For the Dream of the Dead Empire: A Post-Roman TL
- Thread starter shakaka36
- Start date
Interesting to see that the Romans are going south. I would have thought they were trying to get more of the Frankish lands. With the franks under pressure by the Saxons it would make sense. But I guess southern lands are more promising to the Romans
There's a couple of reasons for the Romans to try the Southern approach, emphasis on TRY, because they haven't won the war yet!:
1. Syagrius's regime is dominated by a tension between what we might think of as Northerners/Easterners, and Southerners. The former care a lot about the Franks, but the latter are far more concerned with the Visigoths. The successful war on the Somme has placated the Northerners, but the Southerners are only cautiously supportive and would balk at supporting deeper action into Frankish territory.
2. The South is more promising territory to gain in three key ways: it is more economically productive, contains more functional Roman cities, and in general expanding there would be a major economic gain for Syagrius. Additionally, Roman land-owning society is largely intact in the South and Roman warlords are common. In other words it would be relatively easy for Syagrius to establish and solidify administration of these regions. And from a strategic perspective, an expansion to the South does not expose his regime to new threats. IF the gains against the Visigoths are meager, and King Euric retains lands in Gaul, the Romans will still have the same set of neighbors to the South, just on more favorable terms. If they push the Visigoths into Spain, then they'll have an ally to the East (the Burgundians), the sea to the South, and the Visigoths again to the Southwest. A favorable outcome relatively speaking.
3. On the other hand, there are a lot of factors to advertise against Northern expansion. The Frankish lands are not particularly economically productive (aside from the Rhineland, but more about that below). Roman cities and the Roman way of life is already severely shriveled by this point. There is no significant reservoir of still-powerful Roman landowners or military leaders to call upon. The Rhineland is rich but not capable of defending itself. Indeed given the resources that Syagrius has, defending the Somme is a much better position than trying to hold the lower Rhine, or whatever intermediary position he might seek in the Frankish territories.
4. A weak and divided Franks is really the most favorable outcome for the Romans right now. The Saxons are flexing their might and the Alemanni would love a chance to fight some Romans. If the Romans took over Frankish lands, they've have to deal with these forces directly at significant threat.
Of course, if the Romans can make significant gains against the Visigoths, it would definitely shift their resource constraint considerably and change all these calculations
IF.
Going south
Where will the Romans strike?
I think the most sensible goal would be the regions in the south-west, considering that the Visigoths had their capital at Tolouse. These regions were less controlled. At the same time the Burgundians might strike from the east. And the Visigoths might be in a difficult position...
Considering the area between Somme and Rhine: I think the Rhine would be a better natural border than the Somme. But of course You are right that this area would (after a possible reconquest) require a lot of work to repopulate/rebuilding the administration and the denfences.
How is the status of the administration of the territories under Roman control? Do they still have some resemblance to the old roman administration (at least the ranks in the military would suggest at least some semblance) or are they more comparable to the germanic kingdoms?
Regards
flo
Where will the Romans strike?
I think the most sensible goal would be the regions in the south-west, considering that the Visigoths had their capital at Tolouse. These regions were less controlled. At the same time the Burgundians might strike from the east. And the Visigoths might be in a difficult position...
Considering the area between Somme and Rhine: I think the Rhine would be a better natural border than the Somme. But of course You are right that this area would (after a possible reconquest) require a lot of work to repopulate/rebuilding the administration and the denfences.
How is the status of the administration of the territories under Roman control? Do they still have some resemblance to the old roman administration (at least the ranks in the military would suggest at least some semblance) or are they more comparable to the germanic kingdoms?
Regards
flo
Well there's really two questions to be asked here. What is the BEST place for them to strike, and where WILL they strike? The Romans have a fairly long border with the Visigoths (as, for that matter, do the Burgundians), so there's a number of points that could make sense. But remember that King Euric was a great leader and Syagrius didn't prove that adept in OTL, so expect the Visigoths to put up stiff resistance and the Romans may make some blunders. You'll just have to wait and see
The Rhine is a more defensible frontier in absolute terms, sure, but in the context of the particular resources Syagrius has it would probably be harder to hold. Syagrius can hold the entire Somme with his current forces, but holding the entire Rhine would require significantly more resources (not to mention a war with the Alemanni for their portion of the river). And if he took just the lower Rhine, that would pose challenges of its own.
Chaotic would be the word i'd use. It's a kind of Frankenstein's monster of surviving Imperial civil administration structures, military administration, petty warlord rule, and semi-barbarian concepts of administration. Central bureaucracy at Noviodunum is threadbare, and Syagrius is lucky if he can collect even half the tax the Empire might have pulled from the area, and even most of that money stays with local leaders instead of going to the center. Cities are defaulting to local control, turning back the trend towards centralization in the later Empire. The military likes to maintain a fig-leaf of its Imperial structure, but in truth for the most part we're talking about forces whose training, organization and arms are pretty comparable to that of their barbarian neighbors. The role of specific commanders in commanding the loyalty of chunks of troops is very important.
Interesting times they are living in
Concerning the place to strike I totally agree that it will be influenced by a lot of factors. But on the other hand it will be influenced by the factors on the ground. But depending how entrenched the Visigoth rule is in the region of Aquitania and on how strong the (former) roman influence is this region might be taken without to much trouble and be well within the capabilities of the forces Syagrius might be able to gather. And he strikes me as a man who is rather aware of the weakness of his (loyal) forces and not too prone to gambling if he can avoid it. I think a lot depends on the question if Syagrius might be able to restore the administration including the tax collection.
But it is Your story and I will watch with great anticipation where it goes...
Concerning the place to strike I totally agree that it will be influenced by a lot of factors. But on the other hand it will be influenced by the factors on the ground. But depending how entrenched the Visigoth rule is in the region of Aquitania and on how strong the (former) roman influence is this region might be taken without to much trouble and be well within the capabilities of the forces Syagrius might be able to gather. And he strikes me as a man who is rather aware of the weakness of his (loyal) forces and not too prone to gambling if he can avoid it. I think a lot depends on the question if Syagrius might be able to restore the administration including the tax collection.
But it is Your story and I will watch with great anticipation where it goes...
Just a quick cheat-sheet to help you guys out while I work on the next update. The below summarizes the basic information about the crucial players involved in the Frankish succession conflict at this stage.
Frankish Power Players - From the POD to late 482
Deceased
Childeric – Paramount King of the Franks and head of the Merovingian dynasty, commanding loyalty among Ruparian and Salian Franks alike. Childeric’s death at the beginning of 481 triggered the political crisis that has now submerged the Franks.
Clovis – The eldest son of Childeric. His untimely death in TTL leaves the Franks without a clear successor to Childeric and so is indirectly responsible for the crisis.
Chlodemer – Childeric’s brother. Briefly served as regent and de facto Frankish leader from the death of Childeric until late 481, when he was killed by opponents of his regime.
Childebert – Declared King of the Merovingian line by Chlodemer when he returned to Tornacum following Childeric’s death. He is the next eldest son after Clovis. He was imprisoned and denounced by his uncle’s assassins in late 481.
Guntheuc – Sister of Childeric and Chlodemer. She masterminded Chlodemer’s murder, and has replaced him as the new power behind the throne, replacing
Childebert with another of her nephews.
Sigebert – Briefly Merovingian King following the coup against Chlodemer and the imprisonment of his brother Childebert. A puppet for his aunt, Guntheuc. Murdered by his cousin, Theuderic, an opponent of Guntheuc.
Theuderic – A member of a subordinate branch of the Merovingian family, Theuderic has emerged as a figure in anti-Guntheuc circles. Just where exactly his loyalties lie, and what alternative leadership he supports, remains to be seen…
Ripaurian Franks – Broadly, the Eastern Franks. They never unequivocably accepted Merovingian dominance, and have been aloof from the succession battle thus-far. Many oppose the regency of Guntheuc, known to be interested in centralization that would curtail their position.
Frankish Power Players - From the POD to late 482
Deceased
Childeric – Paramount King of the Franks and head of the Merovingian dynasty, commanding loyalty among Ruparian and Salian Franks alike. Childeric’s death at the beginning of 481 triggered the political crisis that has now submerged the Franks.
Clovis – The eldest son of Childeric. His untimely death in TTL leaves the Franks without a clear successor to Childeric and so is indirectly responsible for the crisis.
Chlodemer – Childeric’s brother. Briefly served as regent and de facto Frankish leader from the death of Childeric until late 481, when he was killed by opponents of his regime.
Childebert – Declared King of the Merovingian line by Chlodemer when he returned to Tornacum following Childeric’s death. He is the next eldest son after Clovis. He was imprisoned and denounced by his uncle’s assassins in late 481.
Guntheuc – Sister of Childeric and Chlodemer. She masterminded Chlodemer’s murder, and has replaced him as the new power behind the throne, replacing
Childebert with another of her nephews.
Sigebert – Briefly Merovingian King following the coup against Chlodemer and the imprisonment of his brother Childebert. A puppet for his aunt, Guntheuc. Murdered by his cousin, Theuderic, an opponent of Guntheuc.
Theuderic – A member of a subordinate branch of the Merovingian family, Theuderic has emerged as a figure in anti-Guntheuc circles. Just where exactly his loyalties lie, and what alternative leadership he supports, remains to be seen…
Ripaurian Franks – Broadly, the Eastern Franks. They never unequivocably accepted Merovingian dominance, and have been aloof from the succession battle thus-far. Many oppose the regency of Guntheuc, known to be interested in centralization that would curtail their position.
Only the deceased Clovis and Childeric are concrete historical personalities unfortunately. Chroniclers of the time did not see fit to remember the siblings, cousins, wives, second sons, friends, etc... That a fuller narrative requires.
I feel confident in the characters as created. Childeric probably had additional sons (The time at the beginning of his reign where history records Clovis not doing much of anything, was probably spent putting them in their place). Inheritance squabbles are the bread and butter of Frankish politics. Childeric too, almost certainly had brothers, and almost certainly squabbled with them to. And this was a time of royal consolidation, where "royal lines" were being replaced with "THE royal line". A tendency that less members of the royal family, not to mention the members of the OTHER royal families, obviously disliked and opposed. At any rate, because the family tree history has left us is so incomplete, there is no way to model a Childeric-Clovis succession crisis WITHOUT invented characters.
The Ripuarian Franks are of course fully historical (although their relationship to Merovingian Kings is ambiguous in the pre-Clovis era)
I feel confident in the characters as created. Childeric probably had additional sons (The time at the beginning of his reign where history records Clovis not doing much of anything, was probably spent putting them in their place). Inheritance squabbles are the bread and butter of Frankish politics. Childeric too, almost certainly had brothers, and almost certainly squabbled with them to. And this was a time of royal consolidation, where "royal lines" were being replaced with "THE royal line". A tendency that less members of the royal family, not to mention the members of the OTHER royal families, obviously disliked and opposed. At any rate, because the family tree history has left us is so incomplete, there is no way to model a Childeric-Clovis succession crisis WITHOUT invented characters.
The Ripuarian Franks are of course fully historical (although their relationship to Merovingian Kings is ambiguous in the pre-Clovis era)
