Khazarian Survival

[The Sandman]

Anyone have any ideas for the likely effects of Khazaria not being destroyed in the 900s? The existence of a powerful Jewish state in what is now Ukraine and European Russia would probably cause at least a few changes in future events.

 

[Nosb]

Anyone have any ideas for the likely effects of Khazaria not being destroyed in the 900s? The existence of a powerful Jewish state in what is now Ukraine and European Russia would probably cause at least a few changes in future events.

If it did survive past the millennium it would probably become the target of quite a few crusades because of its closeness to the Byzantine, the Russian principalities, and the Christian kingdoms of the Caucasus. If manages to assort itself in the area, withstand any Christian attempts from the west or Muslims from the south it will probably find itself a haven for Jews kicked out of the rest of Europe and the Middle East (i'm thinking post-1st Crusade) then it will surely by destroyed by the Mongols with most of the population to be killed. You may end up with fewer Jews since they'll have been more concentrated in Khazaria with whatever left probably being killed or enslaved by the Russian principalities as the expand into the power vacuum left by the Tartars.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The Byzantines were on good terms with the Khazars, as they had been allies against the Caliphate for centuries. A lasting Khazar state could have created a more favorable situation against the Seljuks, and who knows, maybe the Mongols upon sweeping into Khazaria might also have converted to Judaism.

If it did survive past the millennium it would probably become the target of quite a few crusades because of its closeness to the Byzantine, the Russian principalities, and the Christian kingdoms of the Caucasus. If manages to assort itself in the area, withstand any Christian attempts from the west or Muslims from the south it will probably find itself a haven for Jews kicked out of the rest of Europe and the Middle East (i'm thinking post-1st Crusade) then it will surely by destroyed by the Mongols with most of the population to be killed. You may end up with fewer Jews since they'll have been more concentrated in Khazaria with whatever left probably being killed or enslaved by the Russian principalities as the expand into the power vacuum left by the Tartars.

 

[AMBOMB]

If it did survive past the millennium it would probably become the target of quite a few crusades because of its closeness to the Byzantine, the Russian principalities, and the Christian kingdoms of the Caucasus. If manages to assort itself in the area, withstand any Christian attempts from the west or Muslims from the south it will probably find itself a haven for Jews kicked out of the rest of Europe and the Middle East (i'm thinking post-1st Crusade) then it will surely by destroyed by the Mongols with most of the population to be killed. You may end up with fewer Jews since they'll have been more concentrated in Khazaria with whatever left probably being killed or enslaved by the Russian principalities as the expand into the power vacuum left by the Tartars.

Maybe the Khazars could've taken the Mongols and even if they couldn't, the Mongols only wiped out people who wouldn't submit to them (with the exception of the Xi Xians, who dissed Ghengis Khan.)

 

[MerryPrankster]

A powerful Jewish state in southern Russia will certainly give the Russians incentive NOT to indulge in pogroms.

 

[Paul Spring]

On a related note, I remember reading somewhere that a lot of Ashkenazic Jews (from Jewish communities in central and eastern Europe) have certain genetic markers that are almost unknown among other Semitic and European peoples, but are common among Turkish and Mongol groups. One theory is that after their kingdom was destroyed some of them migrated westward and actually joined existing Jewish communities in Europe, instead of remaining on the steppes and being absorbed by later steppe cultures.

 

[AMBOMB]

On a related note, I remember reading somewhere that a lot of Ashkenazic Jews (from Jewish communities in central and eastern Europe) have certain genetic markers that are almost unknown among other Semitic and European peoples, but are common among Turkish and Mongol groups. One theory is that after their kingdom was destroyed some of them migrated westward and actually joined existing Jewish communities in Europe, instead of remaining on the steppes and being absorbed by later steppe cultures.

I'm sure that's what happened.

