Hungarywank

[King Midas]

Historically, the mideval Magyars raided from Poland to Spain in OTL, but were defeated at the Battle of Lechfeld and settled down as Lords of the Danube valley. The consensus is that the Magyars would have disappeared into history like the Huns et al, just another group of eastern ponyboys who terrorized Europe for a few decades and dropped out of the history books if they'd won.

But WI those Magyars had conquered Europe in the 10th century, rather than just raiding? Occupying the continent in a manner similar to the Norman conquest of England?
Note, I'm not saying it would be a *peaceable* empire, revolts would be rife, and probably it would fall apart due to the ungovernable size of the empire.

But to bring this about at all I see four PODs.
1) Winning the Battle of Lichfeld, 955.
2) Winning the Battle of Mohi, 1241, and effectively stopping the Mongols at Transylvania.
3) The Arpad dynasty doesn't die out
4) If the Magyar empire lasts this long, winning the battle of Battle of Mohacs, 1526.

I'm of the opinion that butterflies would change the history of Europe drastically.

 

[Yorel]

1) Winning the Battle of Lichfeld, 955.

Not sure this would lead to a Magyar wank. The defeat at the ends of the Holy Roman Emperor was one of the cause who allowed the Mongols to settle down and build a stable kingdom. This probably also eased their chritianisation (the Magyars were Pagans but turned Christians with Saint Stephen I, the first King of Hunagry).
If the Magyar win, they would probably continue their raids and settle down only later.

2) Winning the Battle of Mohi, 1241, and effectively stopping the Mongols at Transylvania.

That could prevent Hungary from being devastated by the Mongols, which would be a good thing for the Magyars. Hungary might be weaken a bit by the Mongols in this scenario, but it wouldn't be as weaken as it was OTL.

3) The Arpad dynasty doesn't die out

That would probably get rid of some of the troubles Hungary faced after the extinction of the Arpads, most notably in the succession.

4) If the Magyar empire lasts this long, winning the battle of Battle of Mohacs, 1526.

I'm not sure Hungary could have become a really strong power by 1526. The Ottomans were at their highest and were ruled by Suleiman the Magnificient. Hungary could probably survive an Ottoman Invasion if Mohacs was a victory, but I'm not sure it would lead to a Magyar wank.

Another possibility you forgot : have Louis I "the Great" of Hungary leave a son behind. Louis I lead Hungary to be the most powerful kingdom of the Balkans and was also crowned King of Poland. However, he only had three daughters in his life (Catherine, Mary who succeed him in Hungary and Hedwig who succeeded him in Poland) and his legacy crumbled after his death.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Magyars winning 955 would defeat the building the formation of "Germany", not only as a political entity, but also as a cultural space of togetherness. The battle was a great symbol for German integration; and in this particular case I think losing the battle would have burnt into the consciousness of the affected tribes as well.

Instead of the HRE, you would at least have independent Burgundy (perhaps split in two), Bavaria, Swabia, Saxonia, perhaps Thuringia, and a rich and cultivated Frankish entity possibly stretching from Palatinate and Lotharingia to OTL's Netherlands. And you would not see convergence of these dialects to two culmination points, "German" and "Dutch", but to four or five (though not necessarily to as many as states).

This is only one aspect of direct consequences. Go figure what may ensue from this.

 

[King Midas]

Let me be clearer. I intended a TL where the Magyars had over run Europe and built an empire similar to the Mongols in Asia; and posted POD's I thought would lead to that event. Thus a Hungary Wank. I'd be happy to see more.


<re Battle of Lechfeld>

Not sure this would lead to a Magyar wank. The defeat at the ends of the Holy Roman Emperor was one of the cause who allowed the Mongols <You mean Magyars?> to settle down and build a stable kingdom. This probably also eased their chritianisation (the Magyars were Pagans but turned Christians with Saint Stephen I, the first King of Hunagry).
If the Magyar win, they would probably continue their raids and settle down only later.

<re Battle of Mohi>

That could prevent Hungary from being devastated by the Mongols, which would be a good thing for the Magyars. Hungary might be weaken a bit by the Mongols in this scenario, but it wouldn't be as weaken as it was OTL.

<re Surviving Arpad dynasty>

That would probably get rid of some of the troubles Hungary faced after the extinction of the Arpads, most notably in the succession.

Another possibility you forgot : have Louis I "the Great" of Hungary leave a son behind. Louis I lead Hungary to be the most powerful kingdom of the Balkans and was also crowned King of Poland. However, he only had three daughters in his life (Catherine, Mary who succeed him in Hungary and Hedwig who succeeded him in Poland) and his legacy crumbled after his death.

Wasn't so much forgetting Louis, I was trying to avoid the Angevins, re the succession problems you mentioned. It wouldn't be *too* far off to say a great Arpad was king during this time, the gold mines flowed, etc.

I don't have a problem with the long history of marrying into the family though. It might even lead to a 1914 equivelent (The biggest family squabble the world had ever seen: Cousin George vs Cousin Willy vs Cousin Nicky ). I'm hoping to avoid a "Magyar vagy Lengyel Karoly?" question.

I'm not sure Hungary could have become a really strong power by 1526. The Ottomans were at their highest and were ruled by Suleiman the Magnificient. Hungary could probably survive an Ottoman Invasion if Mohacs was a victory, but I'm not sure it would lead to a Magyar wank.

As I understand it, winning at Mohacs would require a two headed ASB in our timeline anyway. The Ladislaus equivelent in this timeline would have to be personally and politically stronger, and the Hungarian nobles would have to have not been on a "sit down strike." This shouldn't be a problem for 300 years worth of butterflies.

Oh, and one more item on this TL:

May 2007: Sarkozy Niklos is appointed Viceroy of Frankorszsag.

 

[King Midas]

Magyars winning 955 would defeat the building the formation of "Germany", not only as a political entity, but also as a cultural space of togetherness. The battle was a great symbol for German integration; and in this particular case I think losing the battle would have burnt into the consciousness of the affected tribes as well.

Instead of the HRE, you would at least have independent Burgundy (perhaps split in two), Bavaria, Swabia, Saxonia, perhaps Thuringia, and a rich and cultivated Frankish entity possibly stretching from Palatinate and Lotharingia to OTL's Netherlands. And you would not see convergence of these dialects to two culmination points, "German" and "Dutch", but to four or five (though not necessarily to as many as states).

This is only one aspect of direct consequences. Go figure what may ensue from this.

Well, this has definite possibilities...

If the Deutchers never united, and there was never a Holy Roman Empire, could Stephen have himself and his line appointed "The Shield of God" in a manner the obverse of The Scourge of God, Atilla?

Could my Magyar Empire fill in the gap for the missing HRE?

 

[Marko]

Though the Magyars were the scourge of the late 9th and first half of the 10th century for large parts of Europe with their raids, they simply did not have the numbers to make a wank.

As far as mainstream reaserach has provided there have been between 25 000 and 70 000 Magyars at the time when Stephen became king. We also know that only about 20 000 Magyars enterd the Panonnian Basin who were mostly soldiers the picture is pretty bleak. It actually a miracle that there is Hungary and Magyar people today because. Goining for a Hungarywank prior the late 11th early 12th century is highly unlikely, because if they get more manpower - that means more slavs take part in the army and rule - it is quite likely they could get asimilated by the slavs, who outnumbered them by 10:1 by modest calculations, rather than the other way round.

Cheers

 

[GenghisKhanfan]

Not sure this would lead to a Magyar wank. The defeat at the ends of the Holy Roman Emperor was one of the cause who allowed the Mongols to settle down and build a stable kingdom. This probably also eased their chritianisation (the Magyars were Pagans but turned Christians with Saint Stephen I, the first King of Hunagry).
If the Magyar win, they would probably continue their raids and settle down only later.



That could prevent Hungary from being devastated by the Mongols, which would be a good thing for the Magyars. Hungary might be weaken a bit by the Mongols in this scenario, but it wouldn't be as weaken as it was OTL.



That would probably get rid of some of the troubles Hungary faced after the extinction of the Arpads, most notably in the succession.



I'm not sure Hungary could have become a really strong power by 1526. The Ottomans were at their highest and were ruled by Suleiman the Magnificient. Hungary could probably survive an Ottoman Invasion if Mohacs was a victory, but I'm not sure it would lead to a Magyar wank.

Another possibility you forgot : have Louis I "the Great" of Hungary leave a son behind. Louis I lead Hungary to be the most powerful kingdom of the Balkans and was also crowned King of Poland. However, he only had three daughters in his life (Catherine, Mary who succeed him in Hungary and Hedwig who succeeded him in Poland) and his legacy crumbled after his death.

The actual sultan of Turkey then was Murad V....not Suleiman

 

[Yorel]

The actual sultan of Turkey then was Murad V....not Suleiman

Suleiman the Magnificient was Sultan of the Ottoman Empire from 1520 to 1566. The Battle of Mohacs happened in 1526 : so Suleiman WAS sultan at Mohacs.

There was no Sultan named Murad V before 1876. And that Murad V only ruled for 3 month and 1 day as he was overthrown for trying to democraticize the Regime...