TheSpectacledCloth
Gone Fishin'
Nah, it probably means that Goering will consolidate more power, because von Papen won't have the influence to capitalize.
8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923
- Thread starter KaiserKatze
- Start date
For Lichtenstein you could always adopt the relationship the British have with the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. Self governing but with Britain responsible for external relations and defence. Allows for substantial economic linkages but with the option of it staying a tax haven.
Probably need a marriage link between the Lichtenstein ruling family (who are?) and the German (or Austrian?) royal houses for the title of Grand Duke can rest with the sovereign power. Or some arm twisting for the old family to relinquish its rights.
Fascinating, thanks.
With the topic of expansion now viable, something which will become relevant, especially with the matter of von Lettow-Vorbeck and Adenauer at the head of Germany, is the former German colonies (LV because of his colonial general background and Adenauer as the former head of the German Colonial Society). Even the more liberal parties were big supporters of regaining them, and their theft in the Treaty of Versailles was considered illegitimate by most.
My question is in regards to the German colonies which are now controlled by the British Dominions, like Southwest (part of South Africa) or Kaiser-Wilhelms-Land (now controlled by Australia). If Britain were to try and sell (never give, heavens no!) some of Germany's colonies back, would they be able to actually compel the Dominions to do so? I know that South Africa would oppose the sale, for one. Australia, too.
My question is in regards to the German colonies which are now controlled by the British Dominions, like Southwest (part of South Africa) or Kaiser-Wilhelms-Land (now controlled by Australia). If Britain were to try and sell (never give, heavens no!) some of Germany's colonies back, would they be able to actually compel the Dominions to do so? I know that South Africa would oppose the sale, for one. Australia, too.
Still, the role of Schleicher's allies like von Bredow and Eugen Ott would be something that this TL could flesh out here without the purge of Schleicher leading to Bredow being killed and Ott sidelined via being sent to Japan.
Likely not without serious costs on part of the British government making the whole affair not worth it. In the case of South Africa I think they may actually sooner leave the British empire than part with Namibia. Not too sure about Australia but I don't imagine they would at all appreciate giving up something that they earned with their own blood and steel.
The only colony that I think has a chance of being returned (slight jt may be) is Kamerun. There the OTL Weimar government was active in purchasing the plantations that were lost after world war one and they were also actively lobbying for being included in the administration of the mandate through official channels. Nothing came of it and I'm not sure a more hostile France ITTL would make it possible at all...
I'm afraid the ship may have already sailed
Well Von Papen hated him (it's a major reason he entered into the insanity of backing Hitler in the first place) and without the Nazis they both probably survive and may even thrive but the inner circle is probably set in stone and won't change for a while.
Tanzania maybe but yeah it's to late, especially as the already racist South African government can probably see the way the winds are already blowing even this early. They will not be happy handing over a territory that might be an independent black Republic in a few decades, and even now sheer distance will probably result in local administration creating an educated black class. All things they really don't want...
My plan at the moment is to have the idea of a sale be broached under Chamberlain's government as a way to help balance the budget, getting a lump sum from Germany, decreasing occupation costs, and also getting Germany to pledge investment in the Cape-to-Cairo Railroad and to build it up in their zone so that Britain can focus on their issues in regions like Uganda and Sudan. I am planning for him to propose the sale of Taganyika and Southwest to Germany, which Parliament will agree to on the grounds that Germany abandons other colonial claims and is roped into a deal forcing them to complete the railroad and allow British access. To Parliament's surprise, though, the South Africans will blanket refuse, beginning a discussion on the authority of London over the Dominions.
I am basing the idea of the sale being a possibility because of the widespread belief that such colonies were a European right and that taking Germany's was unfair. Plus, I see some of the more realistic members of the government finding the Cape to Cairo project to be a distraction. And I definitely can't resist the idea of von Lettow-Vorbeck regaining East Africa
Well without von Schleicher becoming Chancellor, von Papen doesn't hate him. Despite this, he does resent his unimportant position in the government, especially with the power of the Zentrum. But even beyond his lack of real charisma and influence, von Lettow-Vorbeck dislikes him.
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Kick
It's simply a big no IMO. France isn't going to give colonies up to Germany, it's France. Britain will not give up East Africa and South Africa simply will not give up Namibia. And Pacific colonies simply are too strategically irrelevant for Germany if they have nothing in between to provide logistical support.
>racist South Africa
>way the winds are blowing
Honestly, this just indicates such a lack of knowledge on South African history. The first part of the 20th century was when the white and black sections of South Africa were at a rough demographical parity with a minor advantage to its black part. Jan Smuts, post WW2, was hoping to make the country into a white majority by encouraging European migration. The Bantustans were a attempt to introduce self governance for the black population in admittedly vastly outdated tribal area's. The eventual goal was for them to gain indepence like the British protectorates over Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland had. Despite this, millions migrated from the wartorn regions of Middle Africa to South Africa. The South African government was in the end unwilling to take Greater Apartheid (the Bantustans, seperate from Little Apartheid which already existed under the British Cape Colony) to its natural end by decoupling the white economy from cheap black labour. I'm honestly sick of seeing views on South Africa framed by nothing but anti-Apartheid communist political agitators.
