8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923

[KaiserKatze]

How inevitable with a 1920 POD then would you say was a Polish-German War sooner or later, with the mess of the Polish Corridor that you noted and all that.

With a 1920 POD I'd say that it is a lot more avoidable. At that point you just need one of the two sides to have a more level head for long enough to convince the other side that it isn't worth war. Either Poland needs to offer Germany the access that they want and a promise for a peaceful Danzig resolution, or Germany needs to renounce some of their claims and maybe offer to help back Poland's claim on Vilnius/Wilna in exchange for Poland helping them get back Memel.

In my opinion, when it comes to claims on Poland, it isn't so much one big issue of claims; rather, 3 separate claims which have to be handled uniquely, those being Posen, Upper Silesia, and West Prussia. Everyone agrees that the West Prussian claim is the most legitimate and the easiest to gain sympathy on. Upper Silesia is harder since it is a huge part of Polish industry, but there was a lot of interference in the election there and Germany could press that fact. Then there is Posen, where Germany's claim is weakest since the region revolted against their control, but which they nevertheless view as an integral part, even if only because of how the infrastructure there makes it into one solid unit connecting Prussia to Silesia.

 

[Whiteshore]

Considering that the Nazis wouldn’t be discrediting it, one interesting implication of this TL is that the swastika would still remain a popular symbol, especially with how the Finnish Air Force even IOTL still use swastikas in some official contexts.

 

[1962strat]

Considering that the Nazis wouldn’t be discrediting it, one interesting implication of this TL is that the swastika would still remain a popular symbol, especially with how the Finnish Air Force even IOTL still use swastikas in some official contexts.

I would say it would just not be frowned upon, since it was never really popular before the Nazis.

 

[Quinkana]

I would say it would just not be frowned upon, since it was never really popular before the Nazis.

Sure it'd never pop up in national flags but I see it popping up as army regiment patches and the such.

 

[Whiteshore]

Sure it'd never pop up in national flags but I see it popping up as army regiment patches and the such.

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about, though if anything like the OTL craze for Eastern mysticism occurs, I could see swastika iconography being a fad ITTL.

 

[ChrisTheCat]

The other thing that would likely be much more socially acceptable without Nazism is eugenics. I mean, even OTL, some countries took until the 70s to get rid of eugenicist policies, and a couple today still have them, even if unofficially. Image how widespread it would be without something like the Holocaust to discredit it?

 

[KaiserKatze]

The other thing that would likely be much more socially acceptable without Nazism is eugenics. I mean, even OTL, some countries took until the 70s to get rid of eugenicist policies, and a couple today still have them, even if unofficially. Image how widespread it would be without something like the Holocaust to discredit it?

Oh, Eugenics will be a big thing in this world. Not just greater research and belief in the idea that preventing diseases is best done before the birth, even birth defects, but also many nations will retain laws sterilising criminals who commit a crime above a certain severity.

 

[connorCD]

I think even while eugenics remain viable in the public consciousness, there will still be a big pushback against it eventually, especially among civil rights activists once the movement kicks off.

 

[KaiserKatze]

I think even while eugenics remain viable in the public consciousness, there will still be a big pushback against it eventually, especially among civil rights activists once the movement kicks off.

I'm not so sure about that. We had that IRL because of how eugenics took on such a racial element in Nazi Germany and America, but without that racial element, it might still be seen as an unrelated medical issue. I'd definitely see prisoner sterilisation coming under fire, especially in cases of later acquittal or crimes which stop being crimes, but eugenics?

 

[connorCD]

I'm not so sure about that. We had that IRL because of how eugenics took on such a racial element in Nazi Germany and America, but without that racial element, it might still be seen as an unrelated medical issue. I'd definitely see prisoner sterilisation coming under fire, especially in cases of later acquittal or crimes which stop being crimes, but eugenics?

No Nazis definitely negates the racial element, sure, but it will still exist in America and some other countries, and as someone who thinks the civil rights movement will happen in one form or another (although probably delayed without WW2), I think it'll still come under fire by activist groups who see it as another attack on minority rights.

 

[Teiresias]

We had that IRL because of how eugenics took on such a racial element in Nazi Germany and America, but without that racial element, it might still be seen as an unrelated medical issue.

Even without the Nazis there are still quite a few places where eugenics had a racial component. Look at sterilization of native women in the US and Canada.

Sterilization of Native American women - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Compulsory sterilization in Canada - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Relf sisters - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Quinkana]

I'm not so sure about that. We had that IRL because of how eugenics took on such a racial element in Nazi Germany and America, but without that racial element, it might still be seen as an unrelated medical issue. I'd definitely see prisoner sterilisation coming under fire, especially in cases of later acquittal or crimes which stop being crimes, but eugenics?

