Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[Thomas1195]

I do wonder how the ruthlessness and carnage of the Civil War is perceived in Europe right now

Some English would try to paint Lincoln as Oliver Cromwell perhaps. Others would compare him to Robespierre.

 

[Tjakari]

Oh me oh my, I do declare that Old New York may be needing a new coat of pavement.

I really loved this one.
The greek fire bit threw me off, but I just read that as some kind of early napalm and kept it pushing.

Elements of class warfare were evident, as the business and property of anti-labor employers was destroyed, along with machinery that had automated menial jobs, leaving many of the rioters unemployed. Protestant churches were burned, while well-dressed men were accosted by rioters that bitterly cried “Down with the rich!”, “Will you be my substitute?”, and “Can your daddy buy me out of the army?” Alongside this chaotic terror, a more insidious and organized plot was underway as at least a dozen Confederate agents were setting off fires and handing out arms and ammunition. The fires ran wild as many of the volunteer firefighters were part of the mob, sometimes lighting buildings in fire themselves. The few that remained were unable to do much.

This only increased the tensions, as Unionists within the city identified the rioters with the rebels.

I have to ask this anytime I see something in a TL that seems reminiscent of...other things, but did you have this uprising in New York planned from the jump or was this something you came up with after some recent inspiration?

The government had lost all control, and soon enough extrajudicial executions and atrocities that resembled the worst of Missouri took place in the middle of Manhattan.

The less distance the Northern public have from the war, the better reconstruction goes. It's a shame what they suffer, but to suffer at all does a great good, I'd say.

Black Republican puppies

Please tell me that doesn't mean children.

Radical influence was also strengthened because many Congressmen were newcomers, while most radical leaders such as Stevens, Sumner, Wade, Lovejoy and Julian retained their seats. This longevity, together with the unity of purpose and feeling the Radicals shared, augured “the most radical legislature that has ever assembled in the United States”.

Thomas Paine would be proud, so very proud. Common Sense is finally the law of the land, I suppose.

Stevens’ arguments that “constitutions that contradicted the laws of war should be ignored” and that the rebels could not be protected by the constitution they had defied were too radical for most Republicans.

I honestly would like to see an American politics where the constitution is considered a kind of dead letter in the face of Congressional authority. It'd be more interesting, if nothing else.
It's not as if the good parts of it haven't been subverted or ignored time and time again. There may as well be a "who cares what it has to say" precedent.

“Thad Stevens grinning like never before,

When a revolutionary is optimistic for the future, wicked men learn fear.

the whole situation where Lincoln is the only thing stopping the Radical Republicans from totally burning down and restructuring the entire South is really entertaining.

It'd be interesting (ironic) to see if Lincoln manages to piss off the congress enough in his second term that they flirt with impeaching him over a bill he won't sign.

Likewise, I really love how powerful the Congress is shaping out to be ITTL, the idea of the President acting as a check on an overambitious legislature is really novel to me, and I'm enjoying every bit of it. I hope the tradition keeps up.

I do wonder how the ruthlessness and carnage of the Civil War is perceived in Europe right now.

Can't be good. Though hopefully, it's inspiring to some.

 

[Whiteshore]

I do wonder how the ruthlessness and carnage of the Civil War is perceived in Europe right now.

And now my mind is wandering and wondering what all the colonial powers of Europe, who although not right now occupying much of Africa itself still view those with darker skin as inferior, are thinking about the radicalism developing across the pond.

Adding on to this, the foreign policy of TTL's United States is going to be fairly interesting.

 

[Tjakari]

Adding on to this, the foreign policy of TTL's United States is going to be fairly interesting.

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I could imagine the Belgian Congo becoming a hotspot, depending on how the Radical tradition takes shape going forward.

 

[Enzo]

I'm surprised that you can speak good English. Argentina as with the southernmost half of Latin America such as Uruguay, Chile and southern Brazil are the whitest areas of the region. The same goes for Cuba and to an extent Puerto Rico and parts of Mexico.

Thank for the compliment. I had English in school for at least 7 years. But I started to really learn on my own when we stoped having English as subject in school.

 

[Tjakari]

Thank for the compliment. I had English in school for at least 7 years. But I started to really learn on own when we stoped having English as subject in school.

Mejor que mi español, eso es seguro. ( was going to say to say "esse por cierto" but I'm pretty sure that's wrong.)

 

[Enzo]

Mejor que mi español, eso es seguro. ( was going to say to say "esse por cierto" but I'm pretty sure that's wrong.)

