AHC: A Portuguese *Canadá?

[Dan1988]

Apparently, around the 1400s and 1500s there were Portuguese explorers who were around the area of the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Grand Banks (in fact, the region of Labrador is named for such an explorer), but they never took advantage of it. So what would it take to have at least most of what we view now as Canada (or at least, in its core area, New France in its entirety plus Newfoundland) become part of the Portuguese Empire?

Bonus points if *Terra de Rupert (Rupert's Land) is part of the package.

Double bonus points if *Nova Inglaterra (New England) is included.

Triple bonus points if the Upstate parts of *Nova Iorque (New York State) are included.

 

[miguelrj]

It's an ambitious challenge. To fully fulfill it we'd have to get rid of Brazil because there's no way that Portugal is going to keep all of those proposed territories with a lightly settled colony and population-wise Portugal was strained as it was. We must also get rid of the Treaty of Tordesillas...

From the Azores to Newfoundland it's a leap. It's far from unimaginable to have the Portuguese reach the island in the mid-1400s and actually decide to settle it for the fisheries... Rival claimants wouldn't swarm in so quickly and before Europe realizes there's a whole continent to exploit (no news of 'goooold'), Portugal commits with more settlements in the mainland. That would give it an edge.
Oh and - unlike Brazil - Canada is not conveniently located near the route of the real deal that is India. This Portugal would be really stretched out...

With a later PoD (up to the mid-1500s) we can also have a Portuguese Newfoundland, even with the Treaty of Tordesillas in place. But that colony can't expand much further...

 

[Dan1988]

Is the Treaty of Tordesillas that important an obstacle for a Portuguese Canada? Never really noticed. And would it affect the Anglo-Portuguese alliance?

With a later PoD (up to the mid-1500s) we can also have a Portuguese Newfoundland, even with the Treaty of Tordesillas in place. But that colony can't expand much further...

Even if goes north towards Labrador?

 

[pa_dutch]

I've always imagined a Portuguese-settled Newfoundland would be called Bacalao.

 

[miguelrj]

Is the Treaty of Tordesillas that important an obstacle for a Portuguese Canada? Never really noticed.

Portugal and Spain took it seriously. Spain didn't care about Canada but it fell on its half of the world and it would object if Portugal was to establish colonies there. If it's something small like Newfoundland and Labrador, I can see Spain not minding and giving it away to Portugal in some treaty.

And would it affect the Anglo-Portuguese alliance?

Not necessarily. England doesn't necessarily have to covet Portuguese Canada ITTL, the world is a big place.

Even if goes north towards Labrador?

I had Labrador in mind as a possible expansion. I can't see Portugal actually settling in Labrador but since it was discovered by a Portuguese I can see Portugal calling dibs on it while everyone shrugs and goes "sure, keep that frozen backyard and have fun". Not unlike Denmark-Norway vis-à-vis Greenland.

 

[miguelrj]

I've always imagined a Portuguese-settled Newfoundland would be called Bacalao.

The Portuguese named it Terra Nova (New Land) and we still call it that.
Considering the Portuguese fetish with codfish/bacalhau, it's surprising that that fish isn't in any waters that was ever controled by Portugal.

 

[Dan1988]

Portugal and Spain took it seriously. Spain didn't care about Canada but it fell on its half of the world and it would object if Portugal was to establish colonies there. If it's something small like Newfoundland and Labrador, I can see Spain not minding and giving it away to Portugal in some treaty.

Wow - that's very interesting. So no Treaty of Tordesillas in TTL it is.

Not necessarily. England doesn't necessarily have to covet Portuguese Canada ITTL, the world is a big place.

Good. So at least it's more "safe" than New France in OTL.

I had Labrador in mind as a possible expansion. I can't see Portugal actually settling in Labrador but since it was discovered by a Portuguese I can see Portugal calling dibs on it while everyone shrugs and goes "sure, keep that frozen backyard and have fun". Not unlike Denmark-Norway vis-à-vis Greenland.

Of course.

The Portuguese named it Terra Nova (New Land) and we still call it that.
Considering the Portuguese fetish with codfish/bacalhau, it's surprising that that fish isn't in any waters that was ever controled by Portugal.

I quite agree.

 

[Dan1988]

Any other contenders?

 

[Brainbin]

I'm inclined to agree with the consensus that Newfoundland is far and away the likeliest part of Canada to become - and remain - Portuguese; the irony being that it was never part of Canada until 1949 IOTL I really don't see them staking a foothold in Canada proper, because there's nothing there of any value to them.

 

[Heisenberg]

I don't agree that Portugal can keep Newfoundland easily. It was disputed between England/UK and France until 1904. The fisheries there were exceedingly valuable, not just for the fish themselves, but because of the great training it made for the navies, particularly the Marine Nationale. It's not outside the realm of possibility that it becomes a Portuguese possession, but they're going to have to actively fight the English and French for it.

Labrador is easier, as there indeed wasn't much interest there. The Basques did build a bunch of whaling outposts in Labrador, so a Portugal more interested in the area could easily do the same, but I don't know if the Portuguese were big on the whaling business.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I've always imagined a Portuguese-settled Newfoundland would be called Bacalao.

No doubt using the motto "In Cod WeTrust"....

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Seriously, the French totally ignored the Treaty of Tordesillas, the Portuguese might be able to, too.

If they put a couple thousand farmers on shore over the next century, they might well survive. Its what France did, after all. The founding population of Quebec was only about 2500....

 

[miguelrj]

I don't agree that Portugal can keep Newfoundland easily. It was disputed between England/UK and France until 1904.

Possibly, yes. But the Portuguese were quick to settle the Atlantic islands and Brazil and we had to wait until the 1600s for the English and French to follow suit in the Americas. An ATL where the Portuguese are already entrenched in Newfoundland give them a considerable edge. It will at least divert OTL's English and French first attempts to settle the island to somewhere else.

The fisheries there were exceedingly valuable, not just for the fish themselves, but because of the great training it made for the navies, particularly the Marine Nationale.

Interesting.

 

[miguelrj]

No doubt using the motto "In Cod WeTrust"....

*bows with deference*

Seriously, the French totally ignored the Treaty of Tordesillas, the Portuguese might be able to, too.

If they put a couple thousand farmers on shore over the next century, they might well survive. Its what France did, after all. The founding population of Quebec was only about 2500....

They weren't signatory of the treaty so they had every right to ignore it. Francis I of France is even said to have asked for "Adam's will" to check if there was any mention there that the world should be divided between the Portuguese and the Spaniards.

If the Portuguese choose to bluntly ignore the treaty, they could expect full reciprocity from Spain and they didn't want that.

But given that Newfoundland is near the Tordesillas border, it's easy to conceive a TL where the Portuguese establish there in the 1500s (possibly claiming that Avalon is on their side through imprecise measurements) and later have its presence there legitimized by the more southern-focused Spaniards.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

They weren't signatory of the treaty so they had every right to ignore it. Francis I of France is even said to have asked for "Adam's will" to check if there was any mention there that the world should be divided between the Portuguese and the Spaniards.

If the Portuguese choose to bluntly ignore the treaty, they could expect full reciprocity from Spain and they didn't want that.

But given that Newfoundland is near the Tordesillas border, it's easy to conceive a TL where the Portuguese establish there in the 1500s (possibly claiming that Avalon is on their side through imprecise measurements) and later have its presence there legitimized by the more southern-focused Spaniards.

Hmmm.... if the Avalon Peninsula is on their side of the line, they might use that as an excuse for a major land grab west, like happened otl with Brazil.

 

[miguelrj]

Hmmm.... if the Avalon Peninsula is on their side of the line, they might use that as an excuse for a major land grab west, like happened otl with Brazil.

Exactly. A technically irregular status quo later rendered legit by treaty(ies).

 

[Dan1988]

Hmmm.... if the Avalon Peninsula is on their side of the line, they might use that as an excuse for a major land grab west, like happened otl with Brazil.

They could, maybe if they go as far south as the Saguenay fjord or Cape Breton (after all, Labrador could work as a major land holding from which to expand).

 

[Tocomocho]

Tordesillas is moot after the Iberian Union. This is the time Brazil begins to expand west and the Sacramento Colony is established in Uruguay. At this point, Portuguese are Spaniards. People exaggerate the continuity of the treaty through History.

Agree that Newfoundland would be contentious. It was explored by the Portuguese IOTL, and depending of the projection used part or everything can fall on the Portuguese side, since the world is round and all. On the other hand, the CCMM protested England's first sponsored voyage to Newfoundland, claiming that it was "their" territory.

 

[miguelrj]

Tordesillas is moot after the Iberian Union.

Indeed.

People exaggerate the continuity of the treaty through History.

Well, Chile somehow still invokes it in the argument for Antártica Chilena...

 

[Dan1988]

I'm bumping this thread because I'm serious about trying to construct a TL along these lines. On the language front, I'm already requesting books via different libraries on the Portuguese language, so that not only would I be able to have a basic grasp of the grammar (it shouldn't be hard, given my de facto second language is French), but also make myself familiar with any and all dialectal variation I can pluck. With respect to our Brazilian AH.commers (Gonzaga in particular), not every Portuguese variety spoken outside Portugal has to copy Brazil. So it's something I want to pursue. (Granted, for those familiar with my workload, it would be one of many TL projects I have, but I think I can handle them all.) Otherwise, I'd be interested to go ahead with this.

Now, it looks like that to pull it off, I'd need to pull off an early POD where no Treaty of Tordesillas would be needed and Portugal would have to back off from Brazil. That bit can easily be done. What then becomes the next step is figuring out not only how to get Portuguese people over (this shouldn't be hard, given that the Grand Banks attracted people of all sorts, and even with Portuguese colonization I don't see this attraction diminishing), but also two inter-related factors: how Portugal at this stage in the 1400s treats its Jewish people - and as I see it, Jews will play an important role in the story - and also how the Portuguese will have relations with the indigenous people here (or Aboriginals, or First Nations, or Native Americans, or whatever you want to call them). For some of them, there already is some memory of the earlier European presence with the Vikings (which is why the Beothuk, at first contact, tried to avoid Europeans as much as possible), so this is one barrier that would not only have to be overcome but also one that any Portuguese explorer would have to keep in mind.

So, having said that, what are your thoughts?