AHC: Improve the defence of the Philippines during WW 2.

[McPherson]

Were any nations selling anything good in 1938? Like the first-rate tanks, ships and planes are going straight into the inventories of great powers preparing for war, so anything the Philippines could afford would be totally useless in 1942 campaigns. Did the Philippine Commonwealth Army want for surplus World War 1 small arms and obsolescent light artillery? Because I think that's all that was available.

The source of supply would strictly be the United States. No way was any British kit going to be allowed to snarl up the US supply chain.

But the question was there available kit available for the Philippine Commonwealth?

As long as one keeps the supply simple and robust?
1. Pattern 1917 rifles with suitable sharp pointy bayonety type thingies.
2. 8.1 cm smoothbore mortars.
3. 7.5 cm mountain guns (75 mm Pack Howitzer M1 / M116)
4. Browning 0.303 machine guns.
5. Mules, of the generic Colorado variety, stubborn.
6. Drill sergeants recently retired, preferably speaking Tagalog complete with the usual motivational obscenities for recruit motivation and a size ten boot motivator attachment.
7. B-18 Bolos with working bombs and working Filipino air/ground crews and pilots.
8. P-35s with working machine guns and working Filipino air/ground crews and pilots.
9. Anyone qualified except Quezon in charge of the Filipino government.
10. SCR 300s
11. Killing MacArthur does not solve the command problem. Killing any bonehead actually does not solve the problem. Vincente Lim can go a long way towards solving the command problem.

 

[Slime_blob]

9. Anyone qualified except Quezon in charge of the Filipino government.

That is pro American and staunchly anti Japanese, so they wont switch sides, well if a President other than Quezon becomes president lets say Roxas or Osmena or Quirino, what will happen is they will just switch sides join the japanese then switch sides again when the US is winning

 

[McPherson]

That is pro American and staunchly anti Japanese, so they wont switch sides, well if a President other than Quezon becomes president lets say Roxas or Osmena or Quirino, what will happen is they will just switch sides join the japanese then switch sides again when the US is winning

1. Roxas is "acceptable".
2. Quezon is "incompetent" and weak.
3. Elpidio Quirino is "acceptable".
4. José P. Laurel should have been imprisoned.

 

[SOAWWIISoldier]

An SI into Quezon on 1/1/40 is something I’d read. I can’t write!

 

[Gillan1220]

I remember writing this AHC scenario last year:

AHC: Prevent the Philippines from falling to the Japanese during WWII

Whether its reinforcing the PI early in the war, deploying more B-17s, or at least more USN submarines in the region, How will these prevent the Japanese conquest of the Philippines?

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[La Rouge Beret]

The source of supply would strictly be the United States. No way was any British kit going to be allowed to snarl up the US supply chain.

But the question was there available kit available for the Philippine Commonwealth?

As long as one keeps the supply simple and robust?
1. Pattern 1917 rifles with suitable sharp pointy bayonety type thingies.
2. 8.1 cm smoothbore mortars.
3. 7.5 cm mountain guns (75 mm Pack Howitzer M1 / M116)
4. Browning 0.303 machine guns.
5. Mules, of the generic Colorado variety, stubborn.
6. Drill sergeants recently retired, preferably speaking Tagalog complete with the usual motivational obscenities for recruit motivation and a size ten boot motivator attachment.
7. B-18 Bolos with working bombs and working Filipino air/ground crews and pilots.
8. P-35s with working machine guns and working Filipino air/ground crews and pilots.
9. Anyone qualified except Quezon in charge of the Filipino government.
10. SCR 300s
11. Killing MacArthur does not solve the command problem. Killing any bonehead actually does not solve the problem. Vincente Lim can go a long way towards solving the command problem.

I agree with all of the above points and Vicente Lim from everything I read was the hero that the PI needed.

The question I have can the Philippine Commonwealth & the American forces conduct an equivalent of the Louisiana Manoeuvers to identify their operational & administrative shortcomings. The second question is what is the POD needed for that to occur?

1. Roxas is "acceptable".
2. Quezon is "incompetent" and weak.
3. Elpidio Quirino is "acceptable".
4. José P. Laurel should have been imprisoned.

Jose P Laurel should have faced treason charges for his collaboration with the Japanese during their occupation. There were also rumours that he was the biological father of Ferdinand Marcos, which if true might explain Marcos penchant for looking after himself.

What about Sergio Osmena as a candidate?

 

[Slime_blob]

1. Roxas is "acceptable".

Basically he collaborated with the Japanese and became one of the highest ranking collaborators then decided to blackmail MacArthur because of his corruption schemes in PI. Roxas is no friend of the Americans, he only decided to do what they want because he is desperate for funds to rebuild the Philippines after WW2. That is why they decided to even go indepedent when they had a choice on either free PI now or later. He leans where he believes he serves best

3. Elpidio Quirino is "acceptable".

Leans to the winning side, ally of Roxas. US blackmailed him IOTL just to agree on some policies during his presidency which are unpopular.

4. José P. Laurel should have been imprisoned.

I dont think so Quezon basically said to them to collaborate with the Japanese before he leaves. He did try to better the situation but the Japanese made it so hard that it is almost impossible due to their awful occupation policies which made life very hard.

What about Sergio Osmena as a candidate?

Osmena is Quezon like?

 

[ThirdyLovesAH]

4. José P. Laurel should have been imprisoned

He was ordered to meet the Japanese after the invasion, though he tried to make things easier (He barred any Japanese Advisors in Malacanang) but the Japanese were brutal

 

[McPherson]

Basically he collaborated with the Japanese and became one of the highest ranking collaborators then decided to blackmail MacArthur because of his corruption schemes in PI. Roxas is no friend of the Americans, he only decided to do what they want because he is desperate for funds to rebuild the Philippines after WW2. That is why they decided to even go independent when they had a choice on either free PI now or later. He leans where he believes he serves best.

I will have something to say about the sons and grandsons of "illustrados" in a moment.

Leans to the winning side, ally of Roxas. US blackmailed him IOTL just to agree on some policies during his presidency which are unpopular.

And?

I don't think so Quezon basically said to them to collaborate with the Japanese before he leaves. He did try to better the situation but the Japanese made it so hard that it is almost impossible due to their awful occupation policies which made life very hard.

Look... Roxas and Quirino knew about the American occupation of "their" country, the ambush and double-cross of Aguinaldo and the ferocious Filipino-American War. were a part of their parent's lives and struggles and passed on to them. They lesson learned as politicians from such history. To expect the average "Illustrado" to be pro-American without very good and sufficient reason, was kind of optimistic then and kind of not a correct view of true Filipino history now. Not many Americans like to read that in the "specific case" (And I mean the specific Filipino case, because I am not about to stray into "whataboutism" with comparisons to other examples.), the mindset of many of the Filipino upper classes and intelligentsias, was not favorably disposed toward a certain specific nation, who they still regarded as colonial imperialist interlopers and exploiters of "their" country. It is not easy to understand that the Filipinos and Filipinas were trying to attain their independence from that aforesaid nation and were dancing an economic and political tightrope toward that goal in the late 1930s (There was a complex tariffs question which would be of tremendous negative economic impact on the Philippine Islands if the Filipino politicians did not handle the American Congress just right, and yes I mean that racist Wilsonian type rat bastard element of the American political class in that body of unreconstructed reprobates.). This actually sidereal fashion can explain the MacArthur bribes, for example, from a certain point of view as a "customary service payment" to secure a "patron" who would feel an obligation and see things the Filipino way. It paid off at the Pearl Harbor Conference with FDR and Nimitz; when MacArthur went to bat for the Philippine Islands axis of approach and argued that case. It is revealed in hard results in the 1944-1945 Philippine Islands liberation campaign. If Roxas ansd Quirino used such well understood tactics and even the weak Quezon, who bribed MacArthur for a ticket out of the trap, then who is to say that they played their hands in anything less than a Filipino centric objectives way? WHY should their motives, seen in what was the best for the Filipinos as these men, judged at the moment, not be accepted as the pragmatism it was? With that understandable viewpoint which the AMERICANS of the time knew, now can one see what I mean by "acceptable"? Moral, loyal in a patriotic sense to America, or "pro American" has nothing to do with "politics is business and patronage" and one must deal with the business and patronage at hand.

Osmena is Quezon like?

Kind of; but more reliable.

 

[McPherson]

He was ordered to meet the Japanese after the invasion, though he tried to make things easier (He barred any Japanese Advisors in Malacanang) but the Japanese were brutal

As an American I have a SOUR view of Laurel, since his borderline cooperation with the Japanese was too cozy from my viewpoint. Filipinos had/have a more forgiving outlook, seeing his "treason" as more mere political extemporizing until the Japanese could be thrown out and the Americans negotiated out. Laurel negotiated the trade treaty that went a long way toward negotiating the Americans out.

 

[Slime_blob]

As an American I have a SOUR view of Laurel, since his borderline cooperation with the Japanese was too cozy from my viewpoint. Filipinos had/have a more forgiving outlook, seeing his "treason" as more mere political extemporizing until the Japanese could be thrown out and the Americans negotiated out. Laurel negotiated the trade treaty that went a long way toward negotiating the Americans out.

That treaty is the result of the blackmail of the US to Quirino. Have the US not blackmail instead support him will result into Japan having to pay huge reparations to the Philippines and other countries. Where the Filipinos felt really betrayed when the US decides to help Japan more compared to them

 

[McPherson]

That treaty is the result of the blackmail of the US to Quirino. Have the US not blackmail instead support him will result into Japan having to pay huge reparations to the Philippines and other countries

Has one forgotten the composite situation? There was little blackmail actually involved when the Korean War is the immediate backdrop and geopolitical driver to the US logic explained to Quirino and to the Philippine Third Republic. That logic meant the US would have to convince the Philippine Republic that unless they wanted a repeat of 1941-1945, the Japanese have to be rehabilitated. The "cost of doing business" as the Illustrados would understand it, was this foregoing of Japanese reparations and the acceptance of US aid instead to compensate for US caused damage as a poorer substitution. It was not "fair" from the Philippines Republic point of view, but then the US was doing the same thing in Europe with regards to Germany, shorting France and the UK and Poland and the Benelux and other victim nations. There was the Treaty of Versailles Lesson Learned and the quite real fear of a renewed phase of World War with a new line-up of enemies.

It was expected from the Americans. It was not fair, not just, but as a fact of life, necessary. And Quirino knew it.

 

[Slime_blob]

It was expected from the Americans. It was not fair, not just, but as a fact of life, necessary. And Quirino knew it.

You do know that his family is killed by Japanese war criminals. He was basically forced to do it by the US even against his wish or the US cuts of aid or idk some sort of blackmail

 

[McPherson]

You do know that his family is killed by Japanese war criminals. He was basically forced to do it by the US even against his wish or the US cuts of aid or idk some sort of blackmail

With the situation as I outlined it? Does one understand that it does not matter what happened to his family? He was dealing with a nation that was looking globally at the macros across the wreckage of a recent world war. If they had to grind him down with "extortion" or coerced persuasion to achieve their global goals, well this was the same nation that tossed Aguinaldo into a prison on Guam and kept him there until he got with the American program. It was "business and patronage" with the Americans applying the leverage.

 

[Gillan1220]

Has one forgotten the composite situation? There was little blackmail actually involved when the Korean War is the immediate backdrop and geopolitical driver to the US logic explained to Quirino and to the Philippine Third Republic. That logic meant the US would have to convince the Philippine Republic that unless they wanted a repeat of 1941-1945, the Japanese have to be rehabilitated. The "cost of doing business" as the Illustrados would understand it, was this foregoing of Japanese reparations and the acceptance of US aid instead to compensate for US caused damage as a poorer substitution. It was not "fair" from the Philippines Republic point of view, but then the US was doing the same thing in Europe with regards to Germany, shorting France and the UK and Poland and the Benelux and other victim nations. There was the Treaty of Versailles Lesson Learned and the quite real fear of a renewed phase of World War with a new line-up of enemies.

It was expected from the Americans. It was not fair, not just, but as a fact of life, necessary. And Quirino knew it.

You do know that his family is killed by Japanese war criminals. He was basically forced to do it by the US even against his wish or the US cuts of aid or idk some sort of blackmail

The change in post-WWII geopolitics is the main driver here of this U.S. foreign policy. The Huks intensified their insurgency, China became Red, and Korea was about to fall to communism.

So it would be natural the U.S. would pressure Quirino to their demands as a bulwark against the spread of communism.

 

[Crowbar Six]

Wasn't there a too frequent of a problem with small arms ammunition that had deteriorated in the Philippine humidity and heat over time? If so, get that ammo replaced. That should be a comparatively cheap fix.

Also, while not a decisive change, how about a "Phen" SMG, for distribution to the Philippine second-line troops and militias? Easy and cheap to make That type of weapon would be useful in boht jungle engagements and urban fights.

Break the fighting commands up into two or three regional entities: Luzon, Visayas, Mindanao? Would that allow for a longer fight?

Most western militaries had a limited understanding of the efficacy of SMG' pre 1940. The UK for example derided them as gangster weapons until they gained 1st hand experience of how useful they were in France at which point the UK is buying up as many Thompson M1928's at $200 a gun (in 1940 dollars!) as they can and designing the STEN. The US marines bought some Thompsons but I don't think the Army was even thinking about them before 1941. The only ready source of SMG's outside the Axis would be Switzerland, and those are all very complex and expensive weapons, they are all well made weapons full of expensive machining or Swedish copies of the Suomi and they are made under license . There aren't many of those and the US would likely demand weapons in .45 which would require development of a US specific version.

The Japanese logically should have bought SMG's in quantity, they are ideal in jungle warfare or BUA yet never did, instead they issued a limited number to paratroopers and never considered them as a general issue weapon.

So first you would need to get someone to recognise the utility of the SMG, you would need someone to design a useable weapon and then arrange local production of the gun. There is limited local production capacity so the number of weapons they could produce would be limited and if they tried to get the US Ordnance department pre-war to design one it would likely be a weapon full of carefully machined components and still cost as much as a Thompson M1928. It is only once they recognize the usefulness of cheap welded/stamped bullet hoses would you get an easily produced weapon like a STEN or a M3.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The Philippine campaign (1941 - 1942) commencing with the invasion of the Philippines by Imperial Japan in December 1941 to the fall of Corregidor in May 1942 is regarded as a significant defeat in American military history.

(Above maps sourced from wikipedia article)

With a POD after December 1940 what practical changes could be made to improve the defence of the Philippines both from the Philippine perspective & USAAFE against the threat posed by Imperial Japan? Is there an ability to create a local supply chain for consumables like small arms ammunition, stockpiling supplies and what would an improved training regime look like for the Philippine Army & the US Army forces within theatre? Could the Asiatic Fleet be used more effectively.

Money, more Money and even more money

I mean OTL the rifles supplied were WW1 M1917 Enfield's with worn out magazine springs!

As bolt action rifles go - the 'Enfield' was a great rifle but the issues experienced basically turned many of them into single shot rifle i.e. not magazine fed repeaters

If the issue was known about earlier then it could have been dealt with possibly by local industry - I seem to recall that there was a lack of 'stripper clips' - again this seems to be 'low hanging fruit' regarding a resolution.

I also seem to recall that they lacked motor transport and enough machine guns and mortars etc

Not nearly enough Artillery and radios etc - the equipment supplied was about 20% of requirement - this needs to be addressed along with having sufficient motor transport

An Idea might have been to build the Philippines Divisions like the pre war and early war Indian Army Divisions - that is have each Brigade with 1 US and 2 Philippines Battalions.

So 12 PH Divisions with the 10 Reserve formations reinforced with 30 US battalions 'to stiffen them with white troops' (using the somewhat racist language of the day) and to help train them.

At least 3 battalions of tanks would also be required - even if they were M2s or M2s

However getting 30 US battalions in time (and we are looking at 1940 at the latest) and 150-200 tanks and their crews might be a big ask!

All of this requires a change in US attitudes earlier, with an earlier ramp up of US armament industries and Money, Money, Money

12 Properly trained and equipped divisions (1st Regular, 2nd constabulary and the 10 reserve divisions) and their supporting arms with large numbers of 'embeded' US troops would have been far too much for the 2 odd Japanese divisions originally involved (16th and 48th) to deal with in late 41/42.

 

[Gillan1220]

There was this book in my school library called The Fall of the Philippines. One of the issues too is the lack of English speakers among the Filipino soldiers, thus making coordination with American officers harder. Plus, all those surplus uniforms and boots from WWI were known to wear out rather quickly (~2 weeks in the tropical forests). There were already over 1,000 units of M1 Garands in the Philippines prior to December 8th, but these were issued to selected USAFFE units and the Philippine Scouts.

 

[1Big Rich]

Money, more Money and even more money

I mean OTL the rifles supplied were WW1 M1917 Enfield's with worn out magazine springs!

As bolt action rifles go - the 'Enfield' was a great rifle but the issues experienced basically turned many of them into single shot rifle i.e. not magazine fed repeaters

If the issue was known about earlier then it could have been dealt with possibly by local industry - I seem to recall that there was a lack of 'stripper clips' - again this seems to be 'low hanging fruit' regarding a resolution.

I also seem to recall that they lacked motor transport and enough machine guns and mortars etc

Not nearly enough Artillery and radios etc - the equipment supplied was about 20% of requirement - this needs to be addressed along with having sufficient motor transport

An Idea might have been to build the Philippines Divisions like the pre war and early war Indian Army Divisions - that is have each Brigade with 1 US and 2 Philippines Battalions.

So 12 PH Divisions with the 10 Reserve formations reinforced with 30 US battalions 'to stiffen them with white troops' (using the somewhat racist language of the day) and to help train them.

At least 3 battalions of tanks would also be required - even if they were M2s or M2s

However getting 30 US battalions in time (and we are looking at 1940 at the latest) and 150-200 tanks and their crews might be a big ask!

All of this requires a change in US attitudes earlier, with an earlier ramp up of US armament industries and Money, Money, Money

12 Properly trained and equipped divisions (1st Regular, 2nd constabulary and the 10 reserve divisions) and their supporting arms with large numbers of 'embeded' US troops would have been far too much for the 2 odd Japanese divisions originally involved (16th and 48th) to deal with in late 41/42.

@La Rouge Beret,

I think Cryhavoc101 has it summed up for the land side here.

The only thing I would add is follow the original plan, turn the Bataan peninsula into a fortress. Drain the swamps to cut malaria, build airfields, stockpile supplies, etc. I'm not sure the Philippines can be successfully defended against the Japanese given the proximity to Japan and Japanese territory, but it can be defended better than historically. A fighting withdrawal and fortress Bataan that can hold out for 6 months or so with fighter cover could make things very costly for the Japanese army.

On the air side, perhaps more fighters, more heavy bomber and throw in some medium bombers like A-20s.

On the naval side, more airpower as well. Patrol planes, even obsolete ones for more reconnaissance, navy fighters to defend Cavite and naval forces. Perhaps some of the four pipers that went to the UK could be sent to the Philippines if activated. At least they Mk 8 torpedoes that actually work.

Leadership is an issue. Tommy Hart seemed to grasp the situation, McArthur and Brereton no so much.

My thoughts,

 

[marathag]

There were not enough rifles period, let alone new M1s, or M1903 or worn out M1917
Rather than 'No Rifles' buy surplus Krags for a Dollar apiece and buy new ammo from Winchester or Remington-Peters, since it was still in use for deer rifles, so everyone gets a rifle that they can actually practice shooting, rather than OTL being armed with homemade 12ga slam fire shotguns