At least the Federalists went out with some dignity with their last de facto candidate, in addition to winning three states, being a respected Founding Father who opposed slavery in his later years, unlike the remnants of the Democratic Party (sorry, "National Union") who split in three and failed to win a single state as a result.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Naturally. Still a damn real shame, though. Shovels, ropes, and bullets are expensive, after all.
Is it weird that I find this funny in a metaphysical/metatextual sense?
@Red_Galiray ! Amazing! LINCOLN VICTORY! His place as the Greatest is becoming more assured!
"I do not want a master, not even a nice one like you." anonymous freedwoman edit: Just to be sure, I made this up. I'm just thought it would have been a fitting thing to say. Maybe someone actually said it, but I do not know that.
Seriously, the way marriage law worked back then is disgusting, especially when you ask "how does this compare to slavery". Mind you, I'm by NO means saying it is the same or whatever. If nothing else, the social status is much better. What I mean is that is close enough to feel disturbing. Coverture for example was actually compared to slavery back then, and I can see why. So I really liked this section.
Is that ITL or OTL ?
I will admit that I expected to see the end of the war, but this was nice too. If anything, I have been spoiled by the attention to detail this TL has. Seriously, I felt that other TL's update was too short, and I realized that I have been unconsciously comparing it with this.
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Loved this alternate election of 1864! The power of vote splitting can indeed be wonderful 😀
I got a particular amount of schadenfreude reading about the Chestnut infighting between some of the worst political actors from the most contentious elections of the period! Watching Johnson and Pendleton go down swinging at each other is quite satisfying.
I got a particular amount of schadenfreude reading about the Chestnut infighting between some of the worst political actors from the most contentious elections of the period! Watching Johnson and Pendleton go down swinging at each other is quite satisfying.
The log with which Lincoln has struck down the Confederacy is now the broomhandle by which he sweeps away the foes arrayed against him on the ballot.
Move over Jeb! it's LINCOLN SWEEP TIME! Glad to see the conservatives get whipped. And reading about the social transformation in the liberated lands warms my heart. It's almost an alien feeling to us in our atomized modern age, to read about communities pulling together so well in the chaos.
I am curious if the different nature of the war combined with the coup has made the soldiers of the Union army more radicalized overall? Because if that is the case that could have some hopefully positive improvements on Reconstruction and racial equality in the US of this timeline moving forward.
fighter the dead enders will make the Union soldiers bitter, and great chapter look forward to other amendments
Great stuff, fabulous election coverage. The infighting between the three former National unionist teammates was great.
It's nice to see Lincoln get a sweep. Though some will argue Washington's sweep was better since Lincoln's was from a divided opposition, it is still an amazing feat nonetheless. He certainly deserves it.
The discussion of Education was what amazed me. I knew that it was very important to blacks growing up and I understood that this was because of the problems that they faced before, but I had never really considered just how important it was.
The presence of so many fatherless children because of all the deaths in the war will have an impact among those who survive, and it should make a dent in the expectation that people have to be married. There is some truth to the idea that a male figure is important as a role model because children do look up to men and very early decide, as the song Cats in the Cradle says, "I'm going to be like him." They can certainly still do so in a marriage that is much more equal, though.
It's great to see how so many people take in children during this time when families can't be located. Those role models are stepping forward. Hopefully, the increase insistence on women's rights will mean that there will be more progress more quickly toward more equal marriages.
After all, the way a man treats a woman is the way those children are going to grow up expecting that that's the way it is to be done. That's why our family here in Ohio and western Pennsylvania for a couple centuries has been much more equal in the way men treat women then Society of large, because the tradition started back in the early 1800s then we had women who would expect that the men would treat them with respect and dignity.
And, I imagine there are a lot of those kids who are going to look at Abraham Lincoln and want to be like him as well.
I suspect that the thing about teachers not using the derogatory n-word was only for those who were going to the South to educate them, if it even was something real in our timeline. But it is nice to see that if it wasn't in our timeline it is here. It's a start, at the very least. There are certainly been pockets of whites who would never use that word, at least, by the early 1900s.
It's nice to see Lincoln get a sweep. Though some will argue Washington's sweep was better since Lincoln's was from a divided opposition, it is still an amazing feat nonetheless. He certainly deserves it.
The discussion of Education was what amazed me. I knew that it was very important to blacks growing up and I understood that this was because of the problems that they faced before, but I had never really considered just how important it was.
The presence of so many fatherless children because of all the deaths in the war will have an impact among those who survive, and it should make a dent in the expectation that people have to be married. There is some truth to the idea that a male figure is important as a role model because children do look up to men and very early decide, as the song Cats in the Cradle says, "I'm going to be like him." They can certainly still do so in a marriage that is much more equal, though.
It's great to see how so many people take in children during this time when families can't be located. Those role models are stepping forward. Hopefully, the increase insistence on women's rights will mean that there will be more progress more quickly toward more equal marriages.
After all, the way a man treats a woman is the way those children are going to grow up expecting that that's the way it is to be done. That's why our family here in Ohio and western Pennsylvania for a couple centuries has been much more equal in the way men treat women then Society of large, because the tradition started back in the early 1800s then we had women who would expect that the men would treat them with respect and dignity.
And, I imagine there are a lