AH challenge: turn the Netherlands into a medium power

MrHola

Banned
The 19th century was notoriously crap for the Netherlands. Everything that could've gone wrong went wrong. So, is there any way to fix that? Turning the Netherlands into a great power would be too much; too many ifs and hows. But how about a medium power? The same level as Italy, for example? In other words, turn the Netherlands into a fairly respectable medium power with PODs taking place no sooner then 1814. And go.
 
The 19th century was notoriously crap for the Netherlands. Everything that could've gone wrong went wrong. So, is there any way to fix that? Turning the Netherlands into a great power would be too much; too many ifs and hows. But how about a medium power? The same level as Italy, for example? In other words, turn the Netherlands into a fairly respectable medium power with PODs taking place no sooner then 1814. And go.
The only way possible, I would say is to keep wallonia. The Netherlands almost completely lacked the resources for industrial development and its economy was completely ruined by the French domination and occupation of the late 18th early 19th century. Also Flanders, although it would be benificary for the the Netherlands 9and Flanders) would not be enough. The Netherlands needs the Walloon industrial potential. Ok, I guess the neighbouring Ruhr area might also work, but I think it probably would push towards Germany too much, or more exactly, either the Germans would simply conquer it or the people living there would not consider themselves Dutch, so would force a change in the political landscape (either secession or force the Netherlands itself into Germany). The Netherlands can absorb part of Germany, but I don't think it can absorb the Ruhr area in the age of nationalism.
 
They absolutely have to keep Belgium for its raw materials. In addition, get some African colonies and perhaps more of the East Indies.
 
In addition, get some African colonies
No, Most African colonies were money drains. Better get rid of those (like the Dutch gold coast) and focus on Indonesia.
and perhaps more of the East Indies.
Well, maybe a Dutch Malaysia is possible, if we can prevent a British Singapore. The Dutch did hold Malacca after the Napoleonic wars. With a different 19th century it is possible that the rest of Borneo ends up Dutch.
 

MrHola

Banned
A while ago, I wrote something like this. Does this proposed scenario have any potential?

POD: The Prince of Orange dies at Waterloo. He was wounded IOTL.

Things roughly follow OTL, until 1830. An urprising breaks out in Brussels in July/August. It quickly spreads throughout the southern Netherlands (Belgium). King William I, not being hampered by his flip-flopping son (who died at Waterloo) doesn't back down. Maybe the death of his heir hardened him or something. Antwerp, Maastricht and Venlo are bombarded by the Dutch. The Belgian provisional government is drawn up earlier. This means some delegates don't make it to the congress as fast as they did IOTL, such as Louis Joseph Antoine de Potter or Sylvain Van de Weyer, both of whom were out of the country at the time. So, someone other than Charles Rogier is likely elected the provisional prime minister. Let's say they elect Alexandre Gendebien, a francophile. This causes the de Mérode to be made regent of the country instead de Chokier. With the Dutch still besieging the country and the fledgeling Belgian forces unable to throw them off, the provisional government is more desperate then OTL. They call for foreign assistance.

IOTL the Belgians offered the throne to Prince Louis, Duke of Nemours, the son of the Orléanist King of France, Louis Philippe I. However the French turned it down. With the Belgians still fighting the Dutch ITTL, they have even more reason to do so. The National Congress' two other top choices IOTL were Auguste de Beauharnais, the then Duke of Leuchtenberg, and the step-grandson of Napoléon; and Archduke Charles, Duke of Teschen, the last Hapsburg Statthalter of the southern provinces. Beuharnais was a close second to Louis IOTL, so he's likely to get the nod ITTL.

Beuharnais leaps at the offer, despite British protests. Now he lived/ruled already in the Bavarian 'principality' of Eichstätt, so he'd probably arrive in Belgiun sometime in early spring 1831 (BTW, with the fighting on-going between Belgians and Dutch, the National Congress is likely held in a more southern city - say, Charleroi. Actually being in person at the congres, Beuharnais would be able to swing votes his way to getting elected to the throne. Now with their own King, likely elected sometime in April or May (2-1 month ahead of OTL), and their own constitution, the Belgians would begin to push back.

