan in 1920. In this plan the submarine was the primary offensive weapon where destroyers would act as scouts for this submarines and the (light)cruisers acted as escorts for the scouting destroyers.
The plan was unfortunately in 1920 and in a smaller version in 1922 rejected, however during the twenties and thirties the entire Dutch navy was build around this plan.
During the twenties and thirties up to well in 1940 the Dutch navy developed and exercised how to encounter Japanese invasion fleets with submarine divisions ( wolfpacks) were the scouting role of the destroyer was replaced by long range floatplanes in the thirties.
Assuming a ASB has given the Dutch the population, naval industry, political will, and most importantly money to sustain a fleet of that size (Really the only way this would work)? You’d be much better off building half that many modern fast battleships using the latest design innovations, Instead of buying old, small, undergunned pre Jutland designs that have been ridden hard through four years of world war and which are liable to be little more then death traps vs a modern Japanese ship. Six would let you maintain 3-4 in the Far East at all times, plus afford (as far as that word can apply in a scenario where an ASB is paying the bill) a proper supporting fleet: heavy and light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, and either a few light carriers or a robust and extensive network of air bases and the naval air arm to use them in the Far East to provide the fleet air cover. Beef up the colonial garrisons while you’re at it with your magic checkbook.
Hell, in a Washington treaty scenario, you could be building 50k ton monsters that would tear any treaty ship apart, at least till France and England strong arm/bribe you into signing the treaties.
Hell, in a Washington treaty scenario, you could be building 50k ton monsters that would tear any treaty ship apart, at least till France and England strong arm/bribe you into signing the treaties.