I just think the eugenics (forced sterilisation of native women and criminals) would die out, it'd just be a lot more slow than otl due to no Nazis. I still think we'd see scientists debunking it and ppl thinking that its a 'thing of the past' in the 70s.

 

[embo]

I just think the eugenics (forced sterilisation of native women and criminals) would die out, it'd just be a lot more slow than otl due to no Nazis. I still think we'd see scientists debunking it and ppl thinking that its a 'thing of the past' in the 70s.

Without the Nazis, that timeline seems somewhat fast, in the end it probably depends a lot on the actual development of politics without the Nazis, so it's hard to say.

Second, we know that the Soviets will be somewhat of the villains of the timeline, and considering their views on "negative eugenics", it seems likely that this will impact the overall view of it.

 

[Quinkana]

Without the Nazis, that timeline seems somewhat fast, in the end it probably depends a lot on the actual development of politics without the Nazis, so it's hard to say.

Second, we know that the Soviets will be somewhat of the villains of the timeline, and considering their views on "negative eugenics", it seems likely that this will impact the overall view of it.

I could see Socialist eugenics as seen as evil by the people, but I don't think it will only changed little bc eugenics scientists could point out that western eugenics isn't the same as Socialist eugenics. I do think it could be seen as more and more as a 'Socialist' thing if the German, British and American governments push it.

I do think it'd prob be seen as bad by the end of the 20th and the early 21st century, but I'd think the thought of it being antiquated would be seen earlier I'd think.

 

[Whiteshore]

Socialist eugenics

Especially with Lysenkoism in mind and all that.

 

[JamesHunter]

No Nazis definitely negates the racial element, sure, but it will still exist in America and some other countries, and as someone who thinks the civil rights movement will happen in one form or another (although probably delayed without WW2), I think it'll still come under fire by activist groups who see it as another attack on minority rights.

It may even come earlier, I mean without a full scale WW2 (which seems unlikely with Germany more "normal") the hangover from the depression will last deep into the 1940's. That could lead to things like the KKK trying to scapegoat African American's and heavy pushback by the already existing rights groups leading into a general push a bit before it happened OTL.

At that point eugenics probably becomes a target with all the instances of sterilising black men for "reasons."

 

[Karl the Writer]

Even without the Nazis there are still quite a few places where eugenics had a racial component. Look at sterilization of native women in the US and Canada.

Sterilization of Native American women - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Compulsory sterilization in Canada - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Relf sisters - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Let's not forget Denmark, who engaged in one of the most effective (by statistics) sterilization campaigns in history against Inuit people living in Greenland. They managed to halve the birthrate among Inuit women living in Greenland in a decade.

Inuit Greenlanders demand answers over Danish birth control scandal

Denmark and Greenland agree to investigate traumatising birth control procedures on Inuit Greenlanders.

www.bbc.com

 

[Karl the Writer]

It may even come earlier, I mean without a full scale WW2 (which seems unlikely with Germany more "normal") the hangover from the depression will last deep into the 1940's. That could lead to things like the KKK trying to scapegoat African American's and heavy pushback by the already existing rights groups leading into a general push a bit before it happened OTL.

At that point eugenics probably becomes a target with all the instances of sterilising black men for "reasons."

The KKK was a dying organization by the 1940s, plagued by scandals and bankruptcy after the high water mark of the 1920s. Blaming African Americans for the continued economic malaise seems rather out of character for the KKK, considering how African Americans weren't associated with the financial sector that caused the Great Depression, at the very least in the eye of the public. Given how this is the Second Klan, which was very anti semitic in addition to xenophobic and racist, it wouldn't be out of character for them to (of course) blame the Jews.

 

[KaiserKatze]

I do feel that eugenics as defined by "sterilising or removing unwanted gene carriers from the population" will die out except in the most extreme states, but all eugenics as a concept has to do is survive until it makes the leap into gene therapy and laboratory selection and then it has a much higher chance of survival. IRL this didn't happen because the movement was so vilified that even these less harmful methods because tarnished by association, even in nations like China with somewhat looser restrictions, but if conventional eugenics lasts until, at the latest, the 70's or 80's's in Western society, especially a society where WW2 didn't damage a lot of peaceful scientific endeavours, I could very much see a trend catching on of utilising a geneticist much the way that we do obstetricians, especially in nations where the view on communal health is a bit stricter. I could even see it being bundled up with vaccinations as the general "preventative measures" one can take.

Is it obvious that I initially studied genetics and planned to make it my career? 😛

 

[GrimmJow007]

If Europe practiced eugenics on a large scale, there would be no Royalty.