I just realized that I didnt punt "my" on "my own" lol.
Yeah, it would be "eso es por cierto".

 

[Corocora]

I'm surprised that you can speak good English. Argentina as with the southernmost half of Latin America such as Uruguay, Chile and southern Brazil are the whitest areas of the region. The same goes for Cuba and to an extent Puerto Rico and parts of Mexico.

What do you mean, you're surprised at seeing Latinos who can speak English? There are dozens of us!

Mejor que mi español, eso es seguro. ( was going to say to say "esse por cierto" but I'm pretty sure that's wrong.)

Pretty good Spanish bro. (Yeah, it's wrong.)

As always, this TL is a treat; as has been said more eloquently above, the development of post-Constitutional interpretation theory and changes in the balance of powers could make for a very interesting new vision of American Federalism. Keep it up Red!

 

[SirKaid]

“the purpose or overthrowing or resisting the government of the United States”

That bill is going to see so much misuse against labour advocates post-war. It doesn't take much of a stretch to get "resisting the government" out of "striking workers refuse to go back to work after big businesses cry crocodile tears about their poor bottom lines and the Governor sends in the National Guard".

With any luck the courts will still be stacked with radicals when the first such case reaches them so it can get slapped down hard, but jeez that's an outrageously bad bill.

It's not unbelievable, mind, just a case of good intentions applied incautiously and without an eye to bad actors abusing it later.

 

[Crust3038]

This was one of the three bureaus created by the bill, the other two being the Bureaus of Freedmen and Refugees, and of Justice and Labor.

Why do I have the feeling that creating this one thing is going to backfire somewhat on the Radical Republican Business Barons and Tycoons down the line? Say, 20-30 years later on.

That bill is going to see so much misuse against labour advocates post-war. It doesn't take much of a stretch to get "resisting the government" out of "striking workers refuse to go back to work after big businesses cry crocodile tears about their poor bottom lines and the Governor sends in the National Guard".

With any luck the courts will still be stacked with radicals when the first such case reaches them so it can get slapped down hard, but jeez that's an outrageously bad bill.

It's not unbelievable, mind, just a case of good intentions applied incautiously and without an eye to bad actors abusing it later.

This is going to cause a radicalization spiral of the US Left. Which would end badly for the US establishment. In OTL the US got helluva lucky that Theodore and his equal/Square Deal for big business and the workers basically neutered the revolutionary left in its crib.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Great update! First, thank you for saving the orphans in that attack. Second I don't know what black demographics really like in our timeline, but I have read that once economic situation improves there is less need to have a lot of children to support them, so the number of children per family goes down. So it is possible there will be a decline in the number of black people, but not a huge decline.
I doubt they would consider impeaching Lincoln, simply because he is much better politically. The answer is much more likely to be simply nerfing the powers of the president.

I forget if my baseball update had them in the late spring or summer but if it was spring, till things die down is probably better to say it was in the summer. Probably a July or August meeting is better.

Edit: The last comment came in while I was oh, well speaking into my tablet not typing. Anyway, it is quite possible for the US to provide a square deal for business and workers in this timeline, it will just have to start earlier. We don't have the horrible number of monopolies yet, so if the Gilded Age can be squashed some, then things can be better.

 

[minifidel]

Before the freedmen population stabilizes at a lower birthrate, it'll probably still be a generation of big families, but with two big new changes that will lead to an increase in population in the early years: better economic and environmental conditions overall and the end of family separation. Even accounting for a more brutal war, any improvement in Reconstruction is going to result in a larger black population; and even accounting for post-war violence, it'll also likely be less widespread than OTL, again meaning a larger population.

 

[generalurist]

And now my mind is wandering and wondering what all the colonial powers of Europe, who although not right now occupying much of Africa itself still view those with darker skin as inferior, are thinking about the radicalism developing across the pond.

Colonialism might be slightly less brutal, but if anything the events in the union will further embolden the "white man's burden" ideology. At least we might get a slighly better ratio of true believers to those using it as an excuse to plunder.

That bill is going to see so much misuse against labour advocates post-war. It doesn't take much of a stretch to get "resisting the government" out of "striking workers refuse to go back to work after big businesses cry crocodile tears about their poor bottom lines and the Governor sends in the National Guard".

With any luck the courts will still be stacked with radicals when the first such case reaches them so it can get slapped down hard, but jeez that's an outrageously bad bill.

