Previously I had posted about tanks and planes the PRC did not produce but thought of or could have. I decided to consolidate into one thread. Hope you like and all input is welcome.
Additional PRC Heavy Weapons Systems ...
- Thread starter Musketeer513
- Start date
After the Sino-Soviet split in the late 1950s, Mao has his spies smuggle plans for weapons the Soviets would not give the Chinese. One of the plans was for the Myasishchev Mya-4. After many delays in 1972 the first is completed. Mao pushed the completion after the 1969 border clashes. 60 were produced as the Xian H-7, first use in the Sino-Vietnam 1980 border clash.
If you look at the Mya-4 you will notice the engines while 4 are placed like the 2 in the Tu-16.
What was not discovered until later that China had placed another bomber into production, the Xian H-4. The H-4 was a copy of the Tupelov Tu-85. China was supplied with 10 Tu-4s by Stalin. With the plans that China received by espionage and derived from a plane they were familiar with it seemed a no-brainer to place it in production.
The reason for making the H-4 was the Soviet leadership in 1954 would not supply China with the Tu-95. So if spies could get plans for Tu-85, go for it.
Approximate Production Numbers;
H-4 Barge 240
H-5 Beagle 600
H-6 Badger 180
H-7 Bison 60
H-4 Barge 240
H-5 Beagle 600
H-6 Badger 180
H-7 Bison 60
IOTL, after the Korean War, Mao considered reverse engineering Soviet supplied IS-2 and place them into production as the Type 122 Medium Tank, the proposal was cancelled in favor of the Type 59, a Chinese copy of the T-54. ITTL, after the Chinese-Soviet split, Mao orders the plan to go ahead giving the PRC it's own production heavy tank? The "new" Type 60 Heavy Tank enters PRC service in 1964. It faces of against Soviet IS-2 and IS-3 in the 1969 border clashes. With the improvement in relations with the west in the late '70s, a modernize version is placed in production resulting in the Type 81 Heavy Tank with the 122mm gun replaced by a British 120mm L11 gun. Not only does the new tank have updated electronics like the Type 79, the ammunition storage is increase by 25% to 35.
The Soviet exported IS-2 & IS-3's to China (60), Cuba (40) and Egypt (100), so they would probably be exported especially during the Iran-Iraq War. The IS-2 weighed 46 tons, in comparison the Centurion weighed 52 tons, Chieftain 62, M47 Patton 44, M48 Patton 45 and M60 49. So the weight would not be excessive.
When the Chinese adopted the 105mm gun they used the British L7. They never adopted any Western 120mm gun IOTL. ITTL besides adopting the L7 for their medium tanks they adopted the more powerful L11 for their heavy tanks. Their rivalry India when they moved up in gun size adopted either the British 120mm or the Soviet 125mm. They avoided the Western 120mm smooth bore.
I just read less than an hour ago the Germans in '79 refused the Chinese their 120mm gun. The Chinese did try to develop their own but the Soviet 125mm was superior. The Chinese gun was used to arm a tank destroyer.
After the 1st Gulf War, captured Type 81 tanks were sent to Egypt. In a secret collaboration with Israel and the United States the tank was upgraded and given a new name, Thutmose III.
