The greatest effect of this TL on future social media will be that those people who are unsufferably annoying about their irish heritage will be even more common.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Completely coincidental but it actually is! I was actually thinking about the ending of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (without all the violence).
If widows are a much more significant portion of the population, might this translate into a culture where women in general have more autonomy, simply by necessity?
Additional question: how many of those women will travel North in search of more opportunities?
Come to think of it, racial equality would be helped along greatly if in addition to the South getting paraguay'd, white female southerners migrated en-masse to the north in search of work and hopefully a husband. Numbers would be more equal that way.
Edit: now I'm imagining a planters daughter having to work as a nanny or housekeeper to a well-off New York family in Gramercy Park, or maybe a New England family in Newport. I get a little kick out of that, and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to feel bad about that.
Edit edit: actually come to think of it, planters daughters would be highly sought-after as nannies - with the expectation that a woman of her upbringing could be trusted to teach the girls how a lady ought to behave.
Edit edit edit: now I'm imagining bits of the South creeping into the dialect of wealthy northerners because of this phenomenon, as back then above a certain class the nanny (or governess or au pair) basically raised the children.
Additional question: how many of those women will travel North in search of more opportunities?
Come to think of it, racial equality would be helped along greatly if in addition to the South getting paraguay'd, white female southerners migrated en-masse to the north in search of work and hopefully a husband. Numbers would be more equal that way.
Edit: now I'm imagining a planters daughter having to work as a nanny or housekeeper to a well-off New York family in Gramercy Park, or maybe a New England family in Newport. I get a little kick out of that, and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to feel bad about that.
Edit edit: actually come to think of it, planters daughters would be highly sought-after as nannies - with the expectation that a woman of her upbringing could be trusted to teach the girls how a lady ought to behave.
Edit edit edit: now I'm imagining bits of the South creeping into the dialect of wealthy northerners because of this phenomenon, as back then above a certain class the nanny (or governess or au pair) basically raised the children.
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Yeah sure. Maybe I'll include that in a prose mini update, because I feel it would be tacked on in a regular update.
Christian socialism is something that really interests me. In fact, an ideology like that is present in my other TL, though it's more like Catholic socialism there. In any case, I agree that "Godless socialism" wouldn't be well received, and Christian socialism would probably pair well with the already very religious abolitionist movement.
I am always looking for radical military commanders, because on their shoulders is the enforcement of confiscation and the protection of the new regimes. So we need people resolved to do justice to the Freedmen. So I can't thank you enough for this list. Willich interests me mainly as a way to obtain such a military commander. Also, because it'd be interesting to see if he creates communal farms or similar. I don't know if he has a political career beyond Reconstruction. Maybe as a carpetbagger? I did not know he was a Liberal Republican, and it's disappointing to hear so.
I've already said it, but it's difficult if not impossible to avoid the corruption of the Gilded Age completely. Some steps towards reform that might deflate the Liberal movement can be taken.
I'll try to fix it but sometimes I wonder what's the point since links end up broken all the time.
I have thought about this as well. I considered that something similar to Latin American "indigenismo" might arise, examining the relations between the dominant white classes and the oppresed minorities from the point of view of the minorities themselves. But I like your proposal much better. I think examinations of greed and prejudice would be particularly common.
It's really a shame one of the most significant films in history is Lost Cause propaganda that portraits the Klan as heroes.
A film about the Revolution is a great idea!
Better Southern Republican leaders is a great challenge, indeed. Some were relatively good, like Brownlow or Ames, others are difficult to qualify, like Holden and Moses. There are bad ones, like Warmoth and Bullock, and then we have people like Alcorn. Altogether, no Southern governor can be called a great statesman, and being merely competent is not enough when you have to face economic collapse and terrorism.
Yes. I think we need and want recanting Confederates, and Mahone is a good example since he embraced Reconstruction. The challenge lies in distinguishing your Longstreets from your Hamptons, that is, differentiate men who truly embrace the new regimes and those who pretend to embrace it but remain White Supremacists at heart.
I really appreciate that you took the time to say this! Thank you!
Curiously enough, and according to Eric Foner, the number of biracial couples in the Reconstruction South was higher than expected. Not that they were common, but this "breach of traditional mores that appears more frequently in records of the time than might be imagined". Unfortunately, they were targeted by the Klan.
Why, tho?
Southern Governments did take measures that tended towards female liberation. Not always out of feminists concerns, mind you (for example, letting women own property was done to protect yeomen from seizure for debt), but still. So, yeah, I think one of the effects will be more autonomy for Southern women, both black and white.
And yeah, I relish in the image of a Southern aristocrat being forced to work as a nanny, a job she probably has always believed is for Black women only. On the topic of accents, I know Black women had a great effect on Southern accents and food since they basically raised many children. I wonder if that would change?
Hmmm... Like "Three Musketeers"? Oh, you meant an American black....
probably not as a great effect but probably still very prominent
I forget what thread, but somewhere I postulated the idea of John F Kennedy as an actor in this Blockbuster where he plays Paul Revere in the late 40s. Perhaps Paul Revere's Ride would be even better as the replacement for Birth of a Nation. The action sequences would be very good. It would be a subject people would have learned about in school so moviegoers would be able to read - since movies aren't talkies yet – and know what to expect yet have some good drama included. You could have whole bunches of people marching as red coats being shot at on the way back from Bunker Hill and then later if you didn't want to limit it to the opening days of the revolution as Patriots at Yorktown or something.
As for southern women, how often did women go out alone to the Old West? I'm trying to remember if it happened a lot even in westerns on TV, I think I remember one or two Lone Ranger episodes, though most westerns were a little before my time.
As for southern women, how often did women go out alone to the Old West? I'm trying to remember if it happened a lot even in westerns on TV, I think I remember one or two Lone Ranger episodes, though most westerns were a little before my time.
Worffan101
Gone Fishin'
What I really love about this timeline is how every single move the rebellion makes only makes their situation worse and encourages pro-civil-rights sentiment in the loyal states. It's the little things like "very slightly different timing" and "slightly different leadup" turns into a massively different result, which makes this timeline IMO a pinnacle of the AH genre.
Yeah, I second this. I do see that while there are certain significant PODs, there are also multiple small events piling up over time that made the difference.
I mean I'm kind of cheering for them, I almost feel something like this is necessary.
But I'm worried about the horrible precedent of justified political violence for moral aims.
Especially this stuff.
Only possible in a time of radical war.
Kind of wondering, what's the apprenticeship system. I know that today in the USA apprenticeships are maybe viewed as an archaic but beneficial way to learn a trade.
Oh Crud.
Really looking forward to reading this.
I absolutely enjoyed it and am looking forward to the next update.
This isn't really true. Remember the north is not just about abolition for abolitions sake but for the sake of free men and free labor.
What does Europe think of all of this? Slaves rising up and demanding their freedom, something that might elicit comparisons to Spartacus or Judah Maccabee, I imagine that from a safe distance away it would seem terribly exciting - almost certainly rather romanticized in The Times and Le Figaro. Is the Manchester Guardian publishing yet?
If any of these black soldiers become famous as individuals then they could do gangbusters touring Europe, being thighly sought-after guests in all the salons in France
Edit: some newspapers perhaps describing it as the greatest call to arms for Christian men since Pope Urban II declared the First Crusade, eliciting European volunteers.
If any of these black soldiers become famous as individuals then they could do gangbusters touring Europe, being thighly sought-after guests in all the salons in France
Edit: some newspapers perhaps describing it as the greatest call to arms for Christian men since Pope Urban II declared the First Crusade, eliciting European volunteers.
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US Veterans hanging out in France might be a bit problematic in this timeline...at least during the mid to late 1860s considering the whole Mexico situation. And speaking off...
So I've been thinking, and bare me out here. Since Red_Galiray wants to try something with Mexico this one idea might work. If the war ends early enough in TTL, US support of Benito Juarez might be more pronounced, if he plays his cards right maybe even a scheme that results in the capture of a significant number of French officials forcing France to commit to a campaign to rescue them (risky if TTL's government is willing to put it's money where its Monroe Doctrine is) or actually formally negotiate a treaty with the Republicans to distance itself from Maximilian and recognize Juarez and such.
The harder part will be to keeping Maximilian. This Civil War is just too contained for the Franco-Mexican war to be affected by any difference ITTL compared to the OTL. However, Confederates did originally attempt to set up colonies in Mexico under Maximilian. Since Maximilian got abandoned by the retreating French they saw the writing on the wall and headed out to Brazil instead. If there is an early enough exodus of Confederates to Mexico, perhaps some butterflies could work their magic and pull out a rabbit from a magic hat allowing Maximilian to win out at the end. Admittingly, I am not really sure how to work that out. But it's a starting point and if anyone could make it work I guess Red_Galiray could. If Maximilian does show up, and is accompanied by Confederate colonists in mass, it could provoke the more radical US Congress to demand action in Mexico which would pose an even more serious problem for a successful Mexican Empire. Even without that, Maximilian is very widely hated in Mexico and is largely responsible for discrediting the conservatives once and for all. Getting the Mexican people to say "Oh well" is quite the challenge....unless....Spain offers the Moctezumas to France as the Mexican Royal Family. I'm sure the Spanish wouldn't mind and you'd get a Mexican Empire led by a Moctezuma which could rope in the indigenous people and steal Juarez's thunder. It won't be easy and it might need to rely on some unlikely events to make it work but it could be quite interesting. Maybe that's how you get Juarez to make peace, marry one of his kids off to Moctezuma and give him the Premiership making the Prime Minister more of an equal to the Emperor...erm...I mean the Tlatoani.
As for a better Juarez republican experience that relies on less unlikely scenarios/outcomes...in the OTL Mexico City fell on June 3 1863 and if I am correct that's roughly (give or take) where we are at with the timeline right now. Guadalajara will fall seven months later followed by Zacatecas effectively making Juarez's position look tenuous. April 10th 1864 is when Maximilian accepted the crown and he arrived on May. If the US starts sending weapons, guns, and even "volunteers" Juarez could turn things around in TTL before Maximilian arrives. Even defending Guadalajara in a Puebla 1862 type victory might disuade Maximilian from accepting the crown or have him change his mind. No Maximilian, means no Emperor which would force the French to look for another king or to make peace with Juarez and cut its loses. A peace by mid to late 1864 could help Mexico out a little bit, at least cause some butterflies. For example, since Maximilian wouldn't end up taking the throne, the Juarez Doctrine gets butterflied away. Since no European nation would have an emperor to recognize, Mexico wouldn't hit a hard restart with Europe, it could renegotiate treaties and debts with Europe without the decades long delay and diplomatic isolation of the OTL which did make recovery more difficult and tie Mexico closer to the US in the OTL. This could mean a number of different things.
But whatever Red_Galiray does, I believe it'll prove interesting either way, even if he leaves Mexico at to continue as in the OTL at least for the 1860s.
It's an interesting scenario you present, but it's important to remember that the French intervention in the 1860s was just as much of a foreign intervention as it was a civil war. To say Maximillian had no support would be to go to far in one direction. The French got the legitimacy to plop Max on the throne of Mexico by the power of a superior junta which was led by the losers of OTL's Reform War and come 1863-64 there were still enough Mexicans who felt that the Empire would win in the end that the forces of the Mexican Empire arguably outnumbered those of the Republican Juaristas. Even then, many of Juarez's supporters were other warlords whose loyalty to Juarez was shaky at best, and more than a few did lay down arms when Max arrived in Mexico City simply to be on the winning side. I would also note that Napoleon III never acknowledged the legitimacy of Juarez's government, and only would have done so had Juarez offered to pay all the claims made by France at the Convention of London. Considering most of those claims were ludicrous, there's little chance of that happening!
That said, if the Republic does appear to be in a better position, that would delay the vote that the Junta in Mexico City put out to "poll" the people of Mexico on whether they accepted the empire. This would delay Maximillian's arrival and the declaration of the Second Mexican Empire. If you can delay Max's arrival and leave Mexico ostensibly run by the Junta of French supporting ex-nobles, conservative warlords/landownders and the clergy, it would go a long way to weakening the legitimacy of the Junta and giving Juarez needed breathing space until he can get the weapons and money which tipped the scales in his favor in 1865 OTL.
What do you mean by Mexico being diplomatically isolated from Europe? While France would obviously be miffed, I can’t really see why Britain would care about the deposition of a French client king. Why did that result in a “hard restart”?
And sorry if I sound a bit aggressive, I didn’t really know how to word it otherwise.
There are other issues with using confederates as well, namely that the ones trying to colonize are protestant slavers. The only way max could get them on board is to reintroduce slavery, which goes against his progressive/enlightened leanings and would make him absolutely reviled by most Mexicans who don't want slavery brought back.
This apparently happened in our TL, to an extent. LDS missionaries had some significant success in the former CSA in the greater Mississippi region, specifically among war widows attracted to an out from the "inevitable" insecurity of their position.
Never underestimate the implausibility of OTL.
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It's not a matter of why they would, it's a matter of why they did. Because of European recognition of Maximilian, Juarez declared everything to be null and void. Any debts, treaties, and certifications of diplomatic missions. Considering that the UK put a lot of faith into Maximilian and EU investments were made on that bases, that meant a loss of confidence, a straw that broke the camel's back. The common wisdom was that Mexico is too unstable and too deep into the US orbit to matter anymore. Spain did quickly reestablish relations with Mexico but no one else did in the 1860s, Italy and Germany did when they became a thing and then a French Republic after that. The UK held out until the 1880s if I remember correctly and only reached out because Porfirio Diaz was begging and had the support of British merchants.
You're right in that he had support and Juarez's followers weren't following him simply because of who he was. A lot of the Caudillos/oligarchs who went with Juarez did so ought of self preservation through federalism. Keep in mind that Iturbide was pretty popular and that didn't do him any good.
Having the Junta stay in charge would also breed some interesting potential butterflies. Without a forging ruler being imposed, could conservatism have survived a bit longer?