It's not unbelievable, mind, just a case of good intentions applied incautiously and without an eye to bad actors abusing it later.

This is going to cause a radicalization spiral of the US Left. Which would end badly for the US establishment. In OTL the US got helluva lucky that Theodore and his equal/Square Deal for big business and the workers basically neutered the revolutionary left in its crib.

Oh dear, sounds like TTL's Gilded Age could become a nasty mess.

A big concern is that even if racial animosity is greatly reduced, blacks and whites could find themselves equally under the heal of the capitalist. Quite likely the bourgeois will try to stealthily hold things back after the initial reconstruction, given it's favorable for them if poor blacks and whites are trying to blame each other for their misery instead of teaming up to take their due. Let's hope the radicalism in the senate persists long enough to at least somewhat curtail this.

By the way, given how things have been heating up what sort of note if any has Karl Marx taken about this war? IIRC there was discussion ways back about Marx possibly coming over to fight for the 'anti-planter revolution'.

 

[Worffan101]

If this timeline ends with a "Marxist-Lincolnist" pan-racial socialist revolution (by ballot or by bullet) against a pseudoliberal white proto-plutocracy that pays lip service to black rights while spending most of their time looting the country for all it's worth, I think I will die of glee.

 

[TheTexasRanger]

If this timeline ends with a "Marxist-Lincolnist" pan-racial socialist revolution (by ballot or by bullet) against a pseudoliberal white proto-plutocracy that pays lip service to black rights while spending most of their time looting the country for all it's worth, I think I will die of glee.

There was an old timeline I read where there’s and ideology called Lincolnist-Owenist that’s basically Dem-Socs who play within the political system while there’s Marxist-Lincolnist are the radical revolutionaries.

 

[Ficboy]

If this timeline ends with a "Marxist-Lincolnist" pan-racial socialist revolution (by ballot or by bullet) against a pseudoliberal white proto-plutocracy that pays lip service to black rights while spending most of their time looting the country for all it's worth, I think I will die of glee.

Very unlikely, given the racial attitudes of most Northerners and Southerners. There are going to be at least some small positive changes like a Republican Party after Reconstruction that has a substantial presence in the Democratic Party dominated Solid South.

 

[TheDetailer]

Very unlikely, given the racial attitudes of most Northerners and Southerners. There are going to be at least some small positive changes like a Republican Party after Reconstruction that has a substantial presence in the Democratic Party dominated Solid South.

Yeah, it seems quite left-wanky, especially with the 'bullet' part.

 

[Worffan101]

There was an old timeline I read where there’s and ideology called Lincolnist-Owenist that’s basically Dem-Socs who play within the political system while there’s Marxist-Lincolnist are the radical revolutionaries.

that sounds cool! Do you remember what it was called?

Very unlikely, given the racial attitudes of most Northerners and Southerners. There are going to be at least some small positive changes like a Republican Party after Reconstruction that has a substantial presence in the Democratic Party dominated Solid South.

Yeah, I'm just noting the humorous train of thought I went down.

 

[Red_Galiray]

Please like the post! Since I put a lot of work into this update I'd be very grateful if you could like it to show whether it was well received.

FORTY ACRES AND A MULE!

This is going to be a good ride. Keep up the amazing work!

Thank you! Also, a mule and a rifle.

This is basically The Battle Cry of Freedom by James M. McPherson but in an alternate history setting.

What do you mean exactly? Because, yes, I do rely heavily on McPherson's book. But everytime I've taken a direct quote from him I've put it between quotations marks.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees I've been looking forward to this update and seeing the Radicals actually have a chance to enact their vision

I'm glad you enjoyed this! And it's just starting.

Well when Sherman starts marching through the South it looks like Carthage 2.0 is a guarantee

I need to brush up on my Roman history, but yes, this time the Southern will must be forever broken.

Rep. Thaddeus Stevens smiling??? Yeah, the south is screwed for sure if the Thad himself is grinning, seriously Red, great chapter through and through. Loved the civic 'unrest' and just how desperate the Confederacy truly is, even with Johnny Breck at the helm instead of Jeff Davis. Can't wait for more to come.

Thanks! And Breckenridge is better at administration than Davis. The Confederacy probably would already have been conquered if Jeffy was in charge.

It's the 1860s, pikes went out of fashion in warfare over a century ago, before the revolutionary war. Did every immigrant bring their heirlooms over or something and bring them out for the riots?

OOOOFFF. I had hoped that the radicalism would mean the NYC Draft riots wouldn't be as bad as OTL, but it seems it had much the opposite effect. Still, it looks like with this bloodshed the last anti-revolution forces in the north have been crushed, and have ensured a congress radical enough to solve the problem.

[ACCELERATIONISM INTENSIFIES]

Also, VERY NICE that the Union seems to be realizing that the key to uplifting the blacks is to socially and economically empower them, not just give them voting rights. Looks like 40 acres and a mule happened earlier, and will not so easily be revoked post-war.


Wouldn't the recipie for Greek Fire still be largely unknown in the mid 19th century? Or is the naming of the incendiary as 'greek fire' retroactive from the modern day?

I'd like to see this ^_^

That's gotta hurt! As heartless as this is, is it possible that these demonstrations will make the Union army more eager to adopt the Gatling Gun than OTL?

Also who's Henry Reymond and what does he have to do with Richard Gatling?

Awesome. ⊂(▀¯▀⊂)

Serves 'im right. Wonder if he fainted because of the emancipation proclamation.

Somehow, given the plantation owners won't get to keep their slaves I doubt they'd accept this deal anyway. Well, there's always the risk they'd create sharecropping systems, so it's something to be avoided anyway.

Should be "would NOT migrate" I think?

So, my... fascination, so to speak, with pikes comes from close to home. Literally. The bloody caudillo Jose Thomas Boves, during Venezuela's war for independence, used pikes and lances to behead people opposed to the crown. I based a lot of the atrocities depicted here in Bolivar and Boves' exploits, thus explaining why I tend to include things like pikes and heads on stakes. Besides, it's not completely anachronistic. Governor Brown offered pikes to arms Confederate soldiers, and, besides, I use the word loosely to mean any improvised lance.

I kind of regret including that reference to Greek Fire now. I included it after I read Mark E. Neely's "The Civil War and the Limits of Destruction", which talks a little about Greek Fire. It, indeed, is not the real Greek fire the Byzantines had used, but since the history of the Roman Empire occupied such a central part in the imagination of Victorians, any explosive or incendiary substance received the name of Greek fire, especially if it was especially destructive and/or feared. That's why the Punch cartoon that depicts Lincoln and the Tsar has a large explosion labelled "Greek fire" in the background. In this case, the British labeled an experimental torpedo that the Union used against Charleston as Greek fire, and added that to the list of atrocities even though, Neely claims, no person actually died from them.

Henry J. Raymond was the co-founder of the New York Times. And, no, it's correct as "would migrate", since the complete sentence is "Northerners who feared that Blacks would migrate to the North".

Another great update @Red_Galiray, the whole situation where Lincoln is the only thing stopping the Radical Republicans from totally burning down and restructuring the entire South is really entertaining.

I do wonder how the ruthlessness and carnage of the Civil War is perceived in Europe right now.

This chapter was meant to include information regarding the foreign situation, but I got carried away and ran out of space. We will examine it later. And thanks, by the way!

My Favorite chapter to date.

The Union Forever!

Down with the traitors!

Ironically the African American population will be much lower TTL by the 21 century. The racism and Jim Crow Laws that put a stamp on segregation will be violently resisted allowing for greater racial Integration over a century early on, so mix race kids will be numerous.

I mean, I get that you're considered Black in America by having only one Black parent but... Demographic's not on their side once intermixing kicks in.

That's definitely a possibility, though I think it'll take longer for the fear against "miscegenation" to completely go away. And even then, prejudice will remain. Trust me, I'm Latin American and racism is quite alive and well here despite extensive race mixing.

amazing chapter!!! I thought know one knew what greek fire was?

I kinda doubt this because we are definitly not gonna see interracial marriage be accpeted by end of reconstruction and for a while after this, also let not get into who black and who not and stuff, also durning this time I belive much more south was much more black since decades of racial oppresion hadn't forced them to flee and great migaration, red summer exc/ more states were majoorty black
since the south white populaton gonna go down a lot I except that in some states african americans will become majoirty
View attachment 583342

See above for the Greek fire explanation. Agree regarding future demographics, but some migration is probably inevitable since the South would remain impoverished and agrarian, while the industrial and prosperous North would naturally attract many African Americans.

This timeline is one that I've been following with immense interest, and I actually chose my current uni course (about slavery, segregation, and Jim Crow) because of this timeline!
I never really knew about the immense effects the Civil War had in the USA, and how things went precisely during Reconstruction, so I do thank you for providing the impetus for me learning more about it!

The increased radicality of the war is unfortunate, but I suppose one could say it will be more than worth it, with a far more equal and righteous USA after it than in OTL.

Wow, that's great! It's really an interesting topic. I'm not even American and I find it fascinating. Really, the modern US is the result of the Civil War and the failures of Reconstruction. I'm really glad this project inspired you to learn more. Good luck with uni!

This chapter was nothing short of amazing. You clearly put a lot of research, effort and love into it, and it shows. You're one hell of an inspiration!

That's high praise! I truly appreciate it, thanks.

I'm surprised that you can speak good English. Argentina as with the southernmost half of Latin America such as Uruguay, Chile and southern Brazil are the whitest areas of the region. The same goes for Cuba and to an extent Puerto Rico and parts of Mexico.

No need to be so surprised. I myself am Latin American, and only speak English as a Second Language.

Wonderful chapter!

And now my mind is wandering and wondering what all the colonial powers of Europe, who although not right now occupying much of Africa itself still view those with darker skin as inferior, are thinking about the radicalism developing across the pond.

I'm afraid they will be able to find another way to rationalize the terrible practice of colonialism.

 

[Ficboy]

Please like the post! Since I put a lot of work into this update I'd be very grateful if you could like it to show whether it was well received.



Thank you! Also, a mule and a rifle.



What do you mean exactly? Because, yes, I do rely heavily on McPherson's book. But everytime I've taken a direct quote from him I've put it between quotations marks.



I'm glad you enjoyed this! And it's just starting.



I need to brush up on my Roman history, but yes, this time the Southern will must be forever broken.



Thanks! And Breckenridge is better at administration than Davis. The Confederacy probably would already have been conquered if Jeffy was in charge.



So, my... fascination, so to speak, with pikes comes from close to home. Literally. The bloody caudillo Jose Thomas Boves, during Venezuela's war for independence, used pikes and lances to behead people opposed to the crown. I based a lot of the atrocities depicted here in Bolivar and Boves' exploits, thus explaining why I tend to include things like pikes and heads on stakes. Besides, it's not completely anachronistic. Governor Brown offered pikes to arms Confederate soldiers, and, besides, I use the word loosely to mean any improvised lance.

I kind of regret including that reference to Greek Fire now. I included it after I read Mark E. Neely's "The Civil War and the Limits of Destruction", which talks a little about Greek Fire. It, indeed, is not the real Greek fire the Byzantines had used, but since the history of the Roman Empire occupied such a central part in the imagination of Victorians, any explosive or incendiary substance received the name of Greek fire, especially if it was especially destructive and/or feared. That's why the Punch cartoon that depicts Lincoln and the Tsar has a large explosion labelled "Greek fire" in the background. In this case, the British labeled an experimental torpedo that the Union used against Charleston as Greek fire, and added that to the list of atrocities even though, Neely claims, no person actually died from them.

Henry J. Raymond was the co-founder of the New York Times. And, no, it's correct as "would migrate", since the complete sentence is "Northerners who feared that Blacks would migrate to the North".



This chapter was meant to include information regarding the foreign situation, but I got carried away and ran out of space. We will examine it later. And thanks, by the way!



Down with the traitors!



That's definitely a possibility, though I think it'll take longer for the fear against "miscegenation" to completely go away. And even then, prejudice will remain. Trust me, I'm Latin American and racism is quite alive and well here despite extensive race mixing.



See above for the Greek fire explanation. Agree regarding future demographics, but some migration is probably inevitable since the South would remain impoverished and agrarian, while the industrial and prosperous North would naturally attract many African Americans.



Wow, that's great! It's really an interesting topic. I'm not even American and I find it fascinating. Really, the modern US is the result of the Civil War and the failures of Reconstruction. I'm really glad this project inspired you to learn more. Good luck with uni!



That's high praise! I truly appreciate it, thanks.



No need to be so surprised. I myself am Latin American, and only speak English as a Second Language.



I'm afraid they will be able to find another way to rationalize the terrible practice of colonialism.

For someone from Latin America, you really do have a good amount of knowledge of Civil War history. The continent has Whites, Mestizos, Blacks, Asians, Arabs, Jews, Indigenous and other ethnic groups living there making more racially mixed and diverse than the United States. Just looking at your surname, it's Spanish, Portuguese or Italian. By the way, there are many Italians living in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Venezuela. You might be one of them.

As far as my comment about your timeline being The Battle Cry of Freedom it draws inspiration from the book even going so far as to use quotes by James McPherson and shout outs.