The upgrades and modifications, which resulted in an increase in the weight of the tank t0 50 tons, are:
Fire Control System
SABCA Titan Mk I
A SABCA Titan Mk I laser fire-control system has been installed which includes:
The hull section has been modified to accommodate the new power pack, consisting of:
The upgrades and modifications, which resulted in an increase in the weight of the tank t0 50 tons, are:
Fire Control System
SABCA Titan Mk I
A SABCA Titan Mk I laser fire-control system has been installed which includes:
- A modified Avimo TL10-T sight incorporating the laser range-finder
- An integrated in-eyepiece CRT alphanumeric graphic display
- An original SABCA double digital processor
- An image intensification periscopic night sight
- Automatic attitude and atmospheric sensors and associated control boxes
- A new communications system
The hull section has been modified to accommodate the new power pack, consisting of:
- A TCM AVDS-1790-5A turbocharged diesel developing 908 hp (which has 80 per cent commonality with the engine installed in the M60A3 MBT)
- A Renk RK-304 transmission
- Two new exhaust pipes, one either side of the hull rear, replace the single exhaust outlet in the left side of the hull
- A new fuel tank. As a result of the lengthening of the hull (the Thutmose III is nearly one meter longer than the JS-2 and with an added wheel on each side)
- A new final drives
- A new General Dynamics Land Systems, Model 2880 in-arm hydro-pneumatic suspension units each fitted with:
- An M48-type road wheel
- Idler at the front
- Large drive sprocket at the rear
- Two new track-return rollers and US pattern tracks replacing the original Russian tracks
- The Gun system has had the following modifications:
- The gun and turret stabilization system are provided by HR Textron Incorporated of the United States
- The L11 was retained as fitted in allied Jordanian tanks
- A muzzle reference system is fitted as standard
- An M60 day/ night searchlight is mounted over the 120 mm gun
- A collective type NBC system has been installed
- Has IR vision for the gunner and driver
- An image intensification for the commander
- A laser range-finder with ballistic computer for the gunner
- Active and passive protection has been upgraded by:
- Armor protection has been added as have armored side skirts
- A modern NBC overpressure system
- A new air filtration system
- A fire detection and suppression system
- Mounts 6 electrically operated smoke grenade launchers on each side of the turret
- The hatch layout has been retained
- British Blair Catton tracks
- A new turret basket
The protection isn't as good as the JS-3 and T-54, but that doesn't really matter by the time they would be doing this, but the ergonomics are better for the crew, and the Brit 120mm was an accurate tube, and it's HESH round very useful, more so than the smoothbore HEAT.
But it would be likely they would have done the JS-4 standard as the base, a longer, lower and wider hull and a bit better armor layout
The Soviets did build a few hundred of these, but went with the better on paper T-10
Briefly, the Thutmose III by way of the Type 81 ... Type 60 is a vastly updated JS-2. Brief history. In the '50s Mao considered building the following Soviet tanks, T-34, T-54 and JS-2. The T-54 was built as the Type 59, an updated version the Type 79 came in over 20 years later with western technology. The Egyptians updated the basic T-54/Type 55 design into the Ramses II. If the JS-2 had entered production I followed the same history and have the Type 60, Type 81 and Thutmose III.
Besides the production of submarines of Soviet design the PRC also produced a destroyer based on a Soviet design the Type 50 destroyer almost an exact copy of the Kotlin-class destroyer. The first Type 50 entered service in 1971, a total of 12 were built. In 1975 the first of 8 Type 50A destroyers entered service. The Type 50A was a close copy of the SAM Kotlin-class destroyer. In comparison to current Western or Soviet designs the Type 50/50A would be considered second-rate but compared favorably with the destroyers future rival India possessed.
Why would anyone want the Tu-85 when they have the M-4 and Tu-16?
For the Soviets to sell the M-4, the Sino-Soviet split would have to be delayed a decade. By then I would assume the Yak-28, T-62 tank along with the 115mm gun would be sold as well. The Il-40 would be an interesting what if, since it led to the equally ill-fated Il-102.
As far as mid-century Soviet ships, would they complete and sell the unbuilt Sverdlov cruisers? These could be rebuilt as helicopter cruisers later, ala R97 Jeanne d’Arc.
For the Soviets to sell the M-4, the Sino-Soviet split would have to be delayed a decade. By then I would assume the Yak-28, T-62 tank along with the 115mm gun would be sold as well. The Il-40 would be an interesting what if, since it led to the equally ill-fated Il-102.
As far as mid-century Soviet ships, would they complete and sell the unbuilt Sverdlov cruisers? These could be rebuilt as helicopter cruisers later, ala R97 Jeanne d’Arc.
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IOTL, the PRC received its first Il-28 Beagles in 1952, 10 Tu-4 Bulls in 1953 and in 1958 the first Tu-16 Badger was received and the first PRC built one flew in 1959. ITTL, the changes were after the Sino-Soviet split using information gained by espionage the Tu-85 and M-4 are also built.