Caucasus

[nlspeed]

Is it me, or is the caucasus area a largely 'forgotten' area. I mean, you have Russia or the Golden Horde or such above, various Muslim empires underneath, and this is just the inbetween area that gets annexed by whoever you'd like to have it.

Why is it that this area is so... Well, unimportant, although I suppose that isn't really the right word. I know there was a kingdom of Georgia which arose there and was somewhat powerful, but that's about it, to my knowledge.

 

[Berserker]

Is it me, or is the caucasus area a largely 'forgotten' area. I mean, you have Russia or the Golden Horde or such above, various Muslim empires underneath, and this is just the inbetween area that gets annexed by whoever you'd like to have it.

Why is it that this area is so... Well, unimportant, although I suppose that isn't really the right word. I know there was a kingdom of Georgia which arose there and was somewhat powerful, but that's about it, to my knowledge.

Kingdom of Alania
the Caucasian Iberians and Albanians, Colchis

and I am forgetting a lot

 

[nlspeed]

Oh of course, good points, although I'd say they aren't well known (I suppose most will know Colchis from the Argonauts, but I doubt most people are aware of Iberia or Alania).

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

I've always thought of doing a Caucasian timeline, but I've always been doing other things.

What I know about the Caucasus is that it's inhabited primarily by various 'Nakh' peoples. These people are mostly Muslim, and Islam was brought by travelling Arabs, not conquering Arabs. The mountains kept the area relatively isolated though, so Islam developed there with significance elements of older beliefs, kinda like in rural Albania.

Apparently they mounted stiff resistance against the Russian advance into the area, and were skilled guerrilla fighters. They had a few charismatic Imams try to carve out states. This suggests to me that religious identity was significantly more important to the Caucasians than ethnic, national, or tribal identity, which makes sense, considering how isolated it was from the European concepts of nationality.

They have a long tradition of poetry, apparently. Also, while Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan are considered the Caucasus states, there are lots of Caucasian ethnicities in the Russian federation. Azerbaijan being a Caucasian nation is arguable (its in the same situation as Estonia, being culturally different, but geographically Caucasian).

Basically, there aren't many TLs on it, because Westerners usually don't factor it into their worldview. It's the Russians' playground, the West has never had very many interactions with the Caucasus, and the Russians have suppressed the peoples there. So, a similar situation to remote, largely native-inhabited parts of Mexico.

EDIT: also, North Caucasian Islam was more politically-charged than normal, being used to stiffen defense against the Russians. It's pretty lax, with tobacco and alcohol pretty popular. It's highly syncretic, and they refer to God as Deila, the head of the Vainakh pantheon, rather than as Allah. The Avar imams didnt like Chechens, considering them unreliable. Apparently sharia law clashed with adat, the indigenous law system that the Chechens considered superior.

Highly mystical Naqshbandiism was also very popular, apparently. There aren't many English-language resources on the Caucasus really, and very few books.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

I think there was a virtually independent Circassian Tribal Federation around 1500. Georgia existed for a long time both as an independent kingdom and split in dozens of principalities. Armenia has existed both as an independent kingdom or a vassal state with a lot of self determination several times in history.

And as mentioned Alania. And the pre Georgian states of Albania, Colchis and Iberia. From 780 to 1008 there was an Abkhazian kingdom. Also the Islamic Shirvanshahs ruled in Azerbaijan during the Middle Ages (usually as vassals under a more powerful neighbors though).

 

[nlspeed]

I assume you mean Circassia? That's another interesting nation indeed.

But Armenia isn't really caucasian, is it? Sure, it controlled the southern tip of the caucasus sometime, but Spain wasn't African for controlling Morocco.

Mhm, actually, my definition of caucassian is 'inbetween the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea', but I suppose you could say modern day Armenia is caucasian.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

I assume you mean Circassia? That's another interesting nation indeed.

But Armenia isn't really caucasian, is it? Sure, it controlled the southern tip of the caucasus sometime, but Spain wasn't African for controlling Morocco.

Mhm, actually, my definition of caucassian is 'inbetween the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea', but I suppose you could say modern day Armenia is caucasian.

Firstly; good thread idea! I'm always interested in mountainous areas with lots of different forgotten peoples...!

Secondly; Circassia indeed really a cool one!

Thridly; you can say that Armenia is kind of in between - if you look geographically. Culturally, it has a somewhat own culture... You can also see the cultural region of Armenia on this map and it is shown here too. Anyway, wikipedia does include it here, as "Caucasus".

Fourthly, have a look at this map:

 

[nlspeed]

Yeah, you're right, I was mostly thinking about ancient Armenia (first century BC), which geographically isn't caucassian, I'd say. And as you say, Armenia doesn't really have a 'caucassian culture', so to say.

But I'd say modern Armenia is caucassian, geographically speaking. Culturally, I don't really know. I'm inclined to say no, but I don't know enough to say that in my opinion.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Yeah, you're right, I was mostly thinking about ancient Armenia (first century BC), which geographically isn't caucassian, I'd say. And as you say, Armenia doesn't really have a 'caucassian culture', so to say.

But I'd say modern Armenia is caucassian, geographically speaking. Culturally, I don't really know. I'm inclined to say no, but I don't know enough to say that in my opinion.

If think you're right... And what about the map? I hope it helps.
Perhaps I'll make a map of an alternate history of the Caucasus soon, and I'll let you know when I have finished it.

PS I love this thread

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Here's a map I found, with Circassia, as well as Abkhazia:

PS I subscribed to the thread

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

I requested a map at the "Request maps/flags here"-thread for the Caucasus.
Details are given in the attach below.
I hope I'll receive a map soon, and then I'll post it here too...

 

[RGB]

What I know about the Caucasus is that it's inhabited primarily by various 'Nakh' peoples. These people are mostly Muslim, and Islam was brought by travelling Arabs, not conquering Arabs. The mountains kept the area relatively isolated though, so Islam developed there with significance elements of older beliefs, kinda like in rural Albania.

The Nakhs are a smallish group that boomed only in the late middle ages mostly via assimilating non-Nakh teips.

Their Islam is so syncretic because it was brought to them by missionaries who were interested in ganing allies against Russia and its allies, and realistically that was achieved mostly during the Ottoman period. So identification was more important than orthodoxy.

The Arabs who brought Islam to Daghestan and the Daghestani peoples in the 8th c. were conquerors, not traders. Toponymics clearly supports that argument. But it's also obvious that Islam was the religion of the more advanced civilisation at the time, so the spread was easy.

Apparently they mounted stiff resistance against the Russian advance into the area, and were skilled guerrilla fighters. They had a few charismatic Imams try to carve out states. This suggests to me that religious identity was significantly more important to the Caucasians than ethnic, national, or tribal identity, which makes sense, considering how isolated it was from the European concepts of nationality.

Tribal identity was more important until they faced a strong conqueror that was also of a different religion (Russia). They got along fine with Christian Ossetes who are part of the pan-cis-Caucasian cultural continuity which included the Circassians. Circassians were the trend-setters in general, though the amount of influence from the steppe people also cannot be underestimated.

 

[OS fan]

The area is cut off from the rest of the world, as mountainous as it is, very divided (also because of the terrain), and inhabited by quite resilient people. It is unlikely that a strong empire will emerge there, but a greater power will also have a hard time there.

Areas like these are more interesting as a source for mercenaries - and slaves, which included wives for influential Muslims, including the caliphs and sultans.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Here's a Caucasus map ca. 1490 I just found.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Polities in the Caucasus were always under threat due to their frontier status of often being wedged between vastly more powerful kingdoms and empires. The region or parts of the region saw major conflict between the ERE and the Sassanians, The Khazar Kaghanate and the Caliphate, the Ottomans against the Safavids and the Russian Empire, just to name a few off the top of my head, through the course of history.
Caucasus kingdoms and the like, survived (when they were not outright dominated) by astute diplomacy, by obstinate mountain warrior resistance, or by simply being too small and out of the way to be bothered with.

 

[Tyr]

Blame alternate history/history in general/strategy games particularly, fans obsession with political maps over geographic maps.
Looked at on a map with just a Russian blob and a muslim blob and this little bitty place in between it is a mystery. Looked at properly with the geography though and you see why it was so overlooked through history