Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2
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@fester With a simultanious Overlord and Draggon, it seems that the Allies have an huge boost in amphibious capacities from OTL.
I suspect that they can land 4/5 divisions in Normandy and 2/3 in Provence the first day, plus the little landing in Greece. That's at least a 25% boost from OTL where amphibious ships were shifted arround between the 2.
Did the Allies shifted amphibs from the Pacific ? Or is it only the bigger industrial production ?
Note : Since the French Fleet didn't scuttle in November 42 in Toulon, the port will be able to handle far more supplies than OTL, even if Marseille is still the big prize in the South (bigger, better acces to the Rhône Valley, better railroad links).
I suspect that they can land 4/5 divisions in Normandy and 2/3 in Provence the first day, plus the little landing in Greece. That's at least a 25% boost from OTL where amphibious ships were shifted arround between the 2.
Did the Allies shifted amphibs from the Pacific ? Or is it only the bigger industrial production ?
Note : Since the French Fleet didn't scuttle in November 42 in Toulon, the port will be able to handle far more supplies than OTL, even if Marseille is still the big prize in the South (bigger, better acces to the Rhône Valley, better railroad links).
McPherson
Banned
Dragoon, Neptune and Greece all at the same time? That is 100+ more LSTs, 300+ AKAs and almost 500 plus other hulls to sustain. From where did that 2.5 million additional tonnes appear?
I would imagine its from the much better U-boat war and just not needing to rebuild a number of ships means a lot of that material can go to LST'S.
Also not having to rebuild a bunch of army groups and naval warships because of lighter losses all over the place and having more ships in general.
all that extra tonnes would likely add up over 3 - 4 years
Accounting for Amphibious lift
Very good question.
Here is my basic accounting.
Currently the TTL Pacific Fleet amphibious lift capability is a little more than 1 division able to be assault packed and lifted from Hawaii to anywhere of interest to the west. OTL, the US Central Pacific offensive was concurrent with Overlord with 5+ divisions being lifted from various points of the Pacific to the Marianas in June and July 1944. That lift demand has disappeared in this timeline. Shifting ships out of the Pacific to the Atlantic is a notable contribution to the combined Neptune/Anvil capability. This is accounting for a significant portion of the marginal lift needed to run two major assaults in Europe at once.
Secondly, I have been repeatedly canceling ships and freeing up slipways (https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers-volume-2.451883/post-18622391) for more amphibious lift. USS Wisconsin has not had work done on her hull in over a timeline year and Illinois and Kentucky was scrapped in place to free up resources and slips for amphibious assault ship construction. The same applies for the next pair of Alaskas etc.
Third, the earlier defeat of the U-boats has allowed for a shift of resources from repairs (both from battle and storm damage) and replacement merchant ship construction as well as escort construction to increased amphibious lift construction.
Finally, this TTL OVERLORD is slightly different than OTL OVERLORD so shipping demands are skimmed a bit.
I would allocate about 50% of the lift shifting from the Pacific, 20% to new construction due to earlier and more decisive Mahanian victories of the Allied navies, 20% of the incremental lift to defeating the u-boats earlier and 10% to change in the lift demands of OVERLORD. Overall we're looking at just about a million tons of new construction, a scooch more than a million tons of re-positioned shipping and a quarter million tons of reduced demand compared to OTL.
Story 2532
Near Courseulles-sur-Mer, France 0605 May 14, 1944
The naval bombardment ceased. The sun had not quite popped over the horizon, but the light was starting to brighten the morning. The waves were not high, barely overlapping the anti-boat and anti-tank obstacles that were several feet under water during the hide tides while exposed during low tides. Divers had started to clear lanes in the obstacles several hours earlier. They had crept close to the coast in rubber rafts after subchasers and motor torpedo boats had snuck to within a mile of the shore. Cleared lanes without obstacles had been identified with bouy markers. More lanes were about to be cleared as plastic explosives on timers were about to detonate and destroy or deform spikes, crosses, and snares.
Even as little grey bursts of water began to erupt, all fourteen bomber squadrons from 6 Group entered their bomb runs. Anti-aircraft machine guns could, in a rarity, engage with the strategic bombers that had been destroying the Ruhr and the other industrial cities of the Reich as the Canadian bombers flying in support of Canadian assault infantry pushed home their attack at only 4,000 feet. The bombers flew parallel to the beach. In fifteen minutes, the bomb line had moved down the beach from east to west. Most of the misses were either inland or only in the narrow tidal zones. The landing craft waves that had been assembled off-shore were not bothered by near misses or fragments as they began their run into the beach through the newly cleared lanes. Four bombers had crashed west of the beach in the large gap between the two Commonwealth beaches and the two American beaches.
As the bombers left, half a dozen Royal Canadian Navy destroyers slowly moved to shore with their broadsides exposed and gun crews seeking targets from Germans brave enough to begin to fire on the assault waves.
The naval bombardment ceased. The sun had not quite popped over the horizon, but the light was starting to brighten the morning. The waves were not high, barely overlapping the anti-boat and anti-tank obstacles that were several feet under water during the hide tides while exposed during low tides. Divers had started to clear lanes in the obstacles several hours earlier. They had crept close to the coast in rubber rafts after subchasers and motor torpedo boats had snuck to within a mile of the shore. Cleared lanes without obstacles had been identified with bouy markers. More lanes were about to be cleared as plastic explosives on timers were about to detonate and destroy or deform spikes, crosses, and snares.
Even as little grey bursts of water began to erupt, all fourteen bomber squadrons from 6 Group entered their bomb runs. Anti-aircraft machine guns could, in a rarity, engage with the strategic bombers that had been destroying the Ruhr and the other industrial cities of the Reich as the Canadian bombers flying in support of Canadian assault infantry pushed home their attack at only 4,000 feet. The bombers flew parallel to the beach. In fifteen minutes, the bomb line had moved down the beach from east to west. Most of the misses were either inland or only in the narrow tidal zones. The landing craft waves that had been assembled off-shore were not bothered by near misses or fragments as they began their run into the beach through the newly cleared lanes. Four bombers had crashed west of the beach in the large gap between the two Commonwealth beaches and the two American beaches.
As the bombers left, half a dozen Royal Canadian Navy destroyers slowly moved to shore with their broadsides exposed and gun crews seeking targets from Germans brave enough to begin to fire on the assault waves.
Although I retract my statement about HMS MALAYA, I'm pretty sure this HMS VALIANT is a ghost ship since the original one was lost off Benghazi on November 24, 1941.
Keynes' Cruisers
I wonder if the Marines will be working in conjunction with the radar in Hawaii, which is ahead of where it was OTL. If the Marine air units catch the Japanese first wave further out from Hawaii, no matter what this is going to be a big plus for the US. There will be inevitable disruption of...
www.alternatehistory.com
Thank you!Although I retract my statement about HMS MALAYA, I'm pretty sure this HMS VALIANT is a ghost ship since the original one was lost off Benghazi on November 24, 1941.
Keynes' Cruisers
I wonder if the Marines will be working in conjunction with the radar in Hawaii, which is ahead of where it was OTL. If the Marine air units catch the Japanese first wave further out from Hawaii, no matter what this is going to be a big plus for the US. There will be inevitable disruption of...www.alternatehistory.com
So what do the beaches look like in TTL Fester?
Is it still Omaha, Utah, Juno, Gold and Sword or do they have different names and a different amount of landing beaches here?
Also will the beach landings in Southern France get names as well?
Is it still Omaha, Utah, Juno, Gold and Sword or do they have different names and a different amount of landing beaches here?
Also will the beach landings in Southern France get names as well?
Same names --- but landings only at Sword, Juno, Omaha and Utah. The Brits have Sword, Canadians have Juno, and the Americans were assigned Omaha and Utah.
Side note --- the Greek operation in terms of amphibious shipping is well under a brigade and it is extremely short ranged with very limited objectives of sitting on a transportation link without needing to consolidate a beachhead of bring in heavy follow-on forces. Conceptually, it is similar to a tactical paradrop to seize a single key node and wait until relieved. The largest ships involved are LCTs (not LSTs) and LCVPs not AKAs.
Story 2533
Beach Camel, 0700 May 14, 1944
Two steel and concrete reinforced bunkers dominated the eastern edge of the beach. The landing craft that had been queued up in neat ranks and waves were now scattered as the anti-boat guns had scored a pair of kills already. The eastern attack force kept on edging west and the landing craft zigged and zagged even as Coast Guardsmen in small wooden subchasers followed the assault wave to shore. Their single Bofors barked away in four round bursts even as smoke generators masked the assault force. Further out to sea, the battleship Warspite turned towards shore. Her aft guns ceased firing as they were masked and her propellors pushed her forward.
Twelve minutes later, rockets erupted from the landing craft that were empty of men. Lanes were being cleared through sandy minefields. As the first infantrymen steeled their nerve as the barges were running aground and the gates had not tilted forward, the first quartet of fifteen inch shells created massive divots fifty yards long on the two troublesome bunkers. The secondary batteries of the veteran of Jutland commenced firing as well. The lighter shells kept the defenders' heads down while the battlewagon turned again to bring all eight guns to bear in an attempt to destroy trouble.
Two steel and concrete reinforced bunkers dominated the eastern edge of the beach. The landing craft that had been queued up in neat ranks and waves were now scattered as the anti-boat guns had scored a pair of kills already. The eastern attack force kept on edging west and the landing craft zigged and zagged even as Coast Guardsmen in small wooden subchasers followed the assault wave to shore. Their single Bofors barked away in four round bursts even as smoke generators masked the assault force. Further out to sea, the battleship Warspite turned towards shore. Her aft guns ceased firing as they were masked and her propellors pushed her forward.
Twelve minutes later, rockets erupted from the landing craft that were empty of men. Lanes were being cleared through sandy minefields. As the first infantrymen steeled their nerve as the barges were running aground and the gates had not tilted forward, the first quartet of fifteen inch shells created massive divots fifty yards long on the two troublesome bunkers. The secondary batteries of the veteran of Jutland commenced firing as well. The lighter shells kept the defenders' heads down while the battlewagon turned again to bring all eight guns to bear in an attempt to destroy trouble.
Story 2534
Near the entrance to the Inland Sea, 1507 May 14, 1944
The periscope went back down. The skipper had seen everything that he had needed in the one and a half seconds. A sighting report had gone out two hours ago when the first group of warships thundered over his positions. Now an even larger group of even more powerful vessels were coming out of their home ports. The Japanese fleet could not concede the US Pacific Fleet dominion over the littoral domains of the Home Islands. The sonar team almost had to take breaks every few minutes as the noise coming through their headphones was deafening between the carriers and battleships accelerating and the destroyers probing for contacts with active pinging. Overhead, the skipper had seen one float plane scouting for him, and the hydrophones had detected at least two others making low altitude passes over the sea.
Over the next four minutes, the well trained and veteran crew of USS Cavalla adjusted firing solutions and waited. As soon as the skipper was confident that the invisible lines of space, time and movement would most likely intersect in fourteen hundred yards, six torpedoes entered the water. The six fish were spread out on a two degree spread. All were running hot, straight and true within seconds even as the submarine began to seek depth beneath the green water. As she passed one hundred and twenty feet, the first Japanese look-out aboard the Hiyo had spotted the danger. Her screws pushed more water out of the way as more steam was released to her turbines and her captain ordered a turn into the tracks. The ship heeled over and her flight deck came much closer to the water as her waterline quickly sank deeper into the sea and decks which normally were exposed only to the air came closer to the sea.
Two torpedoes passed in front of the carrier. One wandered through both columns in crazy circles without damaging any vessel but causing a few moments of terror as warships almost collided with each other. The other three slammed into the steel that was near her magazines and engine rooms. The ship stopped suddenly and as the rudder straightened out, the holes in the hull were partially lifted out of the water. One torpedo gashed a wound that was still mostly below the waterline, but the majority of the damage was now exposed only to fire and air instead of sea and fire.
Even as the first damage control crews were scrambling to asses the damage to the carrier, two destroyers were running down the torpedo tracks and were looking for anything to depth charge.
The periscope went back down. The skipper had seen everything that he had needed in the one and a half seconds. A sighting report had gone out two hours ago when the first group of warships thundered over his positions. Now an even larger group of even more powerful vessels were coming out of their home ports. The Japanese fleet could not concede the US Pacific Fleet dominion over the littoral domains of the Home Islands. The sonar team almost had to take breaks every few minutes as the noise coming through their headphones was deafening between the carriers and battleships accelerating and the destroyers probing for contacts with active pinging. Overhead, the skipper had seen one float plane scouting for him, and the hydrophones had detected at least two others making low altitude passes over the sea.
Over the next four minutes, the well trained and veteran crew of USS Cavalla adjusted firing solutions and waited. As soon as the skipper was confident that the invisible lines of space, time and movement would most likely intersect in fourteen hundred yards, six torpedoes entered the water. The six fish were spread out on a two degree spread. All were running hot, straight and true within seconds even as the submarine began to seek depth beneath the green water. As she passed one hundred and twenty feet, the first Japanese look-out aboard the Hiyo had spotted the danger. Her screws pushed more water out of the way as more steam was released to her turbines and her captain ordered a turn into the tracks. The ship heeled over and her flight deck came much closer to the water as her waterline quickly sank deeper into the sea and decks which normally were exposed only to the air came closer to the sea.
Two torpedoes passed in front of the carrier. One wandered through both columns in crazy circles without damaging any vessel but causing a few moments of terror as warships almost collided with each other. The other three slammed into the steel that was near her magazines and engine rooms. The ship stopped suddenly and as the rudder straightened out, the holes in the hull were partially lifted out of the water. One torpedo gashed a wound that was still mostly below the waterline, but the majority of the damage was now exposed only to fire and air instead of sea and fire.
Even as the first damage control crews were scrambling to asses the damage to the carrier, two destroyers were running down the torpedo tracks and were looking for anything to depth charge.
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Story 2535
UTAH BEACH 0730, May 14, 1944
Even as the fourth wave of infantry and engineers were entering the surf zone, a dozen small groups of riflemen, engineers and tanks were advancing. Dozens of men were lying wounded in the intertidal zones. Most of the survivors of the first few hellish minutes had managed to scramble forward a few hundred yards. Machine gun pits and fox holes had already been subject to a flurry of grenades, satchel charges, flame throwers and occasionally three inch high explosive shells. Off shore a pair of destroyers had nosed into range where their 20 millimeter guns were now firing general suppression bursts. Anytime the Germans fired, the destroyers were sending Bofor shells back within fifteen to twenty seconds and five inch shells within a minute. The German hardpoints were not maneuvering vertically or horizontally nor could they cause notable harm to the destroyers with only thirty seven or fifty millimeter anti-tank guns facing the beach.
By the time the fourth wave of the 101st Assault Division had made it to shore, the second and third waves were launching their assaults down the causeways while the infantry companies of the first wave were consolidating the beachhead and clearing the last few defensive positions that were still able to enfilade the draws and causeways that the division needed to secure by noon time.
One of the destroyers stayed on station. The other had received orders to move to support OMAHA Beach where the first two waves were pinned down and the situation was getting desperate. Even as she made steam, another group of Flying Fortresses that had originally been allocated to support UTAH, reached their initial point over the church in Masy and began their bomb runs against the harder than expected defenses on the eastern American beach.
Even as the fourth wave of infantry and engineers were entering the surf zone, a dozen small groups of riflemen, engineers and tanks were advancing. Dozens of men were lying wounded in the intertidal zones. Most of the survivors of the first few hellish minutes had managed to scramble forward a few hundred yards. Machine gun pits and fox holes had already been subject to a flurry of grenades, satchel charges, flame throwers and occasionally three inch high explosive shells. Off shore a pair of destroyers had nosed into range where their 20 millimeter guns were now firing general suppression bursts. Anytime the Germans fired, the destroyers were sending Bofor shells back within fifteen to twenty seconds and five inch shells within a minute. The German hardpoints were not maneuvering vertically or horizontally nor could they cause notable harm to the destroyers with only thirty seven or fifty millimeter anti-tank guns facing the beach.
By the time the fourth wave of the 101st Assault Division had made it to shore, the second and third waves were launching their assaults down the causeways while the infantry companies of the first wave were consolidating the beachhead and clearing the last few defensive positions that were still able to enfilade the draws and causeways that the division needed to secure by noon time.
One of the destroyers stayed on station. The other had received orders to move to support OMAHA Beach where the first two waves were pinned down and the situation was getting desperate. Even as she made steam, another group of Flying Fortresses that had originally been allocated to support UTAH, reached their initial point over the church in Masy and began their bomb runs against the harder than expected defenses on the eastern American beach.
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Err, that isn't what he said. The 20mm Oerlikon guns are firing nearly continuously in general support. The 40 mm Bofors and 5"/38 guns are firing in response to any detected hostile fire, hence the reference to "Anytime the Germans fired".
A couple of thoughts, Landing craft construction was primarily on the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. The coastal shipyards that were producing destroyer escorts and similar craft would need to be retooled before they could produce landing craft. I am not sure that the cancellation of the last three Iowa class battleships would free up enough steel to produce the additional landing craft. Also I agree that the earlier victory in the Atlantic would reduce the number of repairs but I have to believe weather related damage and repairs would be the same.
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