Eleanor of Austria/Burgundy/Castile

[Kellan Sullivan]

The oldest sister of Karl V, Holy Roman Emperor, was originally supposed to marry the future Joao III of Portugal. Unfortunately, her prospective father-in-law decided to marry her instead, despite the fact he was her uncle. Eleanor had two children hefore her widowhood and remarriage to the French king. And despite her daughter, Maria, being considered as suitable dauphine material, the proposed match between her and her stepbrother never happened. Thus, Eleanor like her sister-daughter-in-law, Katherina, has no surviving descendants today.

What if Eleanor marries her proposed husband instead of Manuel? How might an not-too-alternate house of Aviz fare? And what of Katherina? She'd be too young for Manuel, and Marie and Isabella were already married. Does Katherine perhaps end up as queen of France? Or does Karl V put James V's proposals for Marie to Katherina instead? Since barring Catherine of Aragon dying early, the Habsburgs won't offer her for queen of England.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Bumpily bumpity

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

No thoughts?

 

[LeopoldPhilippe]

Eleanor marries Joao, the heir to the Portuguese throne, in 1518.
Their children are:
Infanta Joanna
Infante Duarte
Infante Sancho
Infanta Maria
Infante Ferdinand

 

[JonasResende]

I think that if Eleanor is unavailable for Manuel, he might take a wife (if he feels the overwhelming urge to do so) from the Neapolitan Trastamaras (i.e. Giulia or Isabella of Naples). Hell, its not inconceivable that the duchess of Milan offers him Bona Sforza (she was offered to Ferdinand of Austria when Fernando of Aragon contemplated naming the boy as heir; while her older sister was suggested for the duke of Calabria).

As for Eleanor, you need to remember she was offered to Sigismund the Old, Henry VIII and the duke of Lorraine before a Portuguese match was decided on. IIRC even the Elector Palatine made a bid, and the relationship between he and Eleonor was so serious that they had to swear under oath there had been no improper intimacies.

Katherina's fate is a little more cloudy in my crystal ball. I agree that barring her aunt dying or the New Year's Boy surviving, she won't end up as queen of England. And although a Habsburg queen of Scotland who just happens to be niece of the queen of England might be cool, something to consider is that James V made plays for Marie of Burgundy, Christina of Denmark and even Caterina de Medici to remind the French they owed him a bride.

@LeopoldPhilippe: Eleanor will name at least one son after her brother Charles (she did OTL, but the boy died at just over a year old).

 

[JonasResende]

Something I also wondered after reading through the TL The Prince of the Peace is that there seems to be far less inbreeding between the lines of Habsburg even though there still is a Bohemian and a Burgundian branch. Likewise with the Aviz in Iberia and Naples. Now it could be simply because there are more kids to go around (Mary Tudor, Elizabeth I and Sigismund II all have surviving kids), but AFAIK in said scenario all of Karl V's siblings marry as OTL, with the exception of Katherina (who never gets mentioned).

 

[Janprimus]

Something I also wondered after reading through the TL The Prince of the Peace is that there seems to be far less inbreeding between the lines of Habsburg even though there still is a Bohemian and a Burgundian branch. Likewise with the Aviz in Iberia and Naples. Now it could be simply because there are more kids to go around (Mary Tudor, Elizabeth I and Sigismund II all have surviving kids), but AFAIK in said scenario all of Karl V's siblings marry as OTL, with the exception of Katherina (who never gets mentioned).

Inbreeding wasn't a policy, but a result from a policy. The OTL Habsburg marriages, but also Bourbon marriages come to mind, where a result of trying to keep the 'family alliance' intact. However there can be more considerations too, at times matches can be made to ensure peace or to conclude a peace treaty.

 

[Ladymadchan]

Some thoughts..

If Eleanor marries John instead of Katherine, there's a chance that the House of Aviz lasts longer. Catherine of Austrias was only slightly more lucky with her children than Catherine of Aragon. Catherine of Austrias had 9 children, and only 2 of them made it past early childhood and survived into their teens (and then passed away). She only had two grandchildren, the infamous Don Carlos and Sebastian, both of whom didn't make it 25. Eleanor on the other hand gave birth to only two children, and one them made it into middle age (56 years old).

I suspect that the Katherine was made of stronger stuff than Eleanor. Katherine had remained with her mother Juana under house arrest until she was an adult, but had the strength to be a Regent later on in life. Eleanor on the other hand is known for falling in love, and then not getting along with second spouse, Francis so well...

If Eleanor marries King, I suspect that Catherine will marry France. She was about 17 when Claude passed away and was still relatively young when Francis and Eleanor married in the OTL. If this is her first marriage, she might try to make more use of it than Eleanor. She may try to have children with Francis and might even tried to get some power as a Queen of France or later as a Queen Dowager.

 

[Gonzaga]

Well, if one version of the history is right, Manuel might not remarry at all if Eleanor goes to his son. Apparently, the king was so amazed by her beauty in a portrait that he decided that she should be his wife, and not his son's.

 

[JonasResende]

Just a thought: if Katharina ends up as Queen of France then that could result in the Valois (perhaps) lasting longer than OTL.

Slightly off-topic question: besides the mutual animosity between France and the Habsburgs, why weren't Maria of Viseu and the dauphin married OTL? Both were of age for a marriage to take place from 1533 on. And despite the French feeling Orléans had been wasted to Cathérine de Medicis, the dauphin's only option to marry someone NOT related to the Emperor of sufficient rank, would be a Jagiellon princess or a non-royal German princess.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Just out of curiosity, I've always wondered as to why Eleanor and François' marriage produced no children, and from ladymadchan's post I gather the pair didn't get along so well, what was the actual problem between them (besides probably the comtesse d'Étampes/insert mistress' name here)?

Also, if Katharina were to marry François instead and pop out at least one or two children, is it possible that at some point as a cementing of a treaty, D. Felipe of Spain marries a French princess (i.e. Katharina's daughter) rather than a Portuguese infanta? Esp. since OTL the plan was originally for him to marry either Jeanne d'Albret or Marguerite de Valois, duchesse de Berri (c.1530s).

 

[Ladymadchan]

The marriage between Francis and Eleanor was a condition in a treaty to settle matters after Francis was imprisoned after Pavia. For his freedom, Francis ended up having to surrender his sons to Charles and to give up rights to Burgundy (this stipulation went away in the second treaty, The Treaty of Cambrai). In the end Francis had to surrender the rights to Artois, Flanders, and Tournai, and was obliged to pay a ransom of two million golden écus before his sons were to be released AND marry Eleanor. That's A LOT of bad blood between the sides. And the marriage came with more than its share of political baggage.

It was a second marriage for both, and both of them had children…. I personally think neither one was concerned with making this marriage successful in any way, form or fashion. If anything I wonder if Eleanor was unhappy about being ordered to marry a second time, after having to endure being married to an old man who was essentially her uncle (aunt's husband).

Francis might have ignored Katherine just as well. But I suspect that Katherine would have gone in with a different stake into the marriage, especially if it was her first marriage.

 

[Janprimus]

Renouncing Flanders, Artois and Tournai basically was just acknowledge the de facto situation, especially in exchange for Charles dropping his claims on Burgundy, which also was accepting the de facto situation.
Basically neither made any real territorial concessions.

Francis had exchanged his sons for his own freedom, after all he was the one, who was captured at Pavia. So naturally he had to pay a ransom for their freedom, this doesn't mean he has to like it.

His marriage to Eleonor was in gesture of reconciliation and a symbol of peace, but for Francis she probably reminded him of his failure.
OTOH Charles probably also felt, he hadn't gained enough from his victory at Pavia (no Burgundy).

Successful probably not, though Eleonor probably might have felt, that Francis would at least try to keep up appearances, which he didn't. Though he did at least treat her better than how Charles VIII had treated Margaret of Austria (which is pretty low standard).

I agree, that Catherine might have a different stake, but Francis won't change much.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I must admit, Katherina had several children with her cousin who didn't live through infancy - namely Princes Manuel (1531-1537), Prince Filipe (1533-1539) - I see wikipedia postulates it was most likely due to the inbreeding between the Aviz and the Trastamara-Habsburg dynasties.

That said, François would be more distantly related, so even if she still has a son who is diabetic (OTL Joao Manuel), she should at least be able to leave a surviving line (even if only a female one).

I wonder where her kids might marry? Most likely back into the Habsburg family, and while I'm sure it wouldn't muck out the gene-pool entirely, might go some way to helping?

Another thing: Joao III's melancholia was attributed to his father marrying Leonor instead, and it says that he was never quite the same. How might him getting his intended affect his mental equilibrium?

Thoughts?

 

[Ladymadchan]

I think Katherine having surviving children will help the Hapsburg gene pool. In the OTL, the Habsburgs mated primarily amongst the Spanish Hapsburgs (Charles' line), Austrian line (Ferdinand's) and the Aviz (Katherine's line) until they died out, and then they mainly mated amongst the Austrian and Spanish lines. If Katherine and Eleanor both have surviving children and surviving lines, you can include the French line and hopefully a surviving Aviz line.

If I had to bet, I'd give Katherine and Francis decent odds of having, healthy surviving children (given how distantly related they are) unless Francis' syphillis plays a role. I don't know if Eleanor will do as well though. Her one daughter with Manuel survived. But she's going to be more closely related to Joao (the son of her aunt) than Manuel, so her kids with Joao might have the odds stacked against them surviving due to inbreeding.

About that melancholia of Joao III, didn't his sister Empress Isabella also suffer from depression? If both of them had it, it's pretty suggestive that this could be a manifestation of Trastamara mental illness, suffered by Isabella of Portugal (mother of Isabel of Castille) and Juana la Loca. Kind of surprising that none of Juana's six children were affected by mental illness and her sister Maria's children had issues.

If both of the siblings had a genetic suspectibility, I think Joao III will still have troubles with it (at some point in his life) even if he marries Eleanor as planned.

@Kellan Sullivan: your information about the Aviz is very interesting i.e. the melancholia of Joao III and Joao Manuel having diabetes. I'd like to read about that. Do you have any sources?

 

[JonasResende]

Well, Eleanor might be closely related to Joao, but by the same token, she only had two children by Manuel - a boy who died at just over a year, and a girl who was about fifty.

Yes, the deck is stacked against them - Ferdinand is the only one of Philip the Handsome's children that had an impressive brood of surviving children (I suspect more because he and his wife were more distantly related than his in-laws excepting Isabella and the king of Denmark (who let's face it, 3/5 isn't half bad even if Hans died when he was fourteen)) - but Charles V and Isabella managed at least 3/7 contrasted to Katharina's 2/9.

 

[Ladymadchan]

But Eleanor and Manuel were only married for 3 years, from 1518 to 1521 (the marriage ended with Manuel's death). 2 children in 3 years is pretty decent. Also Eleanor's daughter lived a relatively long life into her fifties. That's pretty close to the lifespan of Phllip the Handsome's children, 5/6 lived at least to their fifties, and some made it to their sixties and seventies. To me, that's pretty suggestive that inbreeding wasn't preventing the two from having healthy children. Eleanor and Manuel were related, but not extraordinarily closely as he was Isabella of Castille's first cousin.