CART buys F1 in 1998?

[SealTheRealDeal]

So after it's IPO CART was awash with cash and offered to buy Formula 1 from Bernie Ecclestone.

Revealed: IndyCar’s Predecessor Made Bid To Buy Formula One

The former boss of IndyCar's forerunner has revealed that he made a daring bid to buy Formula One.

www.forbes.com

What if Bernie says yes? Is CART still heading straight for an iceberg? Would CART's leadership try to merge the series, or at least create common technical regs between them?

 

[Whiteshore]

Would CART's leadership try to merge the series, or at least create common technical regs between them?

On that note, what common technical regs/formula would you say would there be if that happened?

 

[Nuraghe]

On that note, what common technical regs/formula would you say would there be if that happened?

almost none since CART like today's Indy used the system of single supply of the chassis or almost ( at the beginning it was dominated by the Lola chassis with some competitors like Peske, Penna, Rahal trying to hinder it from 2002 onwards it became a single brand with use a the Panoz - DP01, the only real difference is the engine manufacturer which ranged from the ever-present Cosworths to Chevrolet, Ford and Honda ) to reduce prices and bring the competition closer ( giving the drivers the same initial conditions more or less the same for everyone )


the differences between the two categories are actually significant :

The cars ran mostly on street circuits, were heavier and longer than those of F1 ( as well as using different types of fuel )
the minimum weight reached 700 kg without a driver, against the 640 kg ( with driver ) of the F1

The Champ Car was looking for the use of ground effect, a limited element in F1 to slow down the increase in performance and for safety reasons
furthermore, driving assistance devices were forbidden, with the exception of the semi-automatic gearbox on the steering wheel, which is very common in the maximum formula


the starts in Cart ( with the exception of the last season of the category in 2007 ) were launched in F1 starting from stationary

The Champ Car exploited the Push to Pass, a mechanism by which the driver supplied his turbo with a greater supercharging which allowed the use of 50 more horsepower by pressing a button, the cars were provided, by regulation, at most 60 seconds of supercharging . this idea was introduced in F1 with some teams in 2009 and only in a stable way from 2011 to 2013, commonly called KERS it was further developed with the advent of hybrid engines from 2014 onwards

now for example let's compare three qualifying flying lap times between F1 and CART / Indy car on the same track and in the same year ( we use 1993, the year in which a certain Nigel Mansell tested both cars ) the track we use for the the comparison is the Detroit racetrack ( used by F1 until 1989 ) Nigel sets the fastest lap in 1:48:08 against his own time on the same track ( driving a Williams - Judd ) of 1'42"897 a 2.2 seconds behind to Ayrton Senna fastest lap in the race




these are the differences that come to me at the moment, however if we want to talk about a merger between the two categories I would suggest a small change at the dawn of the Indy 500 and associates ( since Otl until the end of the 1960s the race was considered an integral part of the F1 championship, even if none of the main participants took any part ( except for rare dazzling appearances, such as Ferrari and Ascari or the Lotus with Jim Clark, it must be emphasized that the situation was similar in the opposite sense ( few Americans took part in a GP that was not Indy in the first 20 years of the world championship )


or make real the threat made by Enzo Ferrari during the fight between FIA - FOCA in 1986 to grind formula one and compete in Indy ( Ferrari had already prepared a car the F - 637 to participate in the following year's championship ) I doubt that Ferrari will really do it ( but it can very well do as nowadays with participation in F1 and WEC )

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

almost none since CART like today's Indy used the system of single supply of the chassis or almost ( at the beginning it was dominated by the Lola chassis with some competitors like Peske, Penna, Rahal trying to hinder it from 2002 onwards it became a single brand with use a the Panoz - DP01, the only real difference is the engine manufacturer which ranged from the ever-present Cosworths to Chevrolet, Ford and Honda ) to reduce prices and bring the competition closer ( giving the drivers the same initial conditions more or less the same for everyone )


the differences between the two categories are actually significant :

The cars ran mostly on street circuits, were heavier and longer than those of F1 ( as well as using different types of fuel )
the minimum weight reached 700 kg without a driver, against the 640 kg ( with driver ) of the F1

The Champ Car was looking for the use of ground effect, a limited element in F1 to slow down the increase in performance and for safety reasons
furthermore, driving assistance devices were forbidden, with the exception of the semi-automatic gearbox on the steering wheel, which is very common in the maximum formula


the starts in Cart ( with the exception of the last season of the category in 2007 ) were launched in F1 starting from stationary

The Champ Car exploited the Push to Pass, a mechanism by which the driver supplied his turbo with a greater supercharging which allowed the use of 50 more horsepower by pressing a button, the cars were provided, by regulation, at most 60 seconds of supercharging . this idea was introduced in F1 with some teams in 2009 and only in a stable way from 2011 to 2013, commonly called KERS it was further developed with the advent of hybrid engines from 2014 onwards

now for example let's compare three qualifying flying lap times between F1 and CART / Indy car on the same track and in the same year ( we use 1993, the year in which a certain Nigel Mansell tested both cars ) the track we use for the the comparison is the Detroit racetrack ( used by F1 until 1989 ) Nigel sets the fastest lap in 1:48:08 against his own time on the same track ( driving a Williams - Judd ) of 1'42"897 a 2.2 seconds behind to Ayrton Senna fastest lap in the race




these are the differences that come to me at the moment, however if we want to talk about a merger between the two categories I would suggest a small change at the dawn of the Indy 500 and associates ( since Otl until the end of the 1960s the race was considered an integral part of the F1 championship, even if none of the main participants took any part ( except for rare dazzling appearances, such as Ferrari and Ascari or the Lotus with Jim Clark, it must be emphasized that the situation was similar in the opposite sense ( few Americans took part in a GP that was not Indy in the first 20 years of the world championship )


or make real the threat made by Enzo Ferrari during the fight between FIA - FOCA in 1986 to grind formula one and compete in Indy ( Ferrari had already prepared a car the F - 637 to participate in the following year's championship ) I doubt that Ferrari will really do it ( but it can very well do as nowadays with participation in F1 and WEC )

The spec chassis doesn't strictly preclude a common formula. Theoretically CART could use a spec chassis built to comply with Formula 1 technical regs. Also, the attempt to buy F1 was back in '98 when CART was still allowing multiple chassis constructors. So an interesting possibility would be F1's new owners re-allowing full customer cars as F1 had up until the early 80s. That said I think it's unlikely there'd be a common chassis/aero formula.

What seems more likely imo would be a common engine formula to increase engine diversity in both fields. That's something the engine constructors that are involved in both series (iirc in '98 that'd be Mercedes, Honda, and Ford) would likely push for as a matter of economy.

 

[Nuraghe]

The spec chassis doesn't strictly preclude a common formula. Theoretically CART could use a spec chassis built to comply with Formula 1 technical regs. Also, the attempt to buy F1 was back in '98 when CART was still allowing multiple chassis constructors. So an interesting possibility would be F1's new owners re-allowing full customer cars as F1 had up until the early 80s. That said I think it's unlikely there'd be a common chassis/aero formula.

What seems more likely imo would be a common engine formula to increase engine diversity in both fields. That's something the engine constructors that are involved in both series (iirc in '98 that'd be Mercedes, Honda, and Ford) would likely push for as a matter of economy.

basically an earlier version of Max Mosley's 2010 idea to let small teams enter the top flight ( if I understand correctly ?, or do you mean the timeless idea of third cars to be sold to medium - ranking teams ? ) well surely Ford he will have no problems passing information between the two series ( given the immense use of the Cosworths by the smaller F1 teams ) I don't know if the same can be said for Chevrolet instead ?

I'm not very convinced of the limitations or standardization of the engine component but in theory the number of engines to be used per season could be limited like Otl

then Dallara can try too eh !

but the real question would be which teams would have both the technical and economic capabilities to stay in this new category born from the merger between F1 and CART ? with the former clearly a little more prestigious globally ( I think it will be more an assimilation of buyers to F1 than vice versa ) Andretti and Penske for sure, maybe even Haas but for the rest I doubt that the other Cart teams will do better than the small F1 teams like Minardi, Jordan, Arrows, Sauber ( of course they can do much better than the various Andrea Modena, HRT, ect )

 

[Whiteshore]

given the immense use of the Cosworths by the smaller F1 teams

By 1998, only three teams (Stewart, Tyrrell, and Minardi) were using Cosworths, with Arrows trying to make their own engine (actually, they were Hart V10s maintained by Arrows, but yeah) while Williams and Benetton used year-old Renaults and Prost and Jordan were using Peugeots and Mugens respectively.

 

[Nuraghe]

By 1998, only three teams (Stewart, Tyrrell, and Minardi) were using Cosworths, with Arrows trying to make their own engine (actually, they were Hart V10s maintained by Arrows, but yeah) while Williams and Benetton used year-old Renaults and Prost and Jordan were using Peugeots and Mugens respectively.

very true, but we are still talking about a very reliable engine, at low cost and with good performance if it was developed naturally ( it was also used in various versions until 2012 if I'm not mistaken ) so I see its mass use again, given that it adapts very well to ability of a small team

oh well Minardi was screwed too many times by the wrong engine supplies ( the only good times were when it used the lambo engines and then Ferrari, but unfortunately it didn't have the money to develop them together with the car ) the same thing goes for Forti ( good team of engineers, interesting project, very little funding )

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

basically an earlier version of Max Mosley's 2010 idea to let small teams enter the top flight ( if I understand correctly ?, or do you mean the timeless idea of third cars to be sold to medium - ranking teams ? ) well surely Ford he will have no problems passing information between the two series ( given the immense use of the Cosworths by the smaller F1 teams ) I don't know if the same can be said for Chevrolet instead ?

I'm not very convinced of the limitations or standardization of the engine component but in theory the number of engines to be used per season could be limited like Otl

then Dallara can try too eh !

but the real question would be which teams would have both the technical and economic capabilities to stay in this new category born from the merger between F1 and CART ? with the former clearly a little more prestigious globally ( I think it will be more an assimilation of buyers to F1 than vice versa ) Andretti and Penske for sure, maybe even Haas but for the rest I doubt that the other Cart teams will do better than the small F1 teams like Minardi, Jordan, Arrows, Sauber ( of course they can do much better than the various Andrea Modena, HRT, ect )

A merged series could end up looking like Mosely's proposal for an F1 that contained a lot of spec elements (though still stopped short of being a spec series).

Though wrt customer cars I was thinking more like 70s F1 where there were teams buying Lotuses and McLarens to race, or like the 2007(?) proposal for Prodrive to joined the grid with a 3rd and 4th McLaren as their cars. Even if it doesn't become allowed in F1, if CART and F1 have a common technical reg-set then (since 90s CART was open to customer cars) a CART team could source their car from an F1 team instead of from Panoz or Dallara or the like.

Again though I think common engine regs would be more likely than full common technical regs. F1 would definately have to make some compromises to CART for the common engine regs (namely increased engine longevity and lower cost) so I think even that would probably be put off until the manufacturer boom of the 2000s busts.

 

[El Pip]

If the CART boss genuinely thought he had a shot at buying F1 I understand why it went to the wall. CART was worth at best $300 million based on its IPO and even that is an optimistic valuation on $25 million pre tax profit. Even in 1999 F1 was valued at $2 billion, it was in a different league money wise.

He claims he could borrow, but who in earth would lend him the money? Bernie buying CART with lose change from F1 is more likely, but even then why?

 

[Whiteshore]

Honestly, what would be interesting would be the impact of the CART purchase of F1 on the CART-IRL Split here.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Honestly, what would be interesting would be the impact of the CART purchase of F1 on the CART-IRL Split here.

I don't think CART can win. The IRL had a lower barrier to entry, the marque event, typically offered a better product on track, and was financially stable.

CART probably survives though. So long as it has F1 under it's thumb then the worst that can happen is it becomes a spring board to F1, and that will maintain a "floor" for interest in the series.

 

[El Pip]

the worst that can happen is it becomes a spring board to F1, and that will maintain a "floor" for interest in the series.

The official F1 feeder series has been through at least three re-brandings (F3000, GP2, Formula 2) in the last couple of decades as it's constantly struggled. It works very well as a feeder with plenty of drivers progressing to F1, financially it remains a disaster. Crowds are tiny except when it shares a day with an F1 race, TV rights are virtually nothing (given away free with the main F1 rights in most markets) and the drivers are expected to foot the entire cost of running their car through 'personal wealth' or advertising they bring with them. Given CART can, at best, be the US feeder so the 'floor' is so low it's a basement.

Also this has only happened as Bernie, for all his many faults, is long term greedy and so sees the value in getting new drivers from new markets coming into F1, so is prepared to cross-subsidise the feeder series, by packaging up the TV rights and letting it be a support race to the F1 events, etc. If CART has borrowed $2 billion+ to buy F1 it is beholden to the private equity types who loaned it the money, and those people are short term obsessed at the best of times. Expect all that to get culled in the desperate efforts to make enough short term cash to cover the massive debts.

 

[Nuraghe]

another detail that I see happening from the merger of the two categories is the attempt to sponsor the careers of promising young American drivers in the formula 1 teams (considering that a couple of years later the Dixon pod had tested for McLaren and Williams Otl, also doing well, as well as Michael Andretti who may return and of course rising star Montoya ect ) also the new management will push for an expansion of the calendar with the addition of one or two races in North America (in short, as liberty Media currently) so where will these new races be held?