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Well Serbe expelled from Kosovo by Kosovars forces with support of NATO troops would say differently. Actually, if you would call same way same people are calling the expulsion of Germans from let say Sudetland. You would call it Genocide on Serbs in Kosovo. Serbs in northern part of Kosovo can't even secede from Kosovo and join Serbian republic. They would be bombed by NATO forces to stone age. But thing is, Serbs paid the price for what were they doing since 1990 in former Yougoslavia. And western democracies don't care more about them.

This comparison is just flatly wrong. The last time I looked, Northern Kosovo was still full of Serbs. Same goes for the historically Serb areas of Bosnia. Even in Croatia, the UN tries to revert the 1990s era ethnic cleansing commited by Croats. Granted, most of them don't want to return, since Serbs and Croats can't stand each other. For the same reason, ethnic Croats who were kicked out of Serbia in the 90s don't return there, although they could, if they wished to do so. And at The Hague, there are not only Serbian war criminals, but Croatian, Bosnian and Kosovar ones as well. Ethnic cleansing has become universally unaccepted. And one might never know how the Kosovo issue will finally play out. Lots of EU countries have not recognized Kosovo, therefore the international opinion on it is split.

And collective punishment is always a crime, no matter who does it to whom.
 

Adler

Banned
KACKO is showing his attitude and disqualifies himself. He is supporting crimes. And that's "kacke"!

Adler
 
Minority rights for the Germans in Czechia existed on paper, the reality was different, same as blacks enjoy the same rights as whites in the southern US. That Czech buerocrats and teachers were expelled does not excuse the orgy of violence after 1945, where almost a millon, whose ancestors had lived there for almost a thousand years were beaten to death, raped, starved in death camps and the lucky ones driven from their ancestral homes. It was just as bestial as German crimes.
 
This comparison is just flatly wrong. The last time I looked, Northern Kosovo was still full of Serbs. Same goes for the historically Serb areas of Bosnia. Even in Croatia, the UN tries to revert the 1990s era ethnic cleansing commited by Croats. Granted, most of them don't want to return, since Serbs and Croats can't stand each other. For the same reason, ethnic Croats who were kicked out of Serbia in the 90s don't return there, although they could, if they wished to do so. And at The Hague, there are not only Serbian war criminals, but Croatian, Bosnian and Kosovar ones as well. Ethnic cleansing has become universally unaccepted. And one might never know how the Kosovo issue will finally play out. Lots of EU countries have not recognized Kosovo, therefore the international opinion on it is split.

And collective punishment is always a crime, no matter who does it to whom.
During the war, 90,000 Serbs fled from Kosovo. The Yugoslav Red Cross had also registered 247,391 mostly Serbian refugees by November.
Just quick search on wiki.
 

Adler

Banned
Strategic thoughts, June/July 1944

After the events of June 1944, the failed invasion and the battle of the Mariana islands the belligerent nations had to rethink their strategies.

The Anglo-American Alliance was very much in troubles, as many thought war was now without a sense. Why should they fight Germany or Japan? Although Japan was still seen as enemy to fight, only few voices were also demanding peace here, while most demanded to make peace with Germany to fight the Japanese. But that could change soon.

Roosevelt did not want to make peace. And although the numbers of his supporters eroded and it would not look like he would win the next elections, he was adamant. Churchill, who was not opposing a peace treaty, had no chance to convince him. Instead Roosevelt demanded his loyality. Churchill finally accepted, as he feared for the Empire once there was no support from the USA any more. Either, he was no friend of Germany or Japan, too. However, his alcohol consume, not that he drank nothing before, went higher and higher.

A new strategy was now to be made. The Germans could only be beaten with the air forces. So a new air offensive was to be made to force Germany to surrender. A war of attrition was to be tried.

Japan was now out of reach of the air force. Only a submarine offensive could cut the Japanese from the resources of the islands. The nest problem was that the Soviets, after making peace with Germany, not only sold the Germans resources, but also the Japanese.

