Map Thread XV

[Chörnyj Orel]

These days, I overthought my AZ UGORI VILÁG -TL and thought what if there was an Ugric seizure of the Balkan peninsula, and (as in the named TL already) southern half of OTL Ukraine plus the Ugrization of the Sabir lands.

Notes:
- Hungarians and Székelyans became lingually more different than in OTL. Their difference is maybe as strong as the one between German and Dutch, maybe a small little bit more.
There are no Romanians in this TL. Both peoples were always very, very friendly to each other. Both nations, but especially Hungary, got really good moderator roles in conflicts and serious questions between German states and Poland.
- Other than in OTL, there are three branches of Ugric in this TL: Old Magyar, Obugrian and as the third one Old Bosonian, which is just named after the Bosonians, who named their tribe after the originally Illyrian name of the region, where they settled. Their ancient self-titled name is unknown. Linguists found out, that (Old) Bosonian is more influenced by Samoyedic than the other two Ugric branches. Bosonian is significantly influenced by Old South Slavic. It is the Ugric language with the highest Slavic influenced (more than OTL Hungarian). Linguists argue, if Bosonian is an Ugric or a Slavic language. But the thin majority see Bosonic as Ugric.
- Khanty and Mansi did not move south to OTL Turkestan, as I mentioned in my foregoing TL. They moved together with the Ugric tribes southwestwards to Europe. Both Hantian and Mansian, but especially the second one, are regarded as the most conservative Ugric languages, but got Ö- and Ü-vovels from their related neighbours.
- Vulgarian is maybe the most interesting (European) Ugric language. Some Obugrian tribes united with Volga Bulgars and took the (already slavic - as in OTL) Thracian lands and built the nation of the Vulgarians. The Obugrian influence was so heavy, the blend of peoples became one new Obugrian people. But on the other hand this influence was not too heavy, so that Turkic and Slavic influences on the Vulgarian language were strong enough to make it difficult to certainly definy this language, but not as difficult as Bosonian. Plus, the ancient Thracian language has a stronger survival than in OTL Bulgarian.
- The Sabirs were originally a Turkic tribe, that had good relations to early Hungarians (as in OTL) and other Ugric (especially Bosonians) groups, that moved to Europe. They managed to defend the Sabiric territory against other Turkic groups (Azeris). Due to wars and pest during the centuries, many Hungarians, Székelyans and Bosonians fled to the Sabir lands. So, slowly but sure, the Savirian nation, language and culture came to existance. They also successfully defend themselves against islamization, many many times and are kind of exotic in that area, because they are Catholics. The Ugric part of the Savirian language is not more than the Germanic part of OTL English. Very important parts/ influences in their language are Turkic (ancient Sabir mostly), Iranic, Armenian, a bit Georgian/Kartvelian and Latin, plus some loanwords of other Caucasus languages.
- All the Ugric countries never fought significant/ heavy wars against each other. The relations between the Ugric countries and peoples are better than normal.
- None of the Ugric peoples ever could have been islamized, as strong as the Ottomans even tried.

Bonus Note:
You wondered, that Mansia has also the northern half of OTL Albania, or? Well, the early Albanians run over a very weak Greece and formed a Shqipophone "Greek" Kingdom. The Greek language only survived in western Anatolia and on Cyprus.

 

[Beedok]

Pretty predictable though, no way that A-H is going to withstand the might of both Germany and Russia, and once A-H is done, Russia and Germany can focus all their attention on the Western Front (and to a lesser extent, Japan).

Unless it happened pre-Haber process and the French managed to blockade German nitrate imports. Then there's a fighting chance. (Bonus if they get the Ottomans on board and can cut Russia off from nitrate imports. And maybe get Japan involved...)

 

[zalezsky]

The Maghrebi Union was created as a result of the Financial Crisis of 2020. Experts say that in hindsight the financial crisis of the 2020 could have been avoided. But nevertheless The Maghrebi Union has continued to prosper and has become an economic marvel on the world stage. It is made up of the constituent countries of Tunis, Algeria, Morocco, Tarabulus, and Al Sahrawiya.

http://xotaed.deviantart.com/ <- Link To My DeviantArt​

Episode II: The Apprentice becomes the Master

 

[Osk]

Here is the island of Hoenn from a PokéEarth WIP i'm working on:

 

[Nagisaki]

Hopefully, they make it a little safer looking too - last time I was in Philly, I considered taking the extent subway somewhere, and decided against it when I saw it looked like the NY Subway from The Warriors.

As someone who lives near Philly, it's much better than it looks.

 

[skozik]

[ugric snip]

I really love the idea behind this, as well as the execution, though I never want to see the word "Shqipophone" ever again What of the Finns and Estonians and them ITTL?

 

[Ivoshafen]

Bonus Note:
You wondered, that Mansia has also the northern half of OTL Albania, or? Well, the early Albanians run over a very weak Greece and formed a Shqipophone "Greek" Kingdom. The Greek language only survived in western Anatolia and on Cyprus.

I have to say, two easy ways to get me to fall in love with your works, anything with Finno and/or Ugric groups, and have it be heavily linguistically based. Good show, damned good show.

 

[nlspeed]

I love this, always wanted something like that, but nuclear India and evil Gandhi...I never like that part.

Ever thought about doing one without Nuke Happy India?

I'm afraid not; it's what everyone expects.

Besides, India is perhaps the most sensible place for a runaway nation that doesn't need to conquer all of its neighbours (that is to say, Europe would be better, but then there'd hardly be a map if all European nations were gone). India needs to spend some time waiting until it can cut away the jungle, but the fertile grasslands, the few foodplains to the west, and the abundance of resources, make India a powerful place to control. Add to that the production - plains, hills, and again, resources - of Persia, and well, then you get this.

 

[Deleted member 94708]

Ideal subway map

Based on this proposal from 1913. In a just universe, with no NIMBYS or redlining or racist use highways to wall off blacks out of sight and out of mind, this is what Philadelphia's subway system would look like.

Orange: Would have been the spine of the network. Broad Street would be the central avenue of the subway system. The Broad Street line would initially have gone from League Island (now the Navy Yard) up to Olney, and then from there to Cheltenham and Glenside. I took the liberty of extending the line to the Airport, since that would be rational. Similarly rational yet killed IOTL by racist NIMBYS and by budget cuts, is the Roosevelt Boulevard Line. Extending beneath the single worst stretch of road in America, it connects ungrateful Northeasterners whether they like it or not. IN the ATL 1980s Bucks County ponied up the money to extend it to the Neshaminy Mall. Other branches travel beneath Germantown Avenue up to Chestnut Hill and beneath Ridge Avenue to Roxborough
Red: Runs from Darby Township underneath Woodland Avenue, connecting with an enlarged version of the Market-Frankford tunnel at 34th Street. I would use this line. It then runs from Market Street to 2nd Street, then dives underneath the Delaware River and from there underneath Broadway in Camden. Another branch joins the Market-Frankford all the way to Frankford Terminal
Blue: Is the aforementioned Market Frankford line. In this better world, a second branch travels underneath 2nd Streetto Olney, and thence from there to Fox-Chase. Allso at 2nd Street is an additional line that runs under 2nd Street and the waterfront. It then serves the big box stores between Tasket Street and Oregon Avenue before swinging west to join the Orange and Purple lines in heading for the Airport.
Purple: Begins at the central loop in Center City beneath City Hall. It then travels along Locust Street, then under Gray's Ferry Avenue, then under 28th Street and onwards to Island Avenue. This rational system extends it to the Airport as well.
Green: This line travels along Haverford Avenue starting in Overbrook, then runs underneath the Philadelphia Zoo and then along Girard Avenue. It loops south to Center City, and the Northeast to the River Wards. It terminates in the Northeast under the greater part of Torresdale Avenue.
Yellow: The Yellow line connects the Broad Street Tunnel and the Ridge Avenue Tunnel along the Ben Franklin Parkway. There's a big station here underneath the Art Museum.

The Center City Loop runs from Arch to Walnut and from 15th to 19th. The entire loop is connected vi underground footpaths and connections to a more extensive subway-surface trolley line. Connected to the station complex via a pedestrian tunnel is The Gallery at Market East, an underground shopping mall that exists in OTL but is more extensive ITTL. Set in the heart of all this transportation goodness is Suburban Station, with connections to the Regional Rail lines (including ones that run to West Chester and Reading) and the Atlantic City Line.

Unmarked on this map is the fact that South and Vine I-95 dips underground, a-la Boston's Big Dig. In its place, the waterfront is much more developed and there's public parks and retail and residential space.

Under construction in this alt-Philadelphia is a subway underneath Passyunk Avenue, finally giving South Philadelphia a much-needed east-west connection. Ground broke in Spring of 2016, and construction is expected to be completed by 2020. The line is set to open in 2022.


http://imgur.com/a/SwhKJ


Anyone know how to link to imgur or photobucket? It wouldn't met me, and this file is huge.

Nice, but perhaps a little overkill for a city of a million and a half. Also, the extremities of the Manayunk, Chestnut Hill, Fox Chase, and Torresdale lines shown here in the north are not really necessary given that the light rail system which is now called "Regional Rail" has served them since the lines to Trenton, Bethlehem, Norristown, and Reading were originally built.