The ship on the whole dominion talk may already have sailed with the 1931 Statute of Westminster. But the crisis you're proposing for South Africa may only be really possible because of it. Funny thing is, for as much as Smuts was the more pro-British part of South Africa politics, he would be absolutely unwilling to part with Namibia, I think he stated as such in the context of negotations surrounding the end to WW1. As for East Africa, a Manchuria type of deal for the railroads and maybe some degree of British involvement in German military deployment in the region could well help Britain into selling Tangyanika.
Probably better to focus all effort on getting Togo (good place to grow tropical foods but in french hands) or a portion of Kamerun (possibly limit the effort to the British part which is nice and equatorial so could have long term use as a space port and also holds some petroleum reserves if i remember correctly) than waste it with SW or East Africa.
If the area that Germany gets is small enough in terms of population, a semiauthoritarian government such as LV's could even manage getting a decently large portion of the populace to be white, by means of exile, incentives to settle and repression of the natives.
If the area that Germany gets is small enough in terms of population, a semiauthoritarian government such as LV's could even manage getting a decently large portion of the populace to be white, by means of exile, incentives to settle and repression of the natives.
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Probably a good point from a purely pragmatic POV, but with this not being an SI and L-V having connection to East Africa, I don't think it would go this way.
Good luck for that. Entente might be fine for remilitarisation of Rheinland, taking Danzig and Memel and perhaps with Anschluss but letting Germany return to Africa is too much for them.
Speaking of this again, is there a chance France does a Faustian Bargain with the USSR given how isolated they are seemingly becoming? Not an official alliance mind you but a "If Germany attacks you, we attack them back" sorta of deal?
Although I don't think Germany would go to war unless pushed, especially because they won't aggressively invest in the military like the Nazis did, but they'll still upgrade and expand it "just in case"
France is increasingly finding itself in a position where its only option is a Faustian Bargain, the only question which really remains is whether they will do so with the USSR or the Italians, either of whom will have steep demands of the French state. A lot of this will come to a head during the Spanish Civil War, since the two major options are also the main backers in that war and the winner will definitely have an affect on Paris
Don't give Germany too much credit. Yes, aggressive war isn't on the table for a long while yet based on the state of their military, but redrawing of the map in their favour is a prominent goal, war being a completely viable option to the minds of many.
IMO while both are indeed bad deals, the Italian is not nearly as bad. It's hard to understate how toxic the USSR was in this period, diplomatically speaking. An alliance with them would be met with widespread condemnation from every country that matters. The Fascist regime in Italy, as horrible as it was, was still not that different from what Europe was used to. Authoritarianism and Imperialism were nothing new, even if the fascists had a slightly different tint. It's easy to see that in OTL Britain and France were not deterred from making deals with them, before they aligned with Germany.
I don't think they'd be shy to go to war, they would just be smarter about it. A European-wide war helps no one.
Oh yeah that will be another headache coming in, even though there's been many changes from OTL I sadly don't see the Republicans winning here unless you have something else planned.
Who would be their target then? France could be useful given how isolated they are and defeating them once again could finally prevent them from rising again. Although Poland is also a viable target given Dazing as well connecting the two Prussias together.
Why is that? Without the Nazis supporting the Nationalists, I see it as being far closer than OTL whichever way it goes.
France is non-viable since that would bring Britain up against them to protect the balance of power. However, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Austria would all be options given German claims. Of course, each one would not remain a limited war so are currently impossible.
A fair point... however, I honestly think East Africa is just not achievable for the reasons other people have outlined.
I fully agree, but among the impossible there is a least impossible, which imho is probably the British portion of Kamerun or Togo. However, hindsight is a rare resource that is not available to to L-V and partners 🤷♂️
Something which crossed my mind yesterday when I was thinking about what ways Germany could go about gaining a colony would be to buy one off Portugal. Not sure whether it has been mentioned before ... I still think it's wasted effort but it would make for a more realistic story if L-V gets lost in foolhardy ventures such as colonial adventurism, so I'm all for it in the context of the story
As far as colonies go, I think Namibia is probably the most realistic assuming the British can strong-arm South Africa into giving it up, but whether or not they will I'm not optimistic. Tanganyika's too strategically important for Britain (not to mention the whole Cape-to-Cairo thing) and there's no way Germany's getting back Togo or Kamerun baring they win a major war against France.
I'm not too positive on that - under German administration, Namibia was practically the only German settler colony in Africa, and i don't see much reason for them to change tack if they get it back, and i suspect that if it goes independent under these circumstances, it'll end up something like Rhodesia.
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