If lincoln let the southern states go

This is a multi part question. What if, around 1861 if Lincoln saw how the war would go and after forcing them back into the union that would affect the country having a very loud racist voice from the south that would become a big part in the congress that couldn't be ignored. And a bunch of democratic voters still angry about the war that eventually they may win a majority and the president as 1876 and a string of democratic presidents into the 1880s to the 1900s
So he just let them go and said screw it. How would that had effected the country
would it still had resulted in a war or a very powerful northern union that still dominated the continent but much less racist today

and another part. What if after the civil war, Lincoln had treated the south much more harshly and refused to let them back into the union. Occupied their cities and told them they must learn to treat their black population better and let them vote to get back into the union or they can remain occupied with no voice
and refuse to ever let the democratic party in. If during the war he had them all arrested and and never into national elections
 
Peaceful separation.
I do not think president Lincoln cared about racism. While he may have wanted to free the slaves his main interest was in preserving the union.
I think the effect on the union would be a more centralised Federal government. As for racism, I not sure it would be much different, just because some people in the Union wanted to get rid of slavery did not mean they were not racists.

Civil war.
I am not sure Lincoln had that much interest in African Americans as long as they were not slaves. Racism was so common north and south I do not think it would be practical policy to pursue. The main goal of the reconstruction era was to reunite the country and ensure they were not any future rebellions.
Occupying cities in the south until they treat African Americans better would have those cities under military occupation to the present day.
 
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Peaceful separation.
I do not think cared about racism. While he may have wanted to free the slaves his main interest was in preserving the union.
I think the effect on the union would be a more centralised Federal government. As for racism, I not sure it would be much different, just because some people in the Union wanted to get rid of slavery did not mean they were not racists.

Civil war.
I not sure Lincoln had that much interest in African Americans as long as they were not slaves. Racism was so common north and south I do not think it would be practical policy to pursue. The main goal of the reconstruction era was to reunite the country and ensure they were not any future rebellions.
Occupying cities in the south until they treat African Americans better would have those cities under military occupation to the present day.
I agree but he also wanted them to be citizens and to vote. The south spent the next 100 years doing everything possible to stop them from voting
 
Lincoln is not going to let them go in 1861. Take a look at his letter to Horace Greely.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.
Secession represented an existential threat to the USA, setting a precedent that states could just leave if they didn't like federal policy. It's an exaggeration to say that there was no American identity before the ACW — if there hadn't been, the north would have just let the south secede — but it did greatly strengthen the sense of American identity.

A longer occupation, anti-lynching bills, enforced voting rights might be better, but it still wouldn't be enough to bring about racial equality and there is the issue of maintaining political will. The Republican Party would have to root out corruption or anything that could convincingly be portrayed as corrupt within its own ranks. Or you could have the north become angrier. If Andrew Johnson gets assassinated along with Lincoln, then you make the north angrier at the confederacy while also getting rid of an obstacle to reconstruction.
 
Lincoln is not going to let them go in 1861. Take a look at his letter to Horace Greely.

Secession represented an existential threat to the USA, setting a precedent that states could just leave if they didn't like federal policy. It's an exaggeration to say that there was no American identity before the ACW — if there hadn't been, the north would have just let the south secede — but it did greatly strengthen the sense of American identity.

A longer occupation, anti-lynching bills, enforced voting rights might be better, but it still wouldn't be enough to bring about racial equality and there is the issue of maintaining political will. The Republican Party would have to root out corruption or anything that could convincingly be portrayed as corrupt within its own ranks. Or you could have the north become angrier. If Andrew Johnson gets assassinated along with Lincoln, then you make the north angrier at the confederacy while also getting rid of an obstacle to reconstruction.
I know he was never going to allow the south to go
It's just a what if question
 
I agree but he also wanted them to be citizens and to vote. The south spent the next 100 years doing everything possible to stop them from voting
True.
Being citizens and voting does not stop them from being treated badly by racists.
Many people in America at the time were not citizens and many lived their whole lives in America after arriving from Europe without becoming citizens.
While eliminating racism is a noble goal, I not sure it would be practical to attempt before the 1960s.
 
Lincoln would not do this but I can believe other Republican leaders, or perhaps an ATL reshuffling of the party that holds the Republican party's place, might do it. OTL there were Republican aligned factions suggesting "Go in peace wayward sisters."

My sense of how it works out is that the Confederacy (which strictly speaking need not form as a rival Federal government but I think almost certainly would, perhaps in somewhat different form--I suspect on paper, in terms of its written Constitution, which was nearly identical to the US Constitution OTL, it would be the same, and differ in actually attempting to operate by it rather than be overridden by the war emergency) gets very little beyond the maximal count of secessionist states, and even a more wishy-washy President than Lincoln would make efforts to hold some of the border states. It would be damned awkward to let Missouri slip into the Confederacy for instance; going around it would be hard. As OTL Kentucky might well stay in the Union, and Maryland I think would be held forcibly, as would Delaware (where I am told the slave interest was weak in any case). Thus the Confederacy would border the USA on the Virginia border, all the way round to Tennessee which I guess would go Confederate, thence to Arkansas.

A major question is what happens around the Indian Territory, by this time confined to later Oklahoma. A common trope going back generations is that the Natives there ally with the Confederates. I think that is a bit under-nuanced; some tribes were slave owning and historically OTL did connive with the rebels,but others would not be so inclined--it could well be that the pro-Confederates, with Southern help, overwhelm their opposition and in effect OTL OK is also Confederate. But I don't think the South would manage to seize much territory farther west. Certainly they tried OTL, but they actually did not have all that much impressive success, considering that the Union could spare little manpower or other resources to try to check them--locally raised militias in New Mexico were able to accomplish this remarkably well.

Assuming some kind of Alt-Republican in Washington does adopt a "let them go" policy, it won't apply to any Western territories, and this President would surely be able to recruit enough Unionist-loyal troops to reinforce Santa Fe and make damn sure the Confederates don't seize any of that Territory or California. Not inconceivably, a very clever Confederate policy might make allies of the Mormons and also selected Native peoples--but the trouble with that, aside from the question of how likely the Mormons at least would be to make such an alliance, is that any messing around of this nature is an act of war. Having been conciliatory enough to let the secessionist states go (mostly) there is no political capital in allowing the Confederacy to pirate away anything else. Whether the Confederacy might turn to new conquests in Mexico south of the USA border, or say invade Cuba or Nicaragua or some such, is another matter (FWIW I think they'd tend to overestimate their abilities quite badly--perhaps even so, have enough overwhelming force to prevail, but it would cost them a lot more than they'd arrogantly reckon, initially and trying to hold their conquests long term).

So Oklahoma might be a loss, due mainly to large numbers of Native Americans having ample historical reason to mistrust Washington--but how can they better trust the Confederates? (There is, again, some OTL evidence some would anyway). From a humanistic point of view, I'd hope that this hot spot on the border would lead to the Union adopting a conciliatory and principled policy toward at least some Native groups who demonstrate pro-Union loyalty, and reward them for it. Along those lines, early statehood for New Mexico, to shore it up as a firm doorstop on Confederate designs on any further US territory, along with reinforcement of its military defenses and occupation of Colorado would also be in the cards.

Without the Union making war, it could be as noted there might not be a Confederacy at all, though I certainly think Virginia would seek it as otherwise it is their single state facing most of the most dangerous borders with the Union. The capital might not move to Richmond if there is no war. (I suspect Montgomery would prove somewhat unsatisfactory, due to poor communications, but given the philosophy of strong states and a weak federal governments the secessionists professed, they might like a weak capital just fine.

Texas might not join the Confederacy, and there is some chance it would not even secede--Sam Houston was dead against it for one. But given that the aforementioned attempts to drive a corridor to the Pacific were essentially Texan actions OTL, I fear that secession at any rate would be successful (and if Arkansas secedes as OTL, and Oklahoma can be captured via the help of strong factions among the Native peoples there, then Texas is largely insulated from any direct contact with the Union. Texas could therefore well afford to be independent, assuming no commitment in Washington to retaking all secessionist territory. Vice versa, the factions most in favor of secession probably do cherish expansionist notions of some kind--initially they'd try as OTL to take some Union territory but I think they'd be rebuffed, and the rest of the secessionist states, Virginia especially, would be twisting Texas's arm as hard as they can diplomatically to get them to back off. Whereas if the expansionists resolve not to prod the Union sleeping giant and stay south of US claims, I'd think Texas would want the backing of the other secessionist states in money and manpower for a shared Confederate strike into Mexico or overseas. Might the CSA negotiate a partition deal with Maximillian, aiding his bid for a throne in most of Mexico in exchange for alienating the northernmost tier of states and territories to give the CSA a Pacific port in Sonora? I believe if the CSA is granted this tract, they'd be occupying the zone Juarez fought Maximillian from, or one of them anyway.

The basic reason I think "no war" means the Union keeps all territory not belonging to a secessionist state, barring a portion of Indian Territory perhaps, is that for the CSA to claim any of it would require acts of war. The premise that a Northern Republican government in the USA wants to avoid the terrible cost of the Civil War does not commit that northern government to total pacifism or helplessness. The South presumably also has reservations about the desirability of getting into a knock down fight with the North, and persistent violence on the frontiers risks that.

Vice versa, the USA has no leverage to for instance carve off West Virginia from the now-Confederate state of Virginia. To assist the mountaineers seeking to escape Tidewater dominance in western Virginia's uplands would be an act of war just as much as Texas trying to rip of part or subdue all of New Mexico. It might be possible for the Union to conduct good faith, above board negotiations with the Confederacy and/or Virginia for a peaceful consensual partition--probably not including the full sweep of West Virginia of OTL; the piece that Virginia might be persuaded to give up would probably be mainly the long northward salient, which would have to be annexed to one or the other neighboring state I'd think.

Along those lines, it might prove difficult and politically unpopular to try to hold on to Maryland. Aside from just giving up and letting Maryland join the Confederacy, another option might be to negotiate Maryland becoming a nominally independent republic as a neutralized buffer state, with treaty rights to negotiate trade terms with both the USA and the CSA. Might Kentucky go the same way? Perhaps along with a strip of southern Missouri.

Obviously in that case, and anyway I think, it would be foolish to try to maintain the Union federal capital in Washington DC. For a time it would be necessary to stay there, due to the heavy infrastructural investment in the capital, but this was not nearly as deep as it would become in the 20th century. I would think a new Union capital district should be carved out in the Midwest (the eastern part of it actually, Ohio might be too far east but Chicago would be too peripheral at this date--to put a finger on where I'd want maps and a lot of detailed information about trade volumes over river, canal and railroad as of this date, as well as the input of someone regarding strategic defensibility. Moving it back from the border though seems an obvious necessity.

In these kinds of threads you always get someone asserting that the Union would find loss of control of the lower Mississippi "intolerable." But if so, then the Union must go to war. Tennessee, the state of Mississippi, Arkansas and Louisiana are all secessionist, and only denying them the "right" to secede can result in the Union controlling that river. Given a decision by the Union government to avoid the Civil War, it is a done deal; the CSA owns the lower Mississippi river and the Gulf ports. But it would hardly be in the interest of persons making money off river traffic to close off trade with the North! Had the secession crisis come a generation earlier this would be a tough problem for the Union, and certain pundits of the day OTL asserted that allowing the South to hold it would force the West to join the Confederacy, but between the vested interest southern shippers would have in enticing Yankee trade down and up the river, and the fact that the northern states now can turn to railroads and northern watercourses, sending traffic to the Great Lakes and St Lawrence (or via canal and RR, to the old Atlantic northeast) I don't much credit this threat.

What is more of a threat, long term, is the simple fact of a long land border with another government, along with the fact that the southern confederation is committed to slavery. People argue back and forth about this--I believe southern slavery will die unreasonably hard, because while in the abstract one can argue that "slavery is irrational," that maxim first of all is not absolutely and categorically true--slavery was very very profitable and foundational, not just of the USA but the whole Euro-American system.In any case, the secession was hardly an expression of the uniform will of every southerner--it was rather the pet project of a certain faction, and that faction was deeply intertwined with the slave interest. The current ruling class in all the secessionist states is slavocratic. It may be that over time this order will erode or be forcibly overturned--but that is hardly a prophecy of stable peaceful relations with the CSA!

Will Northern society evolve to keep the peace or to clash violently with the South? I certainly think elements within it will maintain a cry for vigilance and a certain degree of hostility--it may be these elements will not ever prevail, or moderate before they can prevail. One hard dynamic at work is that as long as the South maintains slavery, slaves will seek to escape, and perforce try to cross the border into the North. It is possible that by treaty, the Union will agree to continue hunting down and repatriating fugitive slaves--but actually one of the huge tensions leading to the Republican party forming and dominating northern and western elections was outrage at that very practice.

Even if the ATL Republican president is as conservative or more so than Lincoln on the question of African-American citizenship and whether slavery can be tolerated on any scale, if the US signs a treaty with the CSA agreeing in principle to repatriate slaves, you can bet there will be damn little inclination to actually enforce the US side of it. It would be largely if not entirely a dead letter. The teeth of Fugitive Slave laws prior to secession related to the right of Southern interests to send devoted agents physically into the North to appear at courthouses with warrants for capturing specific individuals which Federal law and court rulings said state and local officials had to honor.

So actually I would expect the Union position to be that secession is a divorce and the Southern whites have zero claim on Union policy, and have no rights to have anyone remanded back to their custody. The major avenue of recourse Southern interests might have is playing on Northern racism, and getting majorities in the North to favor a white-only policy and attempt to ethnically cleanse the North of its already present African American people.

But in the context of Southern secession, I expect that there will be voices raised among "white" Northerners on behalf of the African-American persons among them.

In the context of the CSA merely existing as a potential military threat, there will be a desire to beef up the Federal military, Navy and Army, and African-American refugees stand ready to join these expanded services. Their personal interest in the Union cause would be quite strong and reliable after all. I believe at least some political factions will favor citizenship for AA persons, and value their usefulness, and over time they will integrate deeply into Union society--as many had long done already.

Thus there would be a faction--AA persons and their political allies--who will have serious issues with the CSA. Even if slavery as such collapses fairly soon (as it hardly can do without major political earthquakes, unless it is a managed transition to another form of deep oppression--setting the former slaves up as a subclass of peons with "no rights a white man is bound to respect" still perhaps, or collective state slavery, or private chattel slavery made more useful via massive violations of personal rights and dignity beyond the already terrible facts of US law before the ACW (using drugs or brain surgery, or sophisticated forms of torture along lines of operant conditioning, and so forth) we can be sure the condition of AA persons in the South will be pretty nasty (unless perhaps there is a deeply radical revolution with "whites" as close revolutionary allies). And persons who originated in the South will have unsatisfied interests in safe return being barred to them, and connections with kin and other folk they had known in the South.

In the immediate secession crisis, the rational US policy would be to mend fences with Britain. OTL Republicans often muddied these waters with wild talk of Canadian conquest and so forth, but an administration that wants to avoid violent civil war with the South is hardly going to seek a war with the world's greatest power instead--particularly as the British could assist the Confederates, or anyway the northern war would be a distraction making CSA initiatives on the southwest borders more feasible. The smart thing, having bid for peace, is to keep the peace--with Britain especially. Having shaken off most of the US slave population, the USA is no longer at odds with Britain over abolition. With lower Mississippi access to the Gulf of Mexico under CSA control the USA needs to be sure of good access from the Great Lakes to the sea via the St Lawrence. Coordination of development policy on the northern border is now a major priority.

Given the way US and British interests evolved OTL, I don't think there is any reason to doubt the USA will grow at least as close and perhaps far closer. There is no reason for Britain to aid the Confederacy with any great preference, and the Southrons could easily become obnoxious in the Gulf and Caribbean and Central and South America. Or of course they might instead pursue superior diplomacy than the often brash or rude Yankees, some of whom do persist with the talk about taking Canada by force and a lot of general Anglophobic rhetoric--some traditional 4th of July stuff, some from factions like Irish immigrants on very general principles. I'm just saying here the usual trope about Britain joining with the Confederates at the hip and the USA therefore allying with the Germans or some such is hardly a given nor particularly likely--on a rational basis, the northern Union has more to offer in partnership than the southern one.

Certainly there is no "Trent War" pretext if the USA never fires a shot at the Rebels in the first place.
 
To take the first question, allowing the seceding states to leave was a valid policy for the federal government in 1861, and in fact the Buchanan administration took the position that secession was unconstitutional (though the issue is not covered in the Constitution), but if a state seceded, the federal government could do nothing about it.

Some points to keep in mind are that before the bombardment of Fort Sumter, and Lincoln's call for volunteers to put down the rebellion, only seven states out of the fifteen slave states had seceded. At least a couple of the four that seceded after the call for volunteers had earlier considered and rejected secession. So there was a chance of the Upper South remained in the Union even after the Deep South left. The federal government had a very small army and the American government was much less centralized than at present, it would become more centralized as a result of the war. However, and this is an important point, federal government revenue came from customs revenue, there being no federal income tax (one was introduced during the Civil War and later ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court), and a good deal of that revenue was collected from slave states which imported nearly all their manufactured goods. Fort Sumter became a point of contention because it could be used by the federal government to keep collecting customs revenue. With the growth of manufacturing in the northern states, the customs issue would become less salient because more revenue would come from the north, and the south would purchase more manufactured goods from the north instead of Britain, but in 1860-1 it was a big deal.

Emancipation was a wartime measure, and the Republican program was to get slavery out of federal territories, and not the states, so its reasonable to conclude that to the extent (itself doubtful) that Lincoln wanted a war, it was to avoid setting a precedent for secession and to continue to collect customs revenue, plus to secure navigation on the Mississippi. However, its worth recognizing that the Southern slaveholding class strategy was pretty much insane. Even if secession was a good idea -the Republicans did not favor abolition in the slave states and would not have gotten very far if they had tried and said states were still within the Union- it was imperative that any seceding states avoid doing anything to provoke the rest of the USA and rely on the silence of the constitution on the issue and the lack of any means by the federal government to reconquer the South without first mobilizing, which would have met with opposition, to make secession a fait accompli. Lincoln's contribution was mostly in refusing to negotiate with the Confederacy. I think it would have been possible to negotiate a secession but to make the seceding states pay a good deal of alimony, plus a promise to keep the Mississippi open, and the precedent issue could have been dealt with later by means of a constitutional amendment addressing secession. Another possibility would have been negotiating the states back into the Union, a course of action I am not thrilled with because the settlement would have made it impossible to get rid of slavery in the future, but there was enough interest in this that Congress passed a constitutional amendment on these lines and two states ratified it.

While peaceful secession was possible, there is a POD problem in that the Confederate leadership seems to have wanted a war, and most of the Republican leadership seems to have viewed secession as an existential threat, as did a good many northern Democrats. Maybe Seward, who had the same goals as Lincoln, would have been more flexible as to the strategy. Toombs instead of Davis as CSA president might have taken steps to prevent something like Fort Sumter from happening and convince the federal government to negotiate. Douglas also might have been more flexible, and the fact that he died in 1862 and his running mate was from Georgia throws up a wild card element.

This has been explored in other threads on AH.com, and the general consensus has been that the seven state Confederacy would have become a banana republic, while the rest of the USA would have been fine and later abolish slavery peacefully. Once the USA, Brazil, and Spain abolished slavery, the Confederacy would also have been internationally isolated. Sometime in the twentieth century they experience a revolution, get re-incorporated into the USA, or both.
 

SOAWWIISoldier

Monthly Donor
I need to type faster, Galba Otho Vitelius beat me to it and did much fuller explanation.

I suspect the only states to leave might be those that did so prior to Ft. Sumter. If the forts are turned over peacefully, then what would be trigger Virginia's succession.
 
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To take the second point, the legal position taken by Lincoln was essentially that the southern states never left the Union, but had been taken over by crazy people who waged war on the United States, and once reconstructed and their governments filled with loyalists, they could resume their place in the Union. This became the basis of reconstruction, though the radical wing of the Republican Party tried to get a better deal for the freed slaves and force more social change in the South.

Again, it is possible to envision a different Unionist stance, but it would take a different President than Lincoln, maybe Chase or Stevens. A different stance would be that the Constitution had failed, so during or shortly after the war a new constitutional convention was needed. Therefore a new constitutional convention would be called, and as for the former confederate states, they were territories held by right of conquest, and would have to accept the new constitution to get upgraded as states. This is different from the OTL course, but not that different, since three constitutional amendments were added, and ratification was made a condition for re-admission.

However, this would have extensive butterflies, since the new constitution would address issues other than slavery, citizenship, and equal protection. It might lead to structural changes in the federal government. Ironically, the Confederate Constitution might be a guide here, since it was mostly a copy of the American Constitution, but made a few interesting changes not related to slavery that seem to have been reform ideas current among the political class at the time. Also, if this course was taken, the colonial period and the American War of Independence would be much less important in national mythology, since the Union would be re-founded, not preserved.
 
Being citizens and voting does not stop them from being treated badly by racists.
Many people in America at the time were not citizens and many lived their whole lives in America after arriving from Europe without becoming citizens.
While eliminating racism is a noble goal, I not sure it would be practical to attempt before the 1960s.
We actually didn't do badly, for an excellent start anyway, in the 1860s under Reconstruction.

Since the scenario here is that "Lincoln" (in a deep contradiction of the basic character and values of the man of OTL, so I presume actually Not-Lincoln, some other Republican leader instead) decides to avoid war with the secessionist states and instead recognize their independence, much of what smashed and reversed Reconstruction era gains OTL would not apply here. Vice versa of course the tremendously important Reconstruction Amendments might not be forthcoming at all--but consider that if the many secessionists states are in fact allowed to go, their representation in Congress is logically terminated and the Republicans strongly dominate both the truncated Congress, House and Senate, and the state governments that remain. If there is a positive will to pass these amendments, they almost certainly can pass; there is no need to twist the arms of reluctant Southern states. The question is how reluctant Northern and Western states would be.

It was the Reconstruction amendments actually that
1) defined US citizenship--prior to this it was a quite murky hodgepodge of various state rulings, with it being quite unclear whether US citizenship automatically followed from state citizenship or vice versa;
2) specifically banned discrimination (by governmental law in context though the Equal Protection clause see below extended it to private spheres eventually) on grounds of "race, color, creed or previous condition of servitude;'
3) set the clear standard of universal adult suffrage at least for US House of Representatives franchise--and since the Constitution previously specified all persons granted the right to vote for state lower houses would have the right to vote for US Representatives, it is at least implied that universal adult suffrage (abridged only optionally by conviction of felonies) is the standard for all state government representation as well;
4) applied the Bill of Rights to state governments as well as the Federal Government;
5) mandated equal protection under the law.

So the flip side is that one can imagine no movement to pass any Amendments specifying any one of those things;one might suppose that with the Southern states gone none of them are needed. But wouldn't that have been equally true for the situation after Lee surrendered and the South was occupied?

There are those who indeed suppose Lincoln would not have championed most of these amendments--probably the one abolishing slavery as such, but perhaps not the citizenship definition, or application of Bill of Rights to state government, or Equal Protection clause, or setting the standard to vote for Representatives to be adult male citizenship. But then again, all of these Amendment provisions were entirely consistent with the brand of political thought he expressed, and I don't think we can suppose the Radical Republicans would have been totally silent under his direction; they'd have pushed for this stuff anyway.

Without the war crisis, it is possible these ideas would be floating around as extremist froth. But without the return of the Southern states to the Union I suspect just this sort of radicalism would find room for expression.

Now of course the Reconstruction Amendments are a bunch of pretty words with no power if all levels of US government routinely flaunt them without consequence, and that was the case after the Southern "Redeemers" swept aside much of the concrete work of Reconstruction. Part of what I take issue with with your "it had to wait another century" is that actually during Reconstruction, just about all the real progress I witnessed African Americans making in my own then-very-young lifetime, accomplished so we thought in the 1960s, had already been largely accomplished in the 1860s. Very little of the dramatic improvements we saw in the 1960s were actually new, just revived. (One thing that was new, that perhaps would be too much to hope for in the 1860s, was the Virginia v Loving ruling that struck down anti"miscegenation" laws purporting to ban marriages between races). African Americans voting, and electing officials of their own "race?" Already done in the 1860s.

Since the shock of the new was already past them, why is it inevitable that the Redeemers would triumph and turn the clock back, in flagrant violation of the plain words of the Constitution, and get away with it for a damn century? Suppose there were just one state where African Americans were the majority and controlled enough of the election process that no amount of fraud or terror (short of occupying a region with a literal army) could prevent their votes from prevailing? In fact in the 1860s and '70s there were at least two such states, I believe three--South Carolina, Louisiana and Mississippi. Had African Americans been conceded just one of these three, I think nothing short of a Federal invasion to impose white supremacy could have dislodged their control. (In fact none of these states remained AA majority over the next century, but I have to wonder how much of that was due to the general level of terrorism actually depleting AA people demographically in various ways, plus of course the drain of regional emigration to Northern cities especially during the World Wars--whereas if South Carolina alone stood as the only AA majority state under democratic majority control, many AA migrants would head there instead.

Meanwhile, I find it hard to believe that if white bigots of the 1960s could adapt to a new reality where in theory at least their AA neighbors were supposed to be treated as equals for real, that all of them were totally unable to do this in the 1870s. Quite a few would choose not to of course, but it seems plain to me that there must have been many cases of profitable ventures shared by persons of different "race" in the Reconstruction years, and that AA persons and communities would have some "white" allies down South.

To say that it was inevitable white supremacism would triumph and be permitted to flagrantly violate the plain constitutional law of the land for generations is I think definitely not to say "all white Americans were thinking alike." It is to say that a plainly terroristic regime would strike hard not only at AA people but also at any "white" allies.

It is quite unclear why, if such terror is allowed to go unchallenged for a century, it is suddenly possible at the end of that magic hundred years to shake it off and go forward, and not until that moment.

I think 100 years on was the time when the USA happened to do this, to a limited extent--not that anything shows that it had to be that long. It could have been the 1920s, or the 1890s, or any old time.
 

marktaha

Banned
Take away the.Confederacy - slavery abolished up North earlier. Can foresee repeal of Fugitive Slave Act and asylum for any slave escaping North- which is how I'd have played it. Can imagine a remaining USA of higher tariffs earlier immigration restrictions and Republican domination until 1932. President Blaine rather.than.Cleveland for instance. Post war- crisis in 1960 when Kennedy wins EC majority but.Nixon gets clear majority of popular vote.
 
good deal of that revenue was collected from slave states which imported nearly all their manufactured goods. Fort Sumter became a point of contention because it could be used by the federal government to keep collecting customs revenue
Bullshit. The VAST majority all federal revenue came from the North. In particular some two-thirds came from literally one city, New York. It had the absolute highest amount of traffic, and paid the most in customs taxes. You know who was second? BOSTON. Also not known for being in the south. New Orleans was third.
 
I briefly did a Google Search on the issue. The problem is that there are many authoritative sources (meaning federal government reports) that tariffs provided about 85% of government revenue in 1860, but its hard to get a regional breakdown.

However, a Quora discussion came up where an aerospace engineer named Anthony Holst provided the information that between 1860 and 1861, federal government revenue fell from $65 million per year to $50 million per year. If the $15 million drop in revenue is correct, and I would have to find other sources to verify, then it can be inferred that $15 million in pre-1860 revenue, or about 25%, came from tariffs leveled on the seceding states.

This has become a partisan political discussion in many quarters, due to later claims that the southern states seceded due to tariffs. I happen to think the deep south state seceded due to slavery, and the upper south states over coercion of the deep south states, which were the reasons given at the time, though I think nationalism probably played a role. However, the issue is the role the lost tariff revenue played in the refusal of the federal government to try to negotiate a peaceful secession (which its a matter of record that they didn't, though I think most of the Confederate leadership was determined to provoke a war).

Again, if the $15 million per year figure is correct, a negotiated peaceful secession would probably have involved the seceding states agreeing to pay the United States $15 million per year for a period of time, along with assumption of their share of the federal debt, and freedom of navigation on the Mississippi. That still leaves the precedent of secession being allowed, and the return of slaves fleeing to the United States, which the Confederacy would have been wise not to press, but they were pretty insane at the time.
 
Post war- crisis in 1960 when Kennedy wins EC majority but.Nixon gets clear majority of popular vote.
I'm a fan of herding the butterflies and OTL persons recurring in an ATL long after the POD, but this is--well, clearly an example of the genre (as in Reds! for instance) where it is policy to keep absolutely everyone. It is legitimate AH, I say, but pretty bizarre to take it a whole century down the line like that.

Anyway if we roll the dice on 1960 again, odds are we get a Nixon victory half the time, and usually the PV will be aligned with the EV victor--it always is, except for quite few cases in some of which we have plain historic consensus of fraud. That is specifically 1876 and 1888. Take away the fraud faking the Republican victory in the critical states that year, all authorities agreeing it is plain the Democrat won those states in terms of votes cast actually, and the EV being opposite the PV goes away.

Now we have another thread going or did recently about 1960, and it is a fact it was a weird outlier of a squeaker. The most remarkable thing to me (accepting as I do the fact of reported popular vote, except in Alabama where the voting system used in that year makes it impossible to sort out which candidates the voters actually would individually choose if forced to pick one and one only, as the normal modern system does) is that Kennedy, in (disputed, but I stipulate it) possession of a genuine if minuscule popular vote lead over Nixon, failed to win more states than Nixon. Generally speaking, EV majority lines up with absolute number of states carried--though it plainly doesn't have to.

So, if we can jerry rig with Anti-Butterflies both Nixon and JFK being born and raised essentially the same men (I presume you concur with me about the Union being well able and resolved to hold on to all of California at least) and somehow being in the same positions to run as OTL....

---isn't it clear that both would be running on different platforms, in detail if not broad stroke, and both would pursue different campaign strategies (again, in detail if not in philosophy) and would win or lose relative to OTL in different demographics for a quite fresh roll of the dice?

The whole world is a fresh roll of the dice in fact. We can argue for parallelism, and I often do, but I do think there will be direct consequences from the Union cutting loose of the CSA states (and possibly negotiated buffer nominally independent states, say Maryland and Kentucky). Overall the dominant effect of restoring the Union was that the South gave extra weight to conservatism--which is not me saying "Southerners are all conservative!" Part of the conservative package tends to be authoritarian restrictions on who may vote and otherwise being effectively counted in general political negotiations, and I think the conservative lean of the south has always related to elites being better able to silence grassroots interests. The South appears to lean conservative, and does so in terms of effective power. Which is to say people are more oppressed there, generally speaking.

Therefore, if the Southern politicians are gone and never coming back, the North will veer somewhat leftward of where it went OTL. If one is a conservative, and believes leftist alternatives are wrongheaded and doomed, one would expect some correction back to a "normal" equilibrium along OTL lines as the correct solution to America's problems, but if one thinks there is potential for better ways to the left as I do, then I think this ATL Union will in fact develop them and wind up quite different than OTL, in ways I envision for the better.

That means the role the USA plays in the world at large would be different, as it anyway must be if there is a shadow union on its south pursuing a different course. To be what I think of as humane, I would hope at some point the CSA undergoes a hard change of course, presumably due to major domestic unrest leading perhaps to open revolution, and perhaps to a rocky, painful, lurching reform amounting to incremental (if perhaps in sudden steps) political and cultural revolution--for me it is not negotiable in discussing a better world that African-Americans enjoy a better status, and for that to happen in the CSA, involves quite a lot of dislocation. But then again I believe the reactionary nature of CSA leadership will lead them to shipwreck by and by and good riddance to them. Perhaps by the time this happens the two US federal states are too distinct in constitutions and culture to contemplate a re-merger, but anyway perhaps an ongoing alliance and civil amity comparable to the Union's relationship with Canada I would project as rational, so that there are three republics (well two republics and one nominally monarchial parliamentary regime) perhaps spanning a lot more territory than OTL US plus Canada, all acting in semi-concert.

So if all three are on one side come an ATL WWII, we might have a post war Cold War with presumably Russia running the other side I guess. But the USA, though the largest of three North American powers, would be not so lopsidedly hegemonic.

I can also project no Cold War at all, and a generally peaceful world operating on a better approximation of rule of law and equal justice.

The issues on which ATL Kennedy and Nixon run, the demographic preferences of voter blocs, the world situation shaping their platform, are all likely to be quite different.
 
I briefly did a Google Search on the issue. The problem is that there are many authoritative sources (meaning federal government reports) that tariffs provided about 85% of government revenue in 1860, but its hard to get a regional breakdown.
Between July 1859 and June 1860 the port of New York took in 234 million dollars worth of goods. Of these 203 million were subject to import tarriffs. During this same time period ALL OTHER PORTS in the country took in 128 million. Of those goods, only SEVENTY-SIX million were subject to import tariffs. In other words, New York City alone was providing some 2/3 of all imports on which tariffs were levied.

Look up the annual reports of the Chamber of Commerce of the state of New York. Those records are publicly available.

And this is not some kind of fluke. You look back through the preceeding years and the numbers are very similar.

(which its a matter of record that they didn't, though I think most of the Confederate leadership was determined to provoke a war).
Let's look at actual events preceding the opening of the war:

January 4: The Alabama governor ordered state militia to seize Fort Gaines, Fort Morgan, and Mount Vernon arsenal from federal forces.
January 6: Federal arsenal at Apalachicola Florida is seized.
January 10: Louisiania state militia seize the Federal armory at Baton Rouge.
January 11: Louisiania state militia seize Forts Jackson and Saint Philip.
January 14: Federal fort being constructed at Ship island, Mississippi seized.
January 24: Georgia state militia seize Augusta arsenal.
January 28: Arkansas militia seize federal arsenal at Little Rock and expel federal troops from the state.
March 6: President Davis is authorized to raise an army of 100,000 men for a year.
April 12: South Carolina militia fired on Fort Sumter.
April 15: Only now does LIncoln call for 75,000 volunteers to suppress the rebellion.

To say the Confederate leadership was determined to provoke a war is a massive understatement. It also shows just how much a massive lie the idea that the upper South only seceded because of Lincoln's "provocations" was.
 
Again, if the $15 million per year figure is correct, a negotiated peaceful secession would probably have involved the seceding states agreeing to pay the United States $15 million per year for a period of time, along with assumption of their share of the federal debt, and freedom of navigation on the Mississippi. That still leaves the precedent of secession being allowed, and the return of slaves fleeing to the United States, which the Confederacy would have been wise not to press, but they were pretty insane at the time.
I think if the POD is a different Republican leader determined to keep the peace (not at any price whatsoever, but at any reasonable price) the Union would have to drop all these demands, and the South is just not getting satisfaction on the "principle" of "returning slave property." Both sides would like little codicils and perks like these, but the Union has given way on the big point ("Right" of secession) and South having gained independence has zero leverage to demand the Fugitive Slave stuff. Not quite zero, there were plenty people in the North who didn't want African Americans in their faces at all, who might urge conceding the South this demand (as quid pro quo for something else the Union could not get otherwise, like navigation rights on the lower Mississippi) on grounds of barring immigration to persons of African extraction comprehensively. (As good a "solution" to this problem in bigotry would be to ship the fugitives on north to British North America of course, which would be a stick persons inclined to shake hands on returning fugitives could use to beat the Southern negotiators into offering some condition to make it worth our while. But it is my hunch that no, no Republican government is going to entertain any legal obligation to remand fugitives back to the CSA. Hard no on that. And if Johnny Reb wants to fight over it--as I said I don't think the ATL President would be for peace at any price. The ball is in the Southern court, whether they send an army north across the Mason-Dixon line to attack Union states in the name of getting their escaped slaves back; the President could expect solid consensus backing him on repelling such attacks and retaliating. If the CSA knows what is good for it they will call a truce and get back to realistic dickering, albeit now from a weaker position.

Similarly the USA is not going to get meaningful navigational rights in any absolute sense. There might be pieces of paper saying that, but in this matter the South has the whip hand. Are we expecting the CSA to grant that any river vessel flying a US flag shall be unmolested and uninspected? Then the Union could build a whole fleet of river boats disguised as peaceful commerce vessels, and suddenly toss off the wheat bushels or what have you to free up big guns. No, any agreement US flagged vessels can navigate the river will come with inspection strings attached. On paper it might seem nice, but fundamentally any ship and cargo and complement passing CSA borders on both shores will be subject to CSA law, not US. Realistically it would be the default; a river flowing within a national boundary belongs to that nation, full stop. Any time a serious conflict of interest arises, it will revert to that--again, if the USA is not willing to go to war over its own national integrity, is it willing to go to war over these paper privileges? Perhaps at a later date war is in the cards for much weightier reasons, and the navigational squabble is just a pretext for hawks on one side or both to go to war. But I can't take seriously the idea that such a lost cause as this is the sticking point--and if it is, we get OTL Civil War by a slightly roundabout route, immediately.

The rules are simple. "You go to your side of the room, I stay on my side, and it is none of your damn business what happens on my side and I will let you do as you please on yours." That's the price of peace.
 
In other words, New York City alone was providing some 2/3 of all imports on which tariffs were levied.
Groovy. It doesn't mean that 5 or 10 percent coming from Southern ports was nothing. Certainly not worth the Union going to war over all by itself, but Lincoln OTL was standing firm against secession as a legal impossibility and a terrible thing to let happen, for much more fundamental reasons. With that resolution in mind (in defiance of the OP) it seems perfectly reasonable for the Union to also resolve to hold on to every penny of tariff revenue and more importantly still, deny a cent of it to the criminal secessionist gang.

With the OP in mind, it is ridiculous for the President to swallow the camel of wholesale and permanent secession, and then insanely turn around and choke on the gnat of losing whatever revenues the Southern ports would collect. It is no longer Uncle Sam's business what ships with what cargoes make port at Charleston or Hampton or Mobile or New Orleans. Great or small, the USA has zero claim on stuff landing at ports the United States no longer claims as US soil. If the figures were reversed and worse and ports in the north only got a quarter or fifth of the revenues--tough, that just means Uncle Sam has to develop some new taxes--the Constitutional head tax say, or pass an amendment to levy an income tax or wealth tax. (The Articles of Confederation provided that the Continental Congress, presumably through some appointed committee, would assess the net worth of the various states and pass the basket around with each state legally obliged to pay a share based on its fraction of total US assessed wealth. Such a state wealth tax, with each state left to its own devices to raise its share, would be no more Constitutional than the personal income tax, but at least has precedent, and so we might see that as the ATL solution).

Of course the fact northern port revenues were the lion's share related directly to why the North was not composed of slave states and why the Southern secessionists felt they had to break away before they became a powerless appendage of a unified nation driven by Northern agendas. The North was where most profitable industry was; the exceptional big share of it in the form of cotton plantations and other slave enterprises was a sector of business where the nominal producers, the plantation owners, were weak at keeping their hands on most of the revenue. That very largely went to middlemen thanks to the weak negotiating position of thousands or millions of producers facing a more concentrated bloc of buyers. And much of what cotton and so forth revenue that did stick to American hands stuck to Yankee ones and fueled investment in northern industry and not so much Southern.

Again the principle of "you stay on your side and I'll stay on mine" applies.
 
Groovy. It doesn't mean that 5 or 10 percent coming from Southern ports was nothing. Certainly not worth the Union going to war over all by itself, but Lincoln OTL was standing firm against secession as a legal impossibility and a terrible thing to let happen, for much more fundamental reasons. With that resolution in mind (in defiance of the OP) it seems perfectly reasonable for the Union to also resolve to hold on to every penny of tariff revenue and more importantly still, deny a cent of it to the criminal secessionist gang.
Go back and look at what I was responding to. The claim he was making was the the South was paying a "good deal" of customs taxes, and that Fort Sumter was an issue because it could be used as a point to collect Customs taxes in the CSA. Frankly, neither of those are true. You could MAYBE argue the first by saying that "good deal" is extremely vague and might be composed of well under 1/3 of federal revenues, but only if you stretched such a term extremely far. The second is completely and outright false, as shown by the Confederate seizure of multiple federal properties in the months leading up to the firing on Fort Sumter. Which I might add, also included every other fort in Charleston, with Sumter only remaining in Union hands because the local commander abandoned his far more exposed position at Moultrie to take up residence there.

Let me just outright cut through all of this with a very simple statement. Taxes played absolutely no part in any of these proceedings. None, nada. They are completely and utterly irrelevant.
 
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