And speaking of which, I imagine in a world without Nazism, either the Soviet Union, Fascist Italy, the Japanese Empire, or whatever emerges from France would be seen as the epitome of evil but no single figure would be viewed as the ultimate evil ITTL as people could easily make arguments for why either of them is the most evil without the sheer scale of Nazi evil in mind.
8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923
- Thread starter KaiserKatze
- Start date
Sinking of Lusitania, anyone?
I do hope that more nuance at viewing politics would emerge there.
No one are purely good or evil, only people with interests and their available means on hand to further those interests.
Same here, though yeah, I imagine that sans Nazism, Imperial Japan, Fascist Italy, and the Soviet Union (along with whatever emerges in France) ends up being the "go-to villains" for TTL's pop culture to use at the very least.
You're asking an interwar nation to not paint an enemy power as the Root Of All Evil (TM)? Best of luck.
I think they were talking about historiographical perspectives in modern times, FWIW.
Garrison
Donor
The real stupidity was sending the telegram in the first place, but it fits into a pattern of poor diplomatic and strategic decisions by Imperial Germany. At the same time the resumption of USW would almost certainly have brought the US into the war. In the context of this TL it did happen and von Lettow has to deal with the long term consequences.
The danger of the stabbed in the back myth is that it blinds Germans to the economic and strategic realities they faced in 1918. However much like Britain and France there was little appetite for a new war and in the absence of Hitler's rabid warmongering I suspect the most likely source of a major conflict is Mussolini's Italy.
Or Imperial Japan, especially as the invasion of Manchuria and Japan leaving the League was before Hitler took over Germany.
Ehhh, while it did cause episode of anti-German hysteria in US, I think that it wasn't the crucial factor in US entry. We've had this discussion like 3 or 4 years ago on this board, and the consensus was, that even if TR were President at the time being, he wouldn't have been able to actually declare war on Germany quite to popular belief and numerous ATLs. Congress was rabidly pro-neutrality, and wouldn't have approved anything like actual declaration of war. Embargo, sanctions, more loans to Entente? Sure. But entering the war at this point? No.
TR would have been forced to bide and wait for opportunity to present itself, which is by coincidence... In 1917!
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Wouldn't Japanese Empire still be around even if Nazis never existed, they might just end up never warring the US or the European Empires?
Yup, which is why I consider them, Fascist Italy, Soviet Russia, or Nationalist France (from the author's teasers and hints) to be the go-to villains for this TL's pop culture.
Ah, I misread your post.
Anyways, I doubt there would be an ultimate villain in the same sense as there is in OTL, just a bunch of different baddies with none of them being the ultimate one. On the other hand, it might also mean less focus on the battle between good and evil, and more amoral popular fiction? Think of something like Conan the Barbarian (which was written before WWII) vs. high fantasy.
no, Lusitania a) illegally transported ammunition and b) was built with RN subsidy, constructed to navy standards & materials and was listed as a auxiliary cruiser and thus for both reasons it was a legit target. (i think the germans actually used the british publication Janes All the World's fighting ships as means to determine what was a legit target) .
i seem to recall that when it happened they even thought it was fake (after all it was britain that controlled those transatlantic lines)
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I actually now thought about it, and ironically, imagined a scenario, where TR gets elected, Lusitania sinks, TR overreacts, almost gets US in a war with Germany, but is restrained by Congress. Germans are scared off more than IRL, but the whole story dies off as per OTL.Ehhh, while it did cause episode of anti-German hysteria in US, I think that it wasn't the crucial factor in US entry. We've had this discussion like 3 or 4 years ago on this board, and the consensus was, that even if TR were President at the time being, he wouldn't have been able to actually declare war on Germany quite to popular belief and numerous ATLs. Congress was rabidly pro-neutrality, and wouldn't have approved anything like actual declaration of war. Embargo, sanctions, more loans to Entente? Sure. But entering the war at this point? No.
TR would have been forced to bide and wait for opportunity to present itself, which is by coincidence... In 1917!
Come 1917, anti-USW voices in Bethmann-Holweig Cabinet, OHL, and Kaiser's inner circle are more loud, and remembering Lusitania war scare, ultimately OHL and Kaiser back down from declaring USW.
That'd be one hell of preamble to TL
I have been wanting to write CP victory timeline for 5 years now. Unfortunately, can't do it due to life circumstances going on, but if I ever sit down to do it, I'll actually start it off like that.
Sorry for derailment, just got myself thinking again.
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The British had absolute proof that the Zimmerman Telegram was real. When the war started, the British cut all German telegraph cables to the Americas. Germany then asked for the use of the US State Department cable to the embassy in Denmark. The US agreed, provided only diplomatic messages were sent in clear. In 1917, the Germans persuaded the US to allow them to send the ZT in cipher.
The Germans did not realize that the US cable (like several others) passed through the relay station at Land's End in Britain, where the signals were boosted for the trans-Atlantic hop. British intelligence monitored this traffic, of course, but told no one. Also, the British had broken the cipher used for the ZT.
Thus the British could show the US both the cipher text and the cleartext of of the ZT, and demonstrate the deciphering. And the US could verify the ciphertext from the State Department files of messages sent on its cable. The British didn't even have to admit to monitoring the cables at Land's End.
When Germany resumed USW, they feared that it would cause the US to declare war. Zimmerman sent the Telegram to get the German Embassy in Mexico ready for action in case the US did so. One reason he acknowledged the ZT was that it didn't seem particularly damning - it was to be acted upon only after the US declared war on Germany.
Garrison
Donor
'Neutrality' needs to be in quotes here. Technically the US was willing to sell to anyone, practically the were perfectly well aware there was no way the Germans could buy anything. At the same time British actions in operating the blockade attracted half-hearted diplomatic responses while Germany's were met with threats of war. The German conduct in Belgium did them no favours in terms of influencing the USA, nor did being the one to introduce gas warfare and aerial bombardment of cities.
But you can't simply flip a switch on USW, you have to put it in context. The British blockade was strangling Germany and USW was the only effective way of striking back. The flow of US materials to the Entente meant that US neutrality was questionable at best. The Zimmerman telegram makes sense when you are expecting the US to enter the war anyway. Also if the US doesn't enter the war then Entente strategy in 1917-18 is going to be completely different. IOTL it was based on 'waiting for the Americans', in their absence they would do things differently. But again that's all in the past as far as this TL is concerned.
You have to make 1916 less successful for Entente for German leadership discard the option of USW at least for 1917...
But that's a whole another story, and not for this thread, it's a thing of the past for this universe indeed.
I can get behind this. Mopeds used to be the poor man's choice when cars were up and coming in the post WW2 era. And at this point the speed difference wouln't be rediculously massive.
Ramontxo
Donor
"El que tiene Vespa tiene Neska..." "He who has a Vespa has a Neska"
Vespa:
Neska:
(Pics from internet)
The new update is really fun to read! I like how the different actors in the Rhenish state and the general government all trying to push for their own agendas, and the look into how germans feel about Danzig and why all of them want a better solution for Danzig and Prussia is shown very clearly here, which is very interesting. Martha telling Arnd that 'fighting everyone got us WWI and the stab in the back' is very appropriate for what happened during that period in time.