 

[Leo Caesius]

That is, in fact, the major thesis of Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe, which was a run away best seller but received mixed views from both Turkologists and scholars of Judaism. Off the top of my head, the major problem with Koestler's thesis was that Judaism was not widespread in Khazaria, it being restricted almost exclusively to the Kaqan and his circle. The exact form of Judaism adopted by the Kaqan, and even the language they spoke, are heavily debated to this day; today most believe that they were Karaites, much as the surviving Turkish-speaking Jewish communities in the territory of the former Soviet Union are to this day (the Karaylar or Karaim, depending on which language you're speaking). The elder members of these communities still speak a form of Kipchak.

Even if we do assume that the entire Khazar nation converted to Judaism, they apparently didn't contribute much to the Jewish gene pool. A study conducted by Professor Antonio Arnaiz-Villena of the Universidad Complutense in Madrid has found that the Jews share many common genes with the non-Jewish population of the Levant (Palestinians, Lebanese, and Syrians) and concluded that the populations must be considered closely related and not genetically distinct. Likewise, studies have shown that disparate Jewish populations, from Lithuania in the north to the Falasha and the Lemba in the south, share remarkable similarities on the genetic level which distinguish them from the surrounding populations.

 

[AMBOMB]

That is, in fact, the major thesis of Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe, which was a run away best seller but received mixed views from both Turkologists and scholars of Judaism. Off the top of my head, the major problem with Koestler's thesis was that Judaism was not widespread in Khazaria, it being restricted almost exclusively to the Kaqan and his circle. The exact form of Judaism adopted by the Kaqan, and even the language they spoke, are heavily debated to this day; today most believe that they were Karaites, much as the surviving Turkish-speaking Jewish communities in the territory of the former Soviet Union are to this day (the Karaylar or Karaim, depending on which language you're speaking). The elder members of these communities still speak a form of Kipchak.

Even if we do assume that the entire Khazar nation converted to Judaism, they apparently didn't contribute much to the Jewish gene pool. A study conducted by Professor Antonio Arnaiz-Villena of the Universidad Complutense in Madrid has found that the Jews share many common genes with the non-Jewish population of the Levant (Palestinians, Lebanese, and Syrians) and concluded that the populations must be considered closely related and not genetically distinct. Likewise, studies have shown that disparate Jewish populations, from Lithuania in the north to the Falasha and the Lemba in the south, share remarkable similarities on the genetic level which distinguish them from the surrounding populations.

According to what I read, Judaism was widespread among the Khazars, which makes sense. The majorities of country's populations have historically adopted the religions of their leaders. Look at the Roman Empire. It didn't become predominantly Christian until after Constantine converted to Christianity. There's really no way to determine the extent of Khazar ancestry among the modern day Jews because there are no more Khazars with whom to compare them. But, I can tell by looking at modern day Ashkenazi Jews that their ancestry is more European than middle eastern.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Well, I don't know what you've been reading, but there are a couple of facts that militate against Judaism being widespread among the Khazars.

First of all, if the entire Khazar nation had converted en masse to Judaism (a historical rarity, even among missionary religions such as Christianity), where did all of the Jews go? Are we to assume that nearly all of them converted to other religions? That's what it would take, if we assume all of the Khazars converted, because there just aren't that many Jews today to support this theory.

Second of all, the one Jewish group that has a somewhat legitimate claim to being descended from the Khazars - the Karaylar - are numerically insignificant and practice a religion which is so different from normative Judaism that they were actually excluded from Russian restrictions against Jews and later the Death Camps. The evidence suggests that the Khazars were Karaites, which brings me back to my first question: where did all these Jews go? There aren't that many Karaites around. Arguing that the Khazars were the source of European and Russian Jewry is a bit like arguing that the Celts were the source of Europe's Protestants, because some Roman Catholics happen to be Celtic, and Roman Catholics and Protestants are both Christian.

Third, if the (numerically more significant) Ashkenazic Jewry of Russia were descended from the Khazars, how did nearly all of them come to speak a dialect of Medieval German, despite the fact that nearly none of them lived under German rule? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to speak some Turkic or Slavic dialect, instead of the utterly alien German language, whose nearest speakers were miles and miles away?

Finally, most of Koestler's primary data on the Khazars (and that of subsequent scholars) comes from Abraham Firkovitch, a lay scholar and historian who traveled the Caucasus collecting information on the Karaites in general and the Khazars in particular. In his quest to prove the Khazar origins of his own sect (the Karaites) he forged many tombstones, inscriptions, and other documents. Thus all of the data about the Khazars is somewhat compromised by Firkovitch's "research."

In any case, I've seen Palestinians who were dead ringers for Jews, and vice versa. In fact, all Levantines have a very "Mediterranean" European look to them. Judging by looks alone is no way of ascertaining someone's genetic makeup.

 

[benedict XVII]

Well, I don't know what you've been reading, but there are a couple of facts that militate against Judaism being widespread among the Khazars.

First of all, if the entire Khazar nation had converted en masse to Judaism (a historical rarity, even among missionary religions such as Christianity), where did all of the Jews go? Are we to assume that nearly all of them converted to other religions? That's what it would take, if we assume all of the Khazars converted, because there just aren't that many Jews today to support this theory.

Second of all, the one Jewish group that has a somewhat legitimate claim to being descended from the Khazars - the Karaylar - are numerically insignificant and practice a religion which is so different from normative Judaism that they were actually excluded from the Death Camps. The evidence suggests that the Khazars were Karaites, which brings me back to my first question: where did all these Jews go? There aren't that many Karaites around. Arguing that the Khazars were the source of European and Russian Jewry is a bit like arguing that the Celts were the source of Protestantism, because some Roman Catholics happen to be Celtic, and Roman Catholics and Protestants are both Christian.

Third, if the (numerically more significant) Ashkenazic Jewry of Russia were descended from the Khazars, how did nearly all of them come to speak a dialect of Medieval German, despite the fact that nearly none of them lived under German rule? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to speak some Turkic or Slavic dialect, instead of the utterly alien German language, whose nearest speakers were miles and miles away?

Finally, most of Koestler's primary data on the Khazars (and that of subsequent scholars) comes from Abraham Firkovitch, a lay scholar and historian who traveled the Caucasus collecting information on the Karaites in general and the Khazars in particular. In his quest to prove the Khazar origins of his own sect (the Karaites) he forged many tombstones, inscriptions, and other documents. Thus all of the data about the Khazars is somewhat compromised by Firkovitch's "research."

In any case, I've seen Palestinians who were dead ringers for Jews, and vice versa. In fact, all Levantines have a very "Mediterranean" European look to them. Judging by looks alone is no way of ascertaining someone's genetic makeup.

And finally, the migration paths of Jews from the Mediterranean basin to first Western, second Eastern Europe are well-known and documented.

 

[Paul Spring]

As far as I know, the theory is that SOME (not all) of the Khazars migrated westward and joined with the Jewish communities of central Europe that evolved into the Ashkenazic Jews. Thus, most modern Ashkenazic Jews have only a small portion of Khazar ancestry, although it is there.

Keep in mind that nomadic peoples like the Khazars weren't nearly as numerous as settled peoples. Even if most Khazars became Jews, their numbers wouldn't have been that large, even if the territory that they controlled was. If Judaism was not that deeply intrenched for the majority of them, then most of them would have lost it as they assimilated with other groups. Perhaps only the more devoted ones migrated west to try and find other Jewish communities.

 

[Leo Caesius]

But keep in mind the point I've made - the one group that survives that has any legitimate claim to being descended from the Khazars is considered as heretical by other Jewish groups. If it's true that they shared their language and religion with the Khazars, then it is very unlikely that they would have intermarried with the Talmudic Jews... about as likely as the Puritans, being expelled from England, settling in, say, France.

If you're just talking about the Khazar upper class here, meaning the Khazar overlords who ruled over a nation comprising various Slavic, Turkic, Iranian, and Caucasian peoples, then what you're arguing basically amounts to the same that I'm arguing - namely that only the Kaqan and his circle (The Khazar upper class) converted, and that the rest of his subjects continued to practice whatever religion they originally practiced. The only difference is that the form of Judaism espoused by the Khazars was non-Talmudic - based solely on the Torah - and that these Jews didn't mix very well with the Jews following the Talmud. That's why I think it's possible that the Karaylar might have some Khazar ancestry but think that the Khazar contribution to Ashkenazic Jewry is quite negligible.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Also, I might add, the Karaites looked south, to Baghdad and Cairo, which were their main intellectual and cultural centers. If there was a mass exodus of Karaites out of the Khazar region, they would probably have ended up settling down with their correligionists in the Islamic world rather than Europe, which, at any rate, was much more tolerant of Jews in this period than any of the European states.

 

[Paul Spring]

But keep in mind the point I've made - the one group that survives that has any legitimate claim to being descended from the Khazars is considered as heretical by other Jewish groups. If it's true that they shared their language and religion with the Khazars, then it is very unlikely that they would have intermarried with the Talmudic Jews... about as likely as the Puritans, being expelled from England, settling in, say, France.

If they felt that they had nowhere else to go, they might have settled in France, along with French Protestants. After all, when French Protestants started to be persecuted under Louis XIV when the edict of Nantes was revoked, many of them fled to the Netherlands, Germany, England, and England's colonies in the New World. That's how you got a guy with the last name of Revere living in Boston.

Likewise, if there was a group of Khazars who were committed Jews, wouldn't they have sought out any Jewish communities they could find, even if they were of a different nationality and tradition?

 

[Leo Caesius]

If they felt that they had nowhere else to go, they might have settled in France, along with French Protestants. After all, when French Protestants started to be persecuted under Louis XIV when the edict of Nantes was revoked, many of them fled to the Netherlands, Germany, England, and England's colonies in the New World. That's how you got a guy with the last name of Revere living in Boston.

Likewise, if there was a group of Khazars who were committed Jews, wouldn't they have sought out any Jewish communities they could find, even if they were of a different nationality and tradition?

Well, like I said, if I were a Jew of any sect during the 11th century, I would have migrated to the Islamic world rather than Middle Europe. Not only did they have correligionists there of their own sect (other Karaites) but the atmosphere was much better for Jews in general.

In any case, you can assume that I meant France after 1685, not before.

 

[Paul Spring]

Well, like I said, if I were a Jew of any sect during the 19th century, I would have migrated to the Islamic world rather than Middle Europe. Not only did they have correligionists there (other Karaites) but the atmosphere was much better for Jews in general.

I believe that the Khazars in their powerful days actually fought a couple of wars against Abbasid armies that were trying to push north through the Caucasus. Like Abdul pointed out in a post below, they were traditional allies of the Byzantines against the Caliphate. There might have been a tradition of bad blood between them and the Islamic world.

Also, I don't think anti-Jewish intolerance became a big deal in central Europe until the time of the first crusade (end of the 11th century). It was pretty tolerant still in the 10th century, though a bit backward.

 

[benedict XVII]

Also, I don't think anti-Jewish intolerance became a big deal in central Europe until the time of the first crusade (end of the 11th century). It was pretty tolerant still in the 10th century, though a bit backward.

Have you read Gregory of Tours (7th century)?

 

[Othniel]

Could the Khazars been liquid enough that (non-hereidary) Jewish population basically became dominated over time by Muslims and/or Christians? It isn't the most dominatining of faiths... and at least some of them are bound to be aborbed.

 

[Leo Caesius]

There might have been a tradition of bad blood between them and the Islamic world.

As opposed to the Christians, who actually did succeed in wiping them off the map?

I'm not sure what the state of affairs were for Jews in the 11th century, although I'm quite sure that I recall reading that Jews enjoyed a far better status in the Cordovan Caliphate than anywhere else in Europe. That doesn't necessarily mean that things were grim elsewhere in Europe, but I'm positive that Jews did not enjoy anything approaching the status they enjoyed under Islamic rule anywhere in Europe. Also, as I've noted, Baghdad was an intellectual capital in this day and age, fueled by groups like the Karaite Jews, Nestorian Christians, and the Sabians of Harran. If I were a Jew contemplating life under Christian rule at the time or life under Muslim rule, there would be no contest.