At this point the Dutch begin to panic. There's been no London Conference ITTL, and the Dutch have never truly let up on their attempts to retake the southern provinces, so there's nothing akin to the Ten Day's Campaign ITTL; at this point Dutch forces on the continent are largely spent or held down attempting to take the major northern Belgian cities such as Brussels, Ghent, and Antwerp (the latter of which has likely fallen), or have deserted (IOTL some 2/3rds of troops from the southern provinces deserted - that number is likely even higher ITTL. We're looking at a desertion rate of perhaps 80%, which means effectively one-half of the Dutch army, including their arms and material, is now fighting for the Belgians). The colonial forces are too far away to be of any use at this point, if William has even summoned them yet. So the only option left to the Dutch is foreign assistance.

Even at this point IOTL William I knew he wouldn't be able to retake the southern provinces, and merely wanted to negotiate from a position of strength - that's likely to be the same ITTL, so he's going to call upon aid from someone who isn't going to be able to, or won't, hold it over his head at a later point (or at least not to a degree that he would find unacceptable). So that means the British. Palmerston, being Palmerston, is going to say no. He doesn't want to piss off the French, and he wants to maintain the balance of power on the continent. The idea of the Brits getting martially entangled in some affair across the English Channel is not something he is going to be interested it.

So now the Dutch have no one left to turn to. The Prussians are too busy, and rather too small at this point. Still paying off their war debt from the Napoleonic Wars, involved with the various German states in trying to set up the Zollverein, busy guarding her eastern border and watching over her Polish subjects due to the outbreak of the November Uprising.

So the war carries on for a time longer than IOTL, but ultimately no great intervention comes of it. Hell, the French likely never even get involved; Étienne Gérard expedition IOTL was a direct response to the Ten Day's Campaign. Ultimately the Dutch aren't going to be able to reconquer the Belgians, but the Belgians won't be able to reclaim all of their lost territory. A general cease-fire is likely introduced sometime in late 1831/spring 1832, with the new borders established where the front lines where. The Dutch keep all of Limburg and Antwerp, and some northernl parts of East & West Flanders, the Flemish Brabant, and Liège. The Belgians get their OTL country plus all of Luxembourg. The capital of this new country is...Mons? It doesn't have a coastline, though...

The Great Powers accept this because it keeps the peace and contains the revolution. The French aren't going to attempt to integrate a 'Napoleonic' kingdom into their newly established Orléanist one, Talleyrand be-damned; the British are simply interested in their own affairs and making sure the balance of power isn't over-turned by the 1831 Revolutions; the Russians (and Austrians) can do nothing to stop the outcome; and the other European states were hardly 'great powers' in 1830-1832. King William, disgusted and physically and mentally exhausted, resigns from the Dutch throne in 1833.
 
with the exception of south-africa, that is a keeper, would there be a way for them to keep it during the nap. wars?
also good as a settler colony.

if willem II gets killed at waterloo, that probably also removes the belgian uprising, since it was willem II who started it (he preferred to live in brussels, and was idiotic ambitious, so he kindled the fire of dissatisfaction in southern nobility, since he hoped to become king of the south)
 
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with the exception of south-africa, that is a keeper, would there be a way for them to keep it during the nap. wars?
also good as a settler colony.
During? Yes. At the end no. During the treaty of Amiens the Cape colony was returned to the Batavian republic, but again taken occupied when Napoleon installed his brother as king. Somewhere around that time lies the POD for the Dutch to keep the Cape Colony.

A while ago, I wrote something like this. Does this proposed scenario have any potential?
I kind of find it unlikely. If the French aren't involved the Dutch can quite easily defeat the Belgians, also the Dutch manage to keep Liege and Brussels, but not most of Flanders? Brussels and Liege basicly were the core of the revolt. Besides that, it is not enough for the Dutch to become a middle power. it really needs Wallonia. Just Liege is not enough.
 

Deleted member 1487

Have the United Kingdom of the Netherlands hold together somehow and get Luxembourg while keeping South Africa as a colony, an alliance with the British to avoid a war there and friendly relations with Prussia to avoid invasion, take Indonesia as per OTL, and even get the Belgian Congo. All of that together would give the Dutch a massive resource base and reasonable population base that was very wealth relative to its size. Assuming no WWs as a result and good relations with Germany if it forms, then the Dutch are going to be sitting very pretty come the 20th century. It will easily be as wealthy as a united Italy if not even more so with less population, though perhaps if retaining South Africa they would have a significant settler population that would keep their total white population in the homeland and colonies combined greater than Italy. It wouldn't be a France, Britain, or German level country, but it would be hugely wealthy and powerful beyond what its population would indicate.
 