So they needed to change that. An attack on Russia was soon out of question, as it would lead to a complete hostile Soviet Union. And as they had given the Germans all Western Allied arms and men under Allied control the tensions were already there. But there was a triumvirate ruling now, Molotow, Berija and Schukow. Could there be a possibility...?

For the war with Japan the Island Hopping strategy was to be revived on a dramatical way.

For the Germans the situation was much better than only a few months earlier. Now millions of men could be transferred from the east to the west. Resources, destinated for the war in the east, were reallocated. That doesn't mean though the Germans would pull out all troops out of Eastern Europe. There were enough forces left to have an eye on the Soviets. But, so far, the Soviets played honestly. New resources were sent as well as new secret reports. The Germans accepted that completely. Nonetheless they were also cautious. Indeed there were some divisions deployed in France, Norway and Italy, but many divisions stayed in the East. Nevertheless also the Germans played fair. They had disarmed Vlasow's army and did not interfere in Russian politics. Furthermore foreign minister von der Schulenburg resigned and became ambassador in Moscow again, as it was necessary to keep the good relations. As his replacement Dr. Konrad Adenauer was chosen. It was also a hope to be more conciliant to the French ally and the western Allies.

As for the war the Germans knew that the war became a war of air- and sea warfare. The surface fleet was now bound mostly as a fleet in being and used purely defensively. As it was clear that even the building of destroyers was difficult, even they were used more and more defensively. M-Boats, now armed with two torpedo tubes, were used as replacement. Although the resource situation was now not as problematic as it was before, the Kriegsmarine would get in 1944 only four destroyers and seven fleet torpedo boats. Next year it was estimated to be only one destroyer and seven torpedo boats. More ships would not be ready before 1946/47. And the ships existing were needed to be used as a fleet in being. Uboats and S-Boats were now the main offensive systems. And the new Uboat types were built, but would not be ready before spring of the next year.

In the air General Galland anticipated the strategy of a war of attrition and so ordered more and more Me 262 fighters. Furthermore he gave the order to develope a successor. Other means were hurried. New missiles were to be made ready until January 1945. Until now about 200 Me 262 had been but indeed only two Gruppen of JG 7 were operational, the others used as test beds or for training. He could now hope, that monthly 120 and in half a year even 240 were built. The other promising jet planes were the Arado 232 bomber and reconaissance plane, the other the Horten H IX. But the latter was very ambitious and would not go into production before mid 1945. At best.

So he still had to rely on piston engined fighters. The new FW 190 D-9 fighters were to be produced soon. However, this new type had still problems in great altitudes. Below the plane was superior to the Spitfire IX and the P-51. But not in great altitudes, where the new B-29 bombers could fly. So a high altitude fighter, the Ta 152 H, was ordered but would not come before the end of the year.

Also new bombers were needed. There was the need of a strategic bomber. The planes to select were the He 277, the He 274, the Ju 488, the Ta 400 and the Ju 390. Indeed it was decided to build up four wings of Ju 488, two He 274 high altitude bombers and some few Ju 390 for the navy. As Amerikabomber the Ta 400 was selected. But this design was so innovative that before 1946/47 no series production could be made. And there was still the problem of the priority of the fighter planes. And some medium bombers were still needed as well.

In Japan Yamamoto and Yamashita were planning the next steps. After reaching the last bases of the US, from where they could send their B-29 bombers to Japan, the main land was save, for the moment at least. The air battle of Yamashita, in which only light damages happened but 7 of 47 B-29 shot down or destroyed due to accidents, was unique as the Chengdu air field had no fuel left and new was difficult to aquire. As well, it was no longer save any more soon, as the Japanese bombed it and captured it later this year. However, they needed a high altitude fighter and only several weeks later Germany had exchanged the plans for the Ta 152 H in exchange of the A7M, B7N and D4Y planes for the German carriers.

But at sea they needed to fight the Allied submarines as well as to prepare for the next offensive of the Allies. In the meantime they were however able to reconquer the Caroline islands lost to the US.

TBC

Adler
 
Minority rights for the Germans in Czechia existed on paper, the reality was different, same as blacks enjoy the same rights as whites in the southern US. That Czech buerocrats and teachers were expelled does not excuse the orgy of violence after 1945, where almost a millon, whose ancestors had lived there for almost a thousand years were beaten to death, raped, starved in death camps and the lucky ones driven from their ancestral homes. It was just as bestial as German crimes.
So all 250000 expelled were just Czech government officials?

- 3rd government of Antonin Svehla October 12 1926 - February 1 1929 - Ministry of justice and Ministry of Public works filled by members of 2 German parties.

- 1st government of Frantisek Udrzal February 1 1929 - December 7 1929 - Ministry of justice and Ministry of Public works filled by members of 2 German parties.

- 1st government of Jan Malypetr October 1 1932 - February 14 1934 - Ministry of health and Ministry of social care filled by members of 2 German parties.

- 2nd government of Jan Malypetr February 14 1934 - June 4 1935 - Ministry of health and Ministry of public works filled by members of 2 German parties.

- 3rd government of Jan Malypetr June 4 1935 - November 5 1935 - Ministry of health and Minister without seat filled by members of 2 German parties.

- 3rd government of Jan Malypetr June 4 1935 - November 5 1935 - Ministry of health and Minister without Ministry filled by members of 2 German parties.

- 1st government of Milan Hodza November 5 1935 - December 18 1935 - Ministry of health and Minister of public works filled by members of 2 German parties.

- 2nd government of Milan Hodza December 18 1935 - July 21 1937 - Ministry of health and two Ministers without Ministry filled by members of 3 German parties.

- 3rd government of Milan Hodza July 21 1937 - September 22 1938 - Ministry of health and two Ministers without Ministry filled by members of 3 German parties.

So Germans had part in 9th coalition governemnts from 20-ties to 30-ties, and you are saying it was only on paper?
They freely published books, had University, High schools, public schools. Of course there were problems. But some other minorities in Europe never get so much rights.
Germans had always their share of politicians in Czechoslovak parliament since 1920.
And back to the transfers of Germans from Czechoslovakia. Yes, killing happened mostly during wild expellings shortly after war. But true also is that around 300 000 Germans run away before advancing Soviets.
Some killings were done actually by Germans too. There is recorded murder of 3 Germans by other German, communist who after returning from KL wanted some revenge.
Also there were killings of refugees by Germans in Germany who blamed Sudet Germans for the war.
WWII was brutal and brutal was also the revenge of victims.
They sowed the wind at the end they harvested the storm.
 
KACKO is showing his attitude and disqualifies himself. He is supporting crimes. And that's "kacke"!

Adler
Getting to calling names? You got pretty low.
Well if I am supporting the crimes you are doing the same. Expelling almost 250 000 people was just fun?
My family knows the shit from all sites. Robbed by Hungarians and Soviets house burned by Germans and part of family expelled from Poland. Later on robbed again by commies. So what? Always put themselves together and started all over again.
Finally are Germans much smarter. Eastern Europe is their by economic strength.
And it would be much better if they did that without Hitler in 30-ties. Germans could be still all over Central and Eastern Europe and participate on the growth. But unfortunately they got drunk by power offered to them by Hitler and his cronies and at the end bill was just too much.
 
perhaps a way for the Japps to get in a more favourable light could be to slowly return control over colonies to their owners. Thus rearming for example the KNIL and helping the Dutch to take back control, aswell as officially supporting colonial rule there, thus helping Germany and Japan to remove some enemies.

Those things might just be enough to have the Netherlands and possibly other smaller nations to accept peace, especially if no territorial demands are made.
 
Getting to calling names? You got pretty low.
Well if I am supporting the crimes you are doing the same. Expelling almost 250 000 people was just fun?
My family knows the shit from all sites. Robbed by Hungarians and Soviets house burned by Germans and part of family expelled from Poland. Later on robbed again by commies. So what? Always put themselves together and started all over again.
Finally are Germans much smarter. Eastern Europe is their by economic strength.
And it would be much better if they did that without Hitler in 30-ties. Germans could be still all over Central and Eastern Europe and participate on the growth. But unfortunately they got drunk by power offered to them by Hitler and his cronies and at the end bill was just too much.

my family fought both the Germans and the Jappos, dont you ever make it seem as if those that try to argue things rationally are pro nazis! You are insinuating that everyone who argues, in defence of this Germany and against the Allies or even tries to argue in a neutral way over all parties, is ether a neo-nazi or a nazi-sympathiser.
 
my family fought both the Germans and the Jappos, dont you ever make it seem as if those that try to argue things rationally are pro nazis! You are insinuating that everyone who argues, in defence of this Germany and against the Allies or even tries to argue in a neutral way over all parties, is ether a neo-nazi or a nazi-sympathiser.
Well. I did showed rationally some facts from prewar Czechoslovakia which showed that even if there were some issues, Germans in fact were exercising the rights which all others citizens had. It was not perfect, in fact Czechoslovak republic used more then once it's police with arms against protesting workers, and workers were not Germans.
But never heard examples from all other European countries how minorities were treated there.
Just take for example Lusitanians Serbs in Germany. Their schools in Germany are closed even now. For "lack of funds".
What pisses me off is when people say Germans had it so bad in prewar Czechoslovakia. In 1935 from 66 German seats in parliament, 44 had Henlein' s Sudetendeutsche Partei, SdP, so basically 2/3 of Czechoslovak Germans associated themselves with Hitler. They bet everything on wrong horse and they lost.
And again, I am not saying that killings during transfers or expulsions, call it whatever you want were right. And again, at least some of the offenders were later on prosecuted. Not all of them? Well not all of the Nazis who commited war crimes were prosecuted either.
After war came punishment in form of expulsions and as it was cruel war punishment was harsh.
For example Karol Pazur who commanded murder of Germans closed to Prerov was sentenced in 1947 to 20 years of jail time. The prosecuter was same person who got Jozef Tiso to gallows. unfortunately after commies get to power his sentence was lowered by his commie friends and at the end he got out just after only short time in jail. But same happened on the Nazi murderers on the other side of the border.
 
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As for the war the Germans knew that the war became a war of air- and sea warfare. The surface fleet was now bound mostly as a fleet in being and used purely defensively. As it was clear that even the building of destroyers was difficult, even they were used more and more defensively. M-Boats, now armed with two torpedo tubes, were used as replacement. Although the resource situation was now not as problematic as it was before, the Kriegsmarine would get in 1944 only four destroyers and seven fleet torpedo boats. Next year it was estimated to be only one destroyer and seven torpedo boats. More ships would not be ready before 1946/47. And the ships existing were needed to be used as a fleet in being. Uboats and S-Boats were now the main offensive systems. And the new Uboat types were built, but would not be ready before spring of the next year.

TBC

Adler
One quick question: Wouldn't the Germans consider repairing the Graf Zeppelin after the end of the war in the east and the defeat of the invasion? If I have counted correctly they have now two light carriers (what is the status of the French cruiser de Grasse btw? It was considered to be converted, too.), one fleet carrier captured (from the Soviets, ex-US) and one (small) damaged fleet carrier (Graf Zeppelin). Considering the allied losses so far they have a short window of opportunity before these losses are replaced... And the economic and military situation changed (no more land theaters with heavy combat).
 

Adler

Banned
KACKO you're arguing the very same way the Nazis did. If Germans did harm to your family I am sorry. But that in no way justifies the actions the Czechs did after the war.

Adler
 

Adler

Banned
One quick question: Wouldn't the Germans consider repairing the Graf Zeppelin after the end of the war in the east and the defeat of the invasion? If I have counted correctly they have now two light carriers (what is the status of the French cruiser de Grasse btw? It was considered to be converted, too.), one fleet carrier captured (from the Soviets, ex-US) and one (small) damaged fleet carrier (Graf Zeppelin). Considering the allied losses so far they have a short window of opportunity before these losses are replaced... And the economic and military situation changed (no more land theaters with heavy combat).

The Germans have the SMS Graf Zeppelin, which is damaged, the SMS Richthofen, former USS Intrepid, and the SMS Peter Strasser (ex Aquila) as fleet carriers. SMS Weser (ex Seydlitz) is a light carrier and still used as training vessel in the Baltic. SMS Graf Zeppelin could now be rebuilt as there are more resources by now. However, there are two problems. At first the Type XXI and XXIII programs are running binding most resources to the submarines. Then several more submarines would not be built. The next problem is, that the ship needs a complete rebuilt from up of the hangar deck. Especially some flaws are needed to be corrected. Then the Germans have a modern state of the art carrier, the SMS Richthofen. She is currently under close examination of the German engineers. Until the results are not known it is questionable if they want to rebuild a ship to an ancient design or to rebuild it to a more modern design. As the results of the examination won't be there until the end of the year any repair would not start until late 1945, when the new plans are ready. She would then serve as a kind of prototype again for the next class of carriers, which would not be laid down until after the end of the war.

Adler
 

Adler

Banned
perhaps a way for the Japps to get in a more favourable light could be to slowly return control over colonies to their owners. Thus rearming for example the KNIL and helping the Dutch to take back control, aswell as officially supporting colonial rule there, thus helping Germany and Japan to remove some enemies.

Those things might just be enough to have the Netherlands and possibly other smaller nations to accept peace, especially if no territorial demands are made.

Have a bit patientes ;).

Adler
 
KACKO you're arguing the very same way the Nazis did. If Germans did harm to your family I am sorry. But that in no way justifies the actions the Czechs did after the war.
Adler
Well again I am not trying to justify the murders during the events in 1945-46. It shouldn't happened. Just from the view of people deportations was the best what happened after 7 years of WWII.
I would personally prefer if what happened in 1938 and as a consequences afterwards could be totally different. There were good examples of cooperation between nationalities in area and at the end Nazis destroyed all of this just in few years. I still think that even if Czechoslovakia was not perfect if it had few more years and no Nazis interfering it could get even much better. Germans and Hungarians and Slovaks were gaining their influence in political life of Czechoslovakia and probably could peacefully changed it to better if not Hitler, Heinlain, Tiso and other scum.
I can even say I partially like your time line, especially start. But later on just everything is going too easy and too good for Germans. I understand why and I have a same problem with my own timeline on which I am working.
Best wishes.
 
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Adler

Banned
KACKO, your problem is, that you don't see the other side of the medal. And the Sudeten Germans had problems with the Czechs. It wasn't so nice as you said. Indeed they had de facto less rights than the Slovaks although they were more in numbers. And to punish someone for serving in the Wehrmacht, something he could barely avoid, isn't fair either. Thus the complete deportation of Germans, with only some exceptions, remains a war crime.

Adler
 
Well again I am not trying to justify the murders during the events in 1945-46. It shouldn't happened. Just from the view of people deportations was the best what happened after 7 years of WWII.
I would personally prefer if what happened in 1938 and as a consequences afterwards could be totally different. There were good examples of cooperation between nationalities in area and at the end Nazis destroyed all of this just in few years. I still think that even if Czechoslovakia was not perfect if it had few more years and no Nazis interfering it could get even much better. Germans and Hungarians and Slovaks were gaining their influence in political life of Czechoslovakia and probably could peacefully changed it to better if not Hitler, Heinlain, Tiso and other scum.
I can even say I partially like your time line, especially start. But later on just everything is going too easy and too good for Germans. I understand why and I have a same problem with my own timeline on which I am working.
Best wishes.

What you need to understand is that aslong as the US remains in the war and on track with the Manhattan project all these victories mean nothing.

And there is no way germany could pull off something that impacts US capabilities to do so.

The closest (im)possible way is that Churchill flips and declares peace, Roosevelt - already portrayed as somewhat irrational towards the war ITL - takes this is affront and in a bout of Hitler-sized (for the sheer scale and stupidy of it) paranoia decides that before the imperalistic brits stab him in the back he'll steal a march on them.

By declaring first.

In england itself US forces, there as reserves for D-Day and now sitting around for the new plan, clash with the british homeguard. All along the canadian* border** there are clashes.

The war would briefly devolve into one huge clusterfuck.



*They're as good a brits.

**Not really
 

Adler

Banned
Seperate Peace Treaties in 1944

When in 1943 no seperate peace treaty was made between Axis and Allied states, there were several in 1944.

The first and most important one was the Peace of Stockholm of October 31st 1944 between Germany, the other European Axis members and the Soviets. But several others happened before.

When it was clear there would be no invasion several occupied nations made peace with Germany. So Luxemburg was the first one on July 30th. Here the Treaty of Luxemburg gave Luxemburg the independence back. They got, too, also 1.000.000,- M as mostly symbolic reparations. However, this was never named this way, but as "expenses" for the rights of way and the use of air space by the Luftwaffe and Armée de l'air until war with the Allies had ended.

Belgium was the next one om August 30th. The Treaty of Brussels ended the war for them. They had to accept the plebiscite of the day before in Eupen and Malmedy, which both returned to the Reich. As well, the air space and some RADAR stations and air fields could be used by the Germans until the end of the war. The same was true for a strip of 30 km at the coastline. The Germans paid "expenses" for that, this time 25 million M. Both sides would revoke any claims of reparations.

The Greek had already accepted a peace treaty, the Treaty of Munich, on August 1st. They were very aware about the possibility of a communist take over, especially as they heard rumors the Soviets would demand Greece. That and the lost faith of the Western Allies let them sign the treaty. Greece would be independent again and would gain the Dodecanese, but had to return all areas won from Bulgaria after ww1. The Germans would still use bases, air space and waters, but would fight with the Greek troups against the ELAS. They paid "subsisies" for this, too, 25 million Mark. This treaty was secret at first. In a daring move the Greek army was able to enter ships and was transported back to Greece, guarded by the Greek navy. The Greek squadrons left the bases and flew to bases in Greece.

For the Allies this action of August 15th was a complete surprise, as officially only a manoeuver was planned. Soon the Greek fleet was half way en route to Crete. Then the Greek ambassador in London gave Churchill a note having made peace with Germany and leaving the Alliance. Churchill was stunned and, after drinking a whiskey, broke the diplomatic relations to Greece, as he saw a betrayal in it. However, no declaration of war on Greece followed, only one in which the leased ships were demanded back. Which did not happen. In the meantime Allied submarines attacked Greek ships in the Aegean until the Greek threatened to enter the war on the German side. Since then no further actions in this way took place.

The Dutch played with open cards and officially entered negotiations on August 5th. After it was clear, that the Dutch authorities could return to the DEI and the Japanese would transfer the civilian authority to them and help to execute it, Queen Wilhelmina signed the Peace Treaty of Amsterdam on September 15th. However, the Axis powers still remained certain rights until war was over. Therefore Germany and Japan paid a sum of total 50 million Mark.

The Danes signed the Peace Treaty of Ahrensburg the next day. Here, too, they had to accept German military presence and operations. The situation from before did not change completely except Appenrade and Tondern became German. 15 million Mark "compensation" were paid.

TBC

Adler
 
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