Could the ACW have been delayed until the start of the 20th century?

Wallet

Banned
1861 was the last chance the South had to actually winning. The earlier the war, better their chances. Later, and it's gone. 1870 would be impossible. 1900 is stupid to suggest.

By 1900, the northern population (immigrantion) and industry rivaled the entire planet except Britain and Germany. There's a reason the US was considered a war winner 14 years later. Plus, international opinion is overwhelming opposed to any form of slavey. So no aid to the south.
 
1861 was the last chance the South had to actually winning. The earlier the war, better their chances. Later, and it's gone. 1870 would be impossible. 1900 is stupid to suggest.

By 1900, the northern population (immigrantion) and industry rivaled the entire planet except Britain and Germany. There's a reason the US was considered a war winner 14 years later. Plus, international opinion is overwhelming opposed to any form of slavey. So no aid to the south.


Well, at least you weren't allowed to call it slavery. Forced native labour certainly existed in most colonial empires.

Interesting question is what happens if the South agrees to "abolish" slavery on paper but retains something like the 1865 "Black Codes". Is anyone who matters going to object to this.
 
Well, at least you weren't allowed to call it slavery. Forced native labour certainly existed in most colonial empires.

Interesting question is what happens if the South agrees to "abolish" slavery on paper but retains something like the 1865 "Black Codes". Is anyone who matters going to object to this.

Most likely no. There was intense progress for blacks in the brief reconstruction period but that pretty much reverted when union troops left the south and the fed gov didn't feel like enforcing anything in the south.

So you'd probably jump right to Jim Crow.
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
Most likely no. There was intense progress for blacks in the brief reconstruction period but that pretty much reverted when union troops left the south and the fed gov didn't feel like enforcing anything in the south.

So you'd probably jump right to Jim Crow.

I disagree. Jim Crow, while I could see it to a certain degree, the Solid South of OTL wouldn't be so solid ITTL, especially if you add gradual compensated emancipation to the mix. Much of the hatred that Southern Whites felt towards Freedmen was due to the bitter experiences of the Civil War.

IOTL Freed Slaves were equated to Northern Oppression. If slavery were more amicable and gradual then you'd have much less hate driven racism and more casual racism akin to what's felt towards Mexican Day Laborers or the Irish or the Jews.

In fact many poor Southern Whites didn't really care much for slavery. If you keep the Southern Economy from being too shit then you'd likely have less of a call for Jim Crow.
 
I disagree. Jim Crow, while I could see it to a certain degree, the Solid South of OTL wouldn't be so solid ITTL, especially if you add gradual compensated emancipation to the mix. Much of the hatred that Southern Whites felt towards Freedmen was due to the bitter experiences of the Civil War.

IOTL Freed Slaves were equated to Northern Oppression. If slavery were more amicable and gradual then you'd have much less hate driven racism and more casual racism akin to what's felt towards Mexican Day Laborers or the Irish or the Jews.

In fact many poor Southern Whites didn't really care much for slavery. If you keep the Southern Economy from being too shit then you'd likely have less of a call for Jim Crow.


That's a bit of a sunny view on things. Blacks have had an institutionalized racialized prejudiced that arose specifically from the decades/centuries of slavery to make them others from birth.

The Irish and Jews became "white" in American society, it would never be that simple a transition for blacks civil war or no.

Even in the north there was de-facto segregation faced that lingered much longer for blacks than for the immigrant groups that arrived there.
 
Most likely no. There was intense progress for blacks in the brief reconstruction period but that pretty much reverted when union troops left the south and the fed gov didn't feel like enforcing anything in the south.

So you'd probably jump right to Jim Crow.

No, you would wind up worse than Jim Crow. The Black Codes passed immediately after the ACW were worse. Sharecropping was something Black Freedmen had to fight for because what the former plantation owners wanted was actually worse.
 

RousseauX

Donor
I disagree. Jim Crow, while I could see it to a certain degree, the Solid South of OTL wouldn't be so solid ITTL, especially if you add gradual compensated emancipation to the mix. Much of the hatred that Southern Whites felt towards Freedmen was due to the bitter experiences of the Civil War.

IOTL Freed Slaves were equated to Northern Oppression. If slavery were more amicable and gradual then you'd have much less hate driven racism and more casual racism akin to what's felt towards Mexican Day Laborers or the Irish or the Jews.
Racism and the theory of racial inferiority of blacks rose to justify slavery, not bitterness against northern occupation.

In fact many poor Southern Whites didn't really care much for slavery. If you keep the Southern Economy from being too shit then you'd likely have less of a call for Jim Crow.
poor whites were really racist too and believed the natural order of things was for blacks to remain at the bottom of the social ladder

it was also a phycological thing: even the poorest of whites can point to blacks as inferiors
 
Last edited:
Curious about this. Do you have any links with more information?



I think he's referring to Lemmon vs New York, where a slaveowner travelling from Virginia to Texas stopped off in New York to catch another ship, and the slaves were freed by a New York court.

The reversal of this by the SCOTUS would have upheld the right of slaveholders to travel across free ones with their slaves, so wouldn't exactly legalise slavery in the North, but would have created a loophole allowing southern slaves to be kept in slavery on "free" soil, unless a clear time limit were set on the "sojourn".
 
It was mentioned in James McPherson Battle Cry of freedom pages 180-1. It was Lemmon vs the people. It was not necessary about whither a state law saying that slaves bought within the boundary of New York State is free even if their owner was taking them to a slave state. Abortionist where worried and the book seems to say it was a justified concern that the supreme court might have allowed " some from of slavery" in the north.
 
It is important that the whole legal argument about slavery, including the Dredd Scott decision and more was about property. Because property can not be taken from someone without a good reason and a court finding, the argument was that if someone brought his property (eg: a slave) in to a non-slave state freeing the slave would be an illegal taking of property without justification. Note that taking of property, such as eminent domain for land, fines for money, and even wartime requisition was quite reasonable, although in some cases the owner would be compensated for the property taken. Given that this argument was a basis for the Dredd Scott decision, basically the court found Scott had "stolen" himself from his master and as stolen property needed to be returned, if fully extended it would mean if a slave holder brought his "property" with him from someplace the "property" was legally acquired, it would still remain "property". Slave trading might (or might not) be restricted or forbidden - this would undoubtedly be the issue in a future case as would be the status of children born to slaves in a "free" state - but this could be a major blow to making slavery "universal" in the USA.
 

samcster94

Banned
No, you would wind up worse than Jim Crow. The Black Codes passed immediately after the ACW were worse. Sharecropping was something Black Freedmen had to fight for because what the former plantation owners wanted was actually worse.
No black colleges, no right to vote in non Southern states, literacy rates would have been MUCH worse, no 14th etc ...
 
Well, if slavery goes away peacefully and African-Americans/former slaves are at least considered human and citizens (actual civil rights, no Jim Crow are other issues) and new states are admitted as free and not forced slave constitutions, then no reason at all. While some southern/slave states would probably be willing to see slavery go away in the near future (that is not too long after 1860), and would also be OK with no slave:free admission formula, many southern states and their influential political/social elites would not buy this. If ending slavery was amenable to a peaceful solution in 1860, or in the 10-15 years thereafter there would not have been a civil war, sadly this was not the case.

The idea that there would be civil rights and no jim crow in the post-civil war era enters into the realm of ASB. Everyone on the board can tell you how evil® the south was, but too many forget, conveniently that their own great-great-grandparents in Indiana or New York were just as bad as the evil Southerners® when it came to civil rights for their fellow American who had the misfortune to have different skin pigmentation.

I think one way that the civil war could be avoided is if the boll weevil arrived in the south about 60-70 years earlier, because the price of slaves were largely tied to the price/production of cotton. But to the issue of the latest time that the civil war could happen, I would say either sometime between 1864 and 1872. The reason for this is that I think that the civil war was inevitable (with the caveat of some agricultural disaster, like the boll weevil) once the Whigs collapsed and the Republicans gained in power. Had the Democrats been able to put a unified ticket together in 1860, the south would not have been likely to secede, at least at that time. But a Republican like Lincoln or Fremont winning the election in 1864 or 1868 would trigger the south's knee jerk flinch of secession.

The north's growing economic power and the industrialists determination to break the power that the plantation owners in the south was going to add fuel to the fire, and the Southern planter class was certainly willing to add their fuel to the fire to maintain their own balance of power.

Let's assume that the country gets to 1872, even w/out the civil war, the balance of power would have skewed so much more to the north's side, that saner heads in the south would have seen the futility (and before anyone jumps in an says, but the south was EEEVIL. let me say, They were wrong, but they were not stupid. They seceded in 1861 because they didn't see the balance of power as being so out of whack. Hell, they had 3-4 billion dollars in economic might, wrapped up in chattel slavery, so they thought that they had the economy in 1861 to win a secessionist fight. They were wrong.

anyway, that's just my $0.02
 
Top