Alternate Planets, Suns, Stars, and Solar Systems Thread

I too would like to see a Mars with the mass of Earth!

And I have a fanciful question for everyone here, with pulpy tropes. Would it be within the laws of physics for an Earthlike planet inhabited by something like humans, but with lower gravity, so the residents can cheaply build airships and can perform feats of strength without expending much energy, and the lower gravity is caused not by the planet being smaller in volume, but by the interior of the planet having a large number of vast air-filled caverns, inhabited by large animals and bioluminescent plants?
 
I too would like to see a Mars with the mass of Earth!

And I have a fanciful question for everyone here, with pulpy tropes. Would it be within the laws of physics for an Earthlike planet inhabited by something like humans, but with lower gravity, so the residents can cheaply build airships and can perform feats of strength without expending much energy, and the lower gravity is caused not by the planet being smaller in volume, but by the interior of the planet having a large number of vast air-filled caverns, inhabited by large animals and bioluminescent plants?
I suppose theoretically no, but what do you mean by the interior? Just the crust? Because the further down you go, the hotter it will get. Nature tends to abhor vacuums so big pockets in say, the mantle of another planet will be filled by something, likely molten magma.
 
I was figuring the large animals and plants (or plantlike fauna) would only be in caverns in the crust, probably in the top few hundred meters. Ideally, I'd like there to be pockets deeper still, full of lightweight materials, and the pockets would be enough to equal to a lower mass than Earth, causing lower gravity.

If that's not theoretically possible, is it theoretically possible for a slightly smaller planet than Earth to have miles-long caverns in its crust, that are home to megafauna?
 
You have to handwave an energy source for the bioluminescent plants; but if this is mysterious Pulp Science, then repeat to yourself "it's just a show"...
 
I too would like to see a Mars with the mass of Earth!

And I have a fanciful question for everyone here, with pulpy tropes. Would it be within the laws of physics for an Earthlike planet inhabited by something like humans, but with lower gravity, so the residents can cheaply build airships and can perform feats of strength without expending much energy, and the lower gravity is caused not by the planet being smaller in volume, but by the interior of the planet having a large number of vast air-filled caverns, inhabited by large animals and bioluminescent plants?

To do something like that you need magical technology like 'gravity folds', 'stasis fields', and so on. But, if we ever do get technology that enables us to build something like that someone will make Pellucidar.


[snip]
If that's not theoretically possible, is it theoretically possible for a slightly smaller planet than Earth to have miles-long caverns in its crust, that are home to megafauna?

In my 'TRNTverse future history' there are an increasing number of cities built by digging tunnels and caverns in moons, asteroids, and other places with unpleasant weather. A lot of the cavern ceilings are hundreds of meters tall, and both the caverns and the tunnels are landscaped with trees, bushes, grass, often a flowing stream, and so on.

One of them that sort of resembles what you describe is a large asteroid that has been tunneled through completely as a three-dimensional labyrinth, sometimes with one wall of a tunnel or cavern having an artificial gravity field, but most of a tunnel or cavern is in asteroid gravity, and with the way the tunnels twist and turn the barely noticeable 'down' shifts any time you move more than a few meters.... A 'nearly free-fall' jungle of 'house plants gone wild' in a confusing complex of branching and converging twenty-meter-wide tunnels. And hummingbirds, who love the low-gravity. (Well-lit, of course, with 'advanced-better-than-led' lights, little lights who ubiquitous means that there are essentially no shadows and the plants can benefit from growing in almost any direction. The plants need light, and for humans playing in dark cramped tunnels is very much a niche taste.) The surface of the asteroid is enclosed in a bubble of 'duracrystal' and has been terraformed into an extremely low-gravity park - with banyan trees well over a hundred meters tall....and the gravity is low enough that humans reflexively become an arboreal species once again!
 
Cool!

I was thinking more about my question. I'm wondering if lower gravity would be a big factor in making airships more practical. Or would a bigger factor be a heavier atmosphere? But if the air is heavier, would that interfere with people being able to lift heavy objects and leap really well?
 
Cool!

I was thinking more about my question. I'm wondering if lower gravity would be a big factor in making airships more practical. Or would a bigger factor be a heavier atmosphere? But if the air is heavier, would that interfere with people being able to lift heavy objects and leap really well?
Well on the Saturnian moon Titan apparently the atmosphere is thick enough that a human being with wing flaps on their arms can supposedly fly and soar around if they're insulated and have an air supply.
 
Cool!

I was thinking more about my question. I'm wondering if lower gravity would be a big factor in making airships more practical. Or would a bigger factor be a heavier atmosphere? But if the air is heavier, would that interfere with people being able to lift heavy objects and leap really well?
A heavier atmosphere would also benefit airplanes. Airships aren't overly practical once you can generate the same amount of lift with a much smaller craft.
 
Question for someone more versed in astronomy than me.

Is it theoretically possible for a reflection or emission nebula to be close enough to a planet that it would light up the night sky similar to a sun?

If so how close would that be?

(I'm not concerned with how probably it is just if it could theoretically happen.)
 
Question for someone more versed in astronomy than me.
Is it theoretically possible for a reflection or emission nebula to be close enough to a planet that it would light up the night sky similar to a sun?
If so how close would that be?
(I'm not concerned with how probably it is just if it could theoretically happen.)

If the stars in the nebula that are lighting it up enough and the star system is close enough - sure! I'm inclined to assume that much more than 'a full moon' verges on the extremely unlikely or potentially dangerous because stars so bright tend to go boom, and close enough for 'lots of light' is probably close enough to have a supernova ruin your day.
 
Well for starters it would probably still have a magnetosphere so possibly may keep more of its volatile ices instead of losing mostly everything to space over the millenia >.>
Let's assume that Mars formed as the mass of the Earth, and that it had kept it's thicker atmosphere. Due to it's larger size, it would be able to hold onto a magnetosphere. Let's also say that Phobos and Deimos are both Ceres mass, with Phobos being half the distance of the moon, and Deimos orbiting Mars slightly further out. Along with that, I'll add that Mars's orbit is nearly circular like the Earth's, with it's orbital distance at the closest point it approaches in our timeline. How would this change Mars's appearance, and humanity's perception of it?
 
Let's assume that Mars formed as the mass of the Earth, and that it had kept it's thicker atmosphere. Due to it's larger size, it would be able to hold onto a magnetosphere. Let's also say that Phobos and Deimos are both Ceres mass, with Phobos being half the distance of the moon, and Deimos orbiting Mars slightly further out. Along with that, I'll add that Mars's orbit is nearly circular like the Earth's, with it's orbital distance at the closest point it approaches in our timeline. How would this change Mars's appearance, and humanity's perception of it?
Well it'll be a good deal more interesting in general and people are already super-fascinated with it OTL so they are likely to be even more obsessive ITTL.
 
Would it be stable?
Like physically? I don't have the scientific knowledge to state q definite yes or no but I think that it would depend upon how the orbit is balanced out with the rest of the planets in the Solar System, or something like that, not sure how to explain it or if I am thinking of the right reason lol
 
Some of the osculating orbital elements will change very slightly with a different planetary mass but they'll not affect the long-term stability of the entire alt-system at timescales shorter than 500,000,000 years. Larger moons will help by reducing residual nutation in tilt.
 
Some of the osculating orbital elements will change very slightly with a different planetary mass but they'll not affect the long-term stability of the entire alt-system at timescales shorter than 500,000,000 years. Larger moons will help by reducing residual nutation in tilt.
So it strikes me that an Earth-mass Mars, in a slightly different orbit would be realistic?
 
So it strikes me that an Earth-mass Mars, in a slightly different orbit would be realistic?
Completely so. Even the orbit would only be different by a very miniscule degree, enough that you could ignore it as a rounding error for AH story-telling purposes.

As to whether it would be warm enough, on average, on the surface to retain liquid water, IDK. I don't know how to calculate that, it depends hugely on the composition of the atmosphere as well as the average distance from the Sun. I do remember that Kim Stanley Robinson had regions on the terraformed OTL Mars in his Mars trilogy where the temperature was above zero, I feel fairly sure he'd have asked someone in the know to get some sensible data but I couldn't guarantee it.

Judging from this, the average surface temp of Earth absent an atmosphere or any oceans, ice or life would be roughly 274.5 K, or 1.5 °C. The actual average temperature is usually given as 14 °C, or about 287 K, a difference of around 12.5 degrees.

This NASA page reckons that Mars has a current average surface temp of roughly -63 °C / roughly 210 K. Mars does have an atmosphere at present but it's really, really rarified. So it might be reasonable to just apply the same difference of Earth with vs without atmosphere to Mars, implying that just adding an Earth-like atmosphere could raise the average to 222.5 K or -50.5 °C. But the average temperature is related to the planet's insolated surface area too, i.e. if Mars were bigger then the temperature would be higher as a result, although if you found some way to increase the mass without increasing the radius hence surface area then this point would be moot.*

It's also just the average over the whole planet over its whole year. OTL landers have measured ground temps of up to the high 20s °C during local summer. Local temperature can also go higher as you get deeper into the atmosphere, so the bottom of the Valles Marineris will be warmer than, say, Hesperia Planum at the same latitude.

So it still feels reasonable that an Earth-diameter Mars with an Earth-like atmosphere could definitely have a temperate climate near the equator, though I reckon the equivalent of tundra will kick in a much lower latitudes than on Earth, and the polar regions will reach much further down from the poles than ours do.

*Wouldn't be the only issue though. If you kept the radius (0.53 of Earth) the same but increased the mass, density would increase to 6.717 times Earth's, instead of the OTL 0.71, which would give an average surface gravity of 3.56 g. Increase the mass to match Earth's but keep the density the same, then the radius ends up larger than Earth's (c. 1.12) and surface gravity is only about 0.8 g.
 
@Cydonius

So if Mars had the same mass and diameter as the Earth (roughly speaking), what would need to change about it's atmosphere to have liquid water and oceans on it's surface? If we assume that Mars has an atmosphere similar to that of Earth's, a magnetosphere and the same rotation period similar to that of Earth - would this Mars be livable by humans? I imagine that humans would see that this Mars is only slightly brighter than ours in the sky due to it being larger and a little closer, but this doesn't strike me as a change that would change much about human history until later on in the modern era for humans.
 
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