The only way possible, I would say is to keep wallonia. The Netherlands almost completely lacked the resources for industrial development and its economy was completely ruined by the French domination and occupation of the late 18th early 19th century. Also Flanders, although it would be benificary for the the Netherlands 9and Flanders) would not be enough. The Netherlands needs the Walloon industrial potential. Ok, I guess the neighbouring Ruhr area might also work, but I think it probably would push towards Germany too much, or more exactly, either the Germans would simply conquer it or the people living there would not consider themselves Dutch, so would force a change in the political landscape (either secession or force the Netherlands itself into Germany). The Netherlands can absorb part of Germany, but I don't think it can absorb the Ruhr area in the age of nationalism.
Disagree. Nationalism was rampant, yes, but (predominantly liberal) German nationalism pre-1848 wasn`t anti-Dutch. (It was ostensibly anti-French, and deeply ingrained anti-Eastern Europe, but not so much anti-Dutch.)
The region I live in at the moment - the town of Siegen - looks back on long and intense connections with what are now the Netherlands. There`s the Orange/Nassau connection. And dialects in the Rhine/Ruhr region were close to Dutch at the time. Plus, this region is deeply Calvinistic.
The Netherlands would have to develop some sort of structurally and territorially open and culturally attractive political model, plus investing a little in uniting various smaller German states behind them, and then nobody says that the Rhine-Ruhr-Nassau region must become Prussian in the course of the 19th century.
I can imagine a quite plausible Dutch Flanders-Wallony-Rhine-Ruhr Empire, perhaps also absorbing much of German Frisia if they manage to beat Prussia in the race for unification.
 
Disagree. Nationalism was rampant, yes, but (predominantly liberal) German nationalism pre-1848 wasn`t anti-Dutch. (It was ostensibly anti-French, and deeply ingrained anti-Eastern Europe, but not so much anti-Dutch.)
The region I live in at the moment - the town of Siegen - looks back on long and intense connections with what are now the Netherlands. There`s the Orange/Nassau connection. And dialects in the Rhine/Ruhr region were close to Dutch at the time. Plus, this region is deeply Calvinistic.
The Netherlands would have to develop some sort of structurally and territorially open and culturally attractive political model, plus investing a little in uniting various smaller German states behind them, and then nobody says that the Rhine-Ruhr-Nassau region must become Prussian in the course of the 19th century.
I can imagine a quite plausible Dutch Flanders-Wallony-Rhine-Ruhr Empire, perhaps also absorbing much of German Frisia if they manage to beat Prussia in the race for unification.
It wasn't anti-Dutch at least partly because the Dutch didn't hold much of Germany. While e.g. Luxemburg can be written off by German nationalists, the Ruhr/Rhineland really can't, and would probably get the Dutch in serious trouble come 1848 (or for that matter when the Belgians revolt), much less when Germany finally starts unifying and looking for irredenta.

Think of the trouble the Danes had with Schleswig-Holstein, which they had ruled for a century and had a clear claim to. If the Dutch somehow got the Ruhr (and good luck coming up with a post-Napoleonic POD to allow that), they will be the prime targets of Pan-German wrath.
 
Were the African colonies really net drains? In our timeline they were largely negatives to governments, but huge positives to private companies. That suggests a well managed colony could be a positive to government if they lay their cards right.
 

Deleted member 1487

Were the African colonies really net drains? In our timeline they were largely negatives to governments, but huge positives to private companies. That suggests a well managed colony could be a positive to government if they lay their cards right.
The Belgian Congo was a massive net gain for Belgium. South Africa was also a pretty profitable colony as well, as was Namibia in the end. Part of the problem was development; all the former German colonies ended up being profitable in the long run, its just that it took time to make them so. Some were never going to be profitable like the French Congo and Chad among others, while Italian East Africa/Somalia/Ethiopia was not profitable; Mussolini wanted to make it a settler colony and have it end up a market for Italian goods rather than losing emigrees to the US or South America, but it couldn't have ever been profitable, because it had nothing to export.
 
It wasn't anti-Dutch at least partly because the Dutch didn't hold much of Germany. While e.g. Luxemburg can be written off by German nationalists, the Ruhr/Rhineland really can't, and would probably get the Dutch in serious trouble come 1848 (or for that matter when the Belgians revolt), much less when Germany finally starts unifying and looking for irredenta.

Think of the trouble the Danes had with Schleswig-Holstein, which they had ruled for a century and had a clear claim to. If the Dutch somehow got the Ruhr (and good luck coming up with a post-Napoleonic POD to allow that), they will be the prime targets of Pan-German wrath.

small point, if the dutch feel trouble coming from prussia, what do you think they will do come the austro-prussian war?
when that moment comes, it might be enough to tip the scales towards the Dutch/AH & their german allies

i have a feeling that the pod has to lay somewhere during the reign of Louis-Napoleon, interesting detail, L-N did call call the french occumpation of the netherlands illegal (he took his duties as king of holland very serious, and put it mostly before his duties to france)
 
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It needs to start eating Germany before it gets this far. Best case scenario for the Netherlands is to become the leading German state and to avoid the creation of a separate identity. The Netherlands alone are too small to really be worth much consideration, except when it comes to trade.
 
It needs to start eating Germany before it gets this far. Best case scenario for the Netherlands is to become the leading German state and to avoid the creation of a separate identity. The Netherlands alone are too small to really be worth much consideration, except when it comes to trade.

A seperate identity has already been formed, I'm afraid it's too late for that route. What the Netherlands needs is to retain the Southern Netherlands and some form of France screw or France being to pre-occupied with other matters so they'll leave The Netherlands alone for a considerable time.

So then we have the proper borders, the resources and some colonies... So then now how to deal with the Francophones and inequality between the South and the North.
 
King Willem I of the Netherlands originally proposed at the Congress of Vienna to expand the Netherlands into the Rhineland with the Moselle as a southern border, also he wanted the Nassau lands and the former duchy of Berg to be included in his new kingdom.

Although keeping the kingdom of the United* Netherlands together would be a good start too. Still the ambitious Willem I did have plans to acquire more German lands, OTOH IOTL he already got a decent deal; giving him everything he wanted IOTL IMHO might be almost ASB.

(*= never part of the official name)
 
The 19th century was notoriously crap for the Netherlands. Everything that could've gone wrong went wrong. So, is there any way to fix that? Turning the Netherlands into a great power would be too much; too many ifs and hows. But how about a medium power? The same level as Italy, for example? In other words, turn the Netherlands into a fairly respectable medium power with PODs taking place no sooner then 1814. And go.

What about a Dutch entry into the First World War? They could then have participated at the Verseilles settlement, annexing German territory right along the border. Lands in the Schleswig Holstein area were given to Denmark OTL. In this scenario, further lands could be given to the Netherlands. Combine that with Belgium and Luxemburg never breaking away, and you have just tripled the size of the Netherlands, turning it into a notable power.
 
No, Most African colonies were money drains. Better get rid of those (like the Dutch gold coast) and focus on Indonesia.

Well, maybe a Dutch Malaysia is possible, if we can prevent a British Singapore. The Dutch did hold Malacca after the Napoleonic wars. With a different 19th century it is possible that the rest of Borneo ends up Dutch.

They must keep Belgium and Luxembourg, maybe take a bit of Northern Germany (Frisia, some of the borderlands). Of course, this would create some many internal issues that this may retard the growth of the nation.

Malasia was a big tin producer at this time. This would be a significant benefit, if not necessarily indicative of a great power.

Maybe they are awarded part of Arabia after WWII?

I find it difficult to envision the Netherlands being anything but a wealthy bit part player in Europe like Portugal, Sweden adn Switzerland. The population just isn't there.

Maybe if, much earlier, they'd made more sustained effort to colonize North and Souther America, or South Africa, the "Dutch Empire" might prove more powerful than the home country.
 
Were the African colonies really net drains? In our timeline they were largely negatives to governments, but huge positives to private companies. That suggests a well managed colony could be a positive to government if they lay their cards right.

Very few African colonies made a profit, almost never from the Government.

I struggle to think of any that weren't drains. Maybe Ghana, which had a booming chocolate industry for a few decades. When it declared independence around 1950, it appeared likely for long term prosperity. Unfortunately, a nationalist leader with aspirations for a "United Africa" squandered the wealth and the chocolate pricing bombed.

Ghana went to crap.
 
@ Alt History Buff: a united Low Countries would be what the OP requests a medium power. They're too small to be a proper Great Power, but it could become first amongst the medium powers. For this at a minimum the Low Countries should not fall apart (again) though.
 
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