That said, it would certainly be better than the current clusterf*ck that is Philly mass transit.

 

[AltruisticHedonist]

The Kimberley in question is in Australia.

Oh, It was absorbed into northern territory due to desertification and to appease the increasingly separatist aboriginal population.

 

[Analytical Engine]

You know that WIP map that totally doesn't exist. Well, I totally *haven't* finished it. So this write-up clearly isn't real either.

-------

A map based on Shoshana’s “Rise of the Achaemenid Maritime Empire” TL.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/rise-of-the-achaemenid-maritime-empire-a-persian-food-timeline.413239/

--

In the calendar of another world, it is the mid-3rd century BCE. About two hundred years ago, the Persian fleet slipped past the Athenian one, leading to Persia winning the Greco-Persian War in the second invasion of Greece. One by one, the Greek city states fell into line, incorporated as satrapies of the Empire. Nowadays, though, they are largely loyal subjects of the King of Kings.

OTL Atartaxerxes I (who assassinated his elder brothers in order to ascend to the throne) never became king ITTL. Instead, Xerxes’ first son, Prince Darius became King *Darius II, leading to an alternate line of kings, and a policy of overseas expansionism. The current king is Cyrus II (roughly contemporary with OTL Darius III).

Another butterfly is that the OTL Twenty-Eighth, Twenty-Ninth and Thirtieth dynasties of Egypt don’t occur. There were still several nativist revolts in Egypt ITTL, but they didn’t last long enough for their claimant “Pharaohs” to be counted as dynasties by the official histories (though anti-Persian factions disagree with this). As a result, what in OTL is termed the Twenty-Seventh dynasty is still considered to be the current one, with the title of Pharaoh being held by the current King of Persia. Egypt has a satrap – a distant cousin of the King of Persia – who acts as hereditary governor, which also has authority over Libya.

*

Persia is now the dominant country in the world, known or unknown. Recently it and its Indian allies (Kalinga and Kosala) and vassals have defeated the Kingdom of Nanda (no Mauryan Dynasty ITTL). Eventually, all of northern India will be incorporated as satrapies, increasing Persia’s size by about 40%, and more than doubling its population. It also means that almost the entire world’s Buddhist population during this period exists within the Persian sphere, though whether it will spread faster or slower is another matter…

Aside from its vast continental domains, Persia also controls Sarandib, Yakava and Sukhadvipa (see inset maps). Most of the timeline thus far has taken place on the island of Yakava [Java].

Persia’s policy of empire-building is almost unique in history. Extremely tolerant of other cultures and religions, only the Mongol Empire or the Imperial Chinese really come close. Similarly, Egypt was the only ancient state that was as progressive in terms of women’s rights. However, there are still prejudices, based on status, wealth and class, rather than race or religion.

Persia is also the dominant commercial power east of Sicily. Its merchants trade from as Zanzibar to Dong Son, and even as far as the state of Chu with the aid of the Malay. Now, thanks to a serendipitous discovery, considered as little more than a child’s toy, Persia will have access to a primitive magnetic compass, hundreds of years before the Chinese would develop it IOTL.

Zoroastrianism is the dominant religion of the empire, though there are a plethora of others. There are a number of syncretic faiths developing; whether they spread widely or fall into obscurity, only time will tell.

*

To the southwest lies east Africa.

Meroe, a Nubian kingdom in OTL Sudan, is a Persian vassal. A status it is likely to maintain given issues of logistics and communication – the Upper Nile becomes effectively unnavigable around the six cataracts, whilst portage means having to travel slowly. A system of roads is used to aid this process, but the distance and the desert is still a problem.

The proto-Ethiopian kingdoms of Axum and Damot are trading partners of Persia, and will likely become vassals, or even satrapies, in future.

Along the coast, the Cushite tribes also trade with Persia. The islands of Zanzibar, Penda and Mafia are used as trade entrepôts, and will eventually form the basis of a colony in Zanj (the Persian name for east Africa). The spread of Bantu peoples into east Africa may never happen ITTL, or at least to the same degree.

*

To the west lies Europe. Italy is still divided into numerous city states, Etruscan, Latin and Greek, along with the Samnites and Veneti.

In the south, several Greek states have allied themselves with Carthage, to protect themselves from the encroaching Gauls. Several central Italian cities have already been sacked, including Rome. Etruria has been spared the worst of it, so far, but they too are on the menu for raiding; the various Etruscan cities are divided on whether they should ally with nearby, but small Massalia or, distant, but powerful Carthage. It is unlikely that any significant polity will emerge in the Italian Peninsula any time soon – those cities that are left are too evenly matched to conquer each other, and too wary of each other’s future ambitions to form anything more than an alliance of convenience. But they must decide soon, or their futures will be imposed upon them by outsiders.

Carthage itself is updating its navy, in order to keep up with Persia. It may dominate trade west of Sicily, but it doesn’t have the population to compete militarily. Its vassals include Syracuse, Numidia, Mauritania and numerous Iberian peoples. The Celtiberian tribes in the rest of Iberia are slowly being incorporated into Carthage’s sphere, as are the Devnaint [Dumnonii], due to the tin trade. Perhaps, one day, the Britons (or at least those in the south) will ally with them against the Gauls. Meanwhile, there is scope to expand along the west African coast, and the adjacent islands, effectively without competition. Perhaps a fortunate captain will stumble across South America in the process, and make it home with the news…

The other power in western Europe is Massalia [Marseille] and its dependencies. They too are concerned about the power of Gaul, and have allied themselves with the Ligurians for protection. So far, they have rejected calls to become Carthaginian vassals, though they are increasingly convinced that a defensive alliance may be needed in future.

Despite its power, the Gauls are still divided. There are numerous Gaulish tribes and confederations, which spend as much time fighting each other as they do their neighbours, but this is becoming less and less common – powerful chiefs that are nearly kings are starting the process of turning the bigger tribes into proper states. The Celtic tribes bordering Gaul are wary of their power, and are slowly welding themselves together into proto-states. Gaul looks set to become a great power in its own right, at least so far…

*

To the southeast are the other Indian states.

The northernmost, adjacent to the Persian sphere, mostly speak Indo-Aryan languages. Needless to say, “nervous” doesn’t even begin to describe what most of them are feeling right now, especially with a really, really, really big Persia sitting right there. If only they could stop squabbling amongst themselves for long enough to do anything about it…

In the south, lie the Dravidian-speaking states, ruled by merchant-kings, the most powerful of which (like OTL) are ruled by the Chera, Chola, and Pandya dynasties (the so-called Tamil Kings). Persia’s recent victory over Nanda has unnerved them, but the increase in trade that Persia has brought over the past several decades is not to be sniffed at. On the one hand, each state wants all that lovely, lovely trade money for themselves; on the other hand, that means war, and prolonged war would lead to weakness. And that was something Persepolis would take notice of, especially given the increasing naval presence (totally only hunting pirates, honest) in the region.

The biggest Persian trading post in India is at the city of Gomanta [Goa], capital of the kingdom of the same name. Sitting at the confluence of maritime trade routes from the Middle East, India, the Far East, and (increasingly) from the Chinese states, has made the city and the kingdom rich. In order to keep his vast fortune, the king of Gomanta agreed to become a Persian vassal; the fact that there were a lot of pirates attacking Persian ships around here, with the former king (emphasis on former) doing little about it, had nothing to do with this, I’m sure…

*

To the east are numerous tribes and city states in southeast Asia and southern China.

Prolonged contact with Persia will likely accelerate state-building amongst the Malay, the Dong Son [proto-Vietnamese], the Sa Huyhn [proto-Champa], the Mon and Khmer and Pyu [a Burmese people]. The last two are likely to form their own kingdoms within the next century or so, whilst the rest are potential vassals or subjects for Persia.

The Kingdom of Danywhadi rules most of Arakan, and is the only proper country in OTL Myanmar, and is a Persian trading partner. Close as it is to the Persian sphere, its future is uncertain.

The Vietnamese-speaking Kingdom of Văn Lang is the only other real state in the region. Whether it expands southwards, to assimilate their Dong Son brethren, or northeast, with their ethnic cousins the Yue, in both directions, or even at all, is still uncertain at this time.

In OTL Japan, the Jomon people are slowly being overwhelmed by the *Yayoi, iron-working migrants from the Asian continent. Meanwhile, the Ainu are becoming aware of the danger this poses. (Ok, so these people wouldn’t be called “Jomon” or “Yayoi” ITTL, whilst ATL *Yayoi are broadly similar to the OTL Yayoi.)

There are two Korean states, as IOTL – Gojoeson in the north, and Jin in the south. Currently, they are too evenly matched for one to conquer the other, but they still go to war on occasion.

And then there is China itself. China is the only state that could reasonably challenge Persia for the title of top dog (or elephant as the case may be) overall, not just in trade and naval power.

Or it would be, but the Zhao Dynasty has long since lost control of it. Currently, the Warring States Period is still underway, just as it was IOTL. The vassals are either as, or more powerful than the claimant emperor. Chief amongst these is the state of Chu, which controls much of central China. Currently, the smart money is on them unifying the other states, but that depends on whether another state can rise to challenge them, or if the Zhao can get their act together.

On the other hand, the presence of Persia will change things significantly compared to OTL.

The Yue people haven’t formed a proper state as of yet, but that could change, possibly even within the next few decades. If they unify sufficiently, then OTL China may be permanently divided between north and south, culturally, linguistically and politically.

 

[Analytical Engine]

And this map *certainly* doesn't exist at all.

EDIT: minor tweak.

 

[AltruisticHedonist]

And this map *certainly* doesn't exist at all.

View attachment 332344

This *certainly* isn't awesome!

 

[Lost the game]

Nice, but perhaps a little overkill for a city of a million and a half. Also, the extremities of the Manayunk, Chestnut Hill, Fox Chase, and Torresdale lines shown here in the north are not really necessary given that the light rail system which is now called "Regional Rail" has served them since the lines to Trenton, Bethlehem, Norristown, and Reading were originally built.

That said, it would certainly be better than the current clusterf*ck that is Philly mass transit.

This is before Regional Rail was a thing. In 1913 SEPTA didn't exist and what is now the Regional Rail lines were divided between a few railroads. That being said, Again, construction would have taken up most of the 20s and 30s, when digging subway tunnels was far cheaper. I have a WIP of a Regional Rail map ITTL, and one of the things I decided to do was kill the Fox Chase and both of the Chestnut Hill Lines. TTL's Regional Rail is more focused on connections with Reading, West Chester, Allentown, Bethlehem, and Quakertown, so there'd likely be fewer station actually within the city.

 

[Utgard96]

This is before Regional Rail was a thing. In 1913 SEPTA didn't exist and what is now the Regional Rail lines were divided between a few railroads.

The Pennsylvania and Reading each ran commuter services equivalent to it - the PRR lines terminated at Suburban Station (which was a stub-end station at the time) and the Reading ones at Reading Terminal. However, transfer between these and the city subway would probably have been a great deal more difficult, so some overlap is likely.

Again, construction would have taken up most of the 20s and 30s, when digging subway tunnels was far cheaper.

Still nowhere near as cheap as laying rail lines above ground though - why not just let the subway take over the Fox Chase and one of the Chestnut Hill lines?

 

[Flashman]

Does anyone have a bmunroified basemap of WWI, circa 1917?

 

[FancyHat]

Does anyone have a bmunroified basemap of WWI, circa 1917?

I'm not sure what you mean by

bmunroified

but here's @SRegan 's 1917 map.

 

[Deleted member 94708]

This is before Regional Rail was a thing. In 1913 SEPTA didn't exist and what is now the Regional Rail lines were divided between a few railroads. That being said, Again, construction would have taken up most of the 20s and 30s, when digging subway tunnels was far cheaper. I have a WIP of a Regional Rail map ITTL, and one of the things I decided to do was kill the Fox Chase and both of the Chestnut Hill Lines. TTL's Regional Rail is more focused on connections with Reading, West Chester, Allentown, Bethlehem, and Quakertown, so there'd likely be fewer station actually within the city.

I'm aware, but IIRC the lines which were rolled into SEPTA were all present and working in current form, excepting the Market St link, at the time. They just went a heck of a lot further.

Anyway, you're probably right that had they developed a larger subway system in that era the regional rail system would have evolved differently. The Thorndale line would make it at least as far as West Chester, the Doylestown line to Bethlehem, and there would likely be no need for at least the Chestnut Hill lines and the Fox Chase line.

I do find it difficult to believe that the Norristown line wouldn't render the Manayunk subway line unnecessary, though.

Still cool, though!

 

[Cheer]

Here's an old Worlda of mine. The setting is a far future that has (strangely) not changed all that much. What with nukes and all, border-wise, the world has sort of stagnated. Technologically, too. I didn't put India on the key, because it was pretty obvious how it works. I put the United States only so people didn't get confused with the "British pink." Well, the map text explains the rest, so here it is.

 

[Osk]

Decided to make Hoenn smaller in the world map, though I reckon the prior map works as a closer look at Hoenn. Here is the new Hoenn with the kinda-near Orange Islands. The Sevii Islands are going to be north of the Orange Islands and then it's the Continent where Kanto and Johto are. I'm imagining Sinnoh to be off the coast of the Kanto coast, to the north. I imagine I'll make Sinnoh a similar size to Hoenn.

Here's the old one (also posted above) to compare the change in size between of Hoenn: