Henry VI's Tudor sisters

Change is simple: half-brothers of Henry VI are born as girls instead, so there is Catherine and Margaret instead of Edmund and Jasper, and Owen Tudor has no other surviving legitimate kids.
So how would existence these Tudor girls change history? Henry likely is not trying to make them his heiresses as he tried with half-brothers. As king had no other siblings he'd likely use them as English proxies (possibly in Scotland-one of them could marry James II).
 
Change is simple: half-brothers of Henry VI are born as girls instead, so there is Catherine and Margaret instead of Edmund and Jasper, and Owen Tudor has no other surviving legitimate kids.
So how would existence these Tudor girls change history? Henry likely is not trying to make them his heiresses as he tried with half-brothers. As king had no other siblings he'd likely use them as English proxies (possibly in Scotland-one of them could marry James II).
Wouldn't be so sure about them being used as proxies, unless they came with massive dowries. I'm backing Catherine and William Herbert (pacifies Wales) , and Margaret and Henry Beaufort (his father's a royal favorite)
Margaret Beaufort is gonna having a different husband, probably one of duke of Somerset's sons.
Wouldn't be so sure, if things play out largely as OTL, either she remains married to Lincoln or marries one of York's sons.
 
Henry himself negated her match with Lincoln, and IMHO one of Beaufort cousins is safer option for him that York's son.
20 years after the POD, and after Suffolk fell out of royal favour, which isn't going to happen soon.


Not really, York would be lord protector, Henry can't marry Beaufort to......Beaufort in this scenario (in addition to the sh*tlaod of reasons I gave in the other thread) and why would annuling a match on grouds of consanguinity and then marrying Margaret to a closer cousin be safer than York's kid?
 
20 years after the POD, and after Suffolk fell out of royal favour, which isn't going to happen soon.


Not really, York would be lord protector, Henry can't marry Beaufort to......Beaufort in this scenario (in addition to the sh*tlaod of reasons I gave in the other thread) and why would annuling a match on grouds of consanguinity and then marrying Margaret to a closer cousin be safer than York's kid?

For what? For a year? And OTL match of Margaret had place after York's protectorate was over.
 
For what? For a year? And OTL match of Margaret had place after York's protectorate was over.
What for an year?

Since Margaret was like 10 when the first match got annulled, and unmarried during York's protectorate, you do not think York would get one of his sons married to her?

OTOH, if (and it's a big if) Margaret is somehow married to one of her cousins before Henry goes mad, the most powerful man in England hates said cousin's father with a passion, and has every reason to annul the match, and would do so.

Re: how tf is Somerset's son "safer" than York's?
 
What for an year?

It's my mistake, I thought that protectorate of York lasted for a year. Actually it lasted for two years, and I think it just won't be enough time for York to marry her to one of his sons and get them to consummate, IOTL Henry Tudor was born in 1457 and Edmund was a lot older than Margaret, I don't think that Edward of March/Edmund of Rutland will consummate the marriage until York's protectorate ends.
 
Weren't there half-sisters IOTL that didn't amount to much? Or did they die young?

On the discussion that's going on- Henry's preference (and Margaret's) will be for Margaret Beaufort to marry a son of their favourite Somerset, which has the added benefit of reuniting all the Beaufort properties (...and maybe means they don't have to lavish as much patronage on Somerset ITTL?).

The question is whether York is bold enough to snag her for one of his sons during the Protectorate, and whether that marriage holds up when Henry returns to health.
 
Weren't there half-sisters IOTL that didn't amount to much? Or did they die young?
From what I know there was only one sister, Margaret, she was born in 1437 and died shortly afterwards.
Are there any male Beauforts available for one of the sisters?
 
It's my mistake, I thought that protectorate of York lasted for a year. Actually it lasted for two years, and I think it just won't be enough time for York to marry her to one of his sons and get them to consummate, IOTL Henry Tudor was born in 1457 and Edmund was a lot older than Margaret, I don't think that Edward of March/Edmund of Rutland will consummate the marriage until York's protectorate ends.
They'll get married easily enough.
York's protectorate lasted till 1455, when both Margaret and Edmund/Edward would be ~12 (if Edmund) or 12 and 13 (if Edward). While quite certainly waiting for a couple of years is preferable, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that they do consummate the marriage (or just quite simply pretend to do so, by spreading some blood on the bedsheets)


Otherwise, assuming they don't consummate by 1455, nor do they go with staining the bedsheets, getting their marriage to be annulled will be much more harder without essentially commiting political (and military, for that matter) suicide. The Suffolk and Somerset matches are simple enough, the majority if their power came from the king. York, OTOH, is a monster in his own right.
Weren't there half-sisters IOTL that didn't amount to much? Or did they die young?

On the discussion that's going on- Henry's preference (and Margaret's) will be for Margaret Beaufort to marry a son of their favourite Somerset, which has the added benefit of reuniting all the Beaufort properties (...and maybe means they don't have to lavish as much patronage on Somerset ITTL?).

The question is whether York is bold enough to snag her for one of his sons during the Protectorate, and whether that marriage holds up when Henry returns to health.
I think there was one that became a nun?

Certainly the preference will be for the Beauforts. I don't see why Somerset wouldn't be as patronised ITTL, especially if he's still essentially sucking upto them.

Given his nature, York doing so isn't the problem.

I'd say it would, perhaps not as easily as I first thought, but likely it does "hold up".
From what I know there was only one sister, Margaret, she was born in 1437 and died shortly afterwards.
Are there any male Beauforts available for one of the sisters?
ATL Jasper (aka Catherine ITTL, AFAICT) is 5 years older than the eldest Somerset kid. He's where the line would be drawn IMO.


Edit: @isabella @Bob_Jenko @VVD0D95 @glore7 @Kellan Sullivan @The Professor @curlyhairedhippie
 
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t isn't out of the realm of possibility that they do consummate the marriage (or just quite simply pretend to do so, by spreading some blood on the bedsheets)

But York would need to know when exactly Henry will recover, but he just doesn't possess the ability of precogniton (despite all his talents).

getting their marriage to be annulled will be much more harder without essentially commiting political (and military, for that matter) suicide.

It's not like Henry VI or Somerset were competent or even average politicians and I think that Henry VI might fear Beaufort estates coming into York's hands.
 
But York would need to know when exactly Henry will recover, but he just doesn't possess the ability of precogniton (despite all his talents).



It's not like Henry VI or Somerset were competent or even average politicians and I think that Henry VI might fear Beaufort estates coming into York's hands.
But he is intelligent tho, seeing as Margaret has already had one marriage annuled, he's smart enough to take precautions that one between his son and her isn't.

Agreed on the politcs part. Henry VI might fear so, but he can't really do anything seeing as he is mentally ill, and essentially out of commission.
 
But he is intelligent tho, seeing as Margaret has already had one marriage annuled, he's smart enough to take precautions that one between his son and her isn't.

Agreed on the politcs part. Henry VI might fear so, but he can't really do anything seeing as he is mentally ill, and essentially out of commission.

Yes, he is, but to take such an action he'd need to know that Henry will recover and when exactly. Being intelligent (and not such an asshole as Edmund Tudor) he also knows that early sex and pregnancy will ruin Margaret's health, so less grandsons for him.

He recovered in 1455. If Margaret isn't married and this marriage consummated by this year, he'd try to dissolve the York marriage with her.
 
Yes, he is, but to take such an action he'd need to know that Henry will recover and when exactly. Being intelligent (and not such an asshole as Edmund Tudor) he also knows that early sex and pregnancy will ruin Margaret's health, so less grandsons for him.

He recovered in 1455. If Margaret isn't married and this marriage consummated by this year, he'd try to dissolve the York marriage with her.
Which is why I said that he could simply stain the bedsheets with blood.


They'll likely be married in 1454, and would have "consumnated" the marriage by 1455. It's not like Henry (or Somerset, or Margaret) know exactly what's going on in York's household, soo they can't claim that the marriage isn't consummated.
 
Which is why I said that he could simply stain the bedsheets with blood.


They'll likely be married in 1454, and would have "consumnated" the marriage by 1455. It's not like Henry (or Somerset, or Margaret) know exactly what's going on in York's household, soo they can't claim that the marriage isn't consummated.

I think that they'd just do claim so out of desperation and fear towards York.
 
It might actually be true, and I don't know if it's that unlikely.
It likely would be, but, as far as everyone involved knows, Edmund (likeliest Yorkist husband for Margaret) and Margaret are now man and wife in the eyes of God.

If Henry's decommissioned, York has more resources and connections than Margaret and Somerset combined, and if he's not, York isn't exactly going to take it face down, plus, he's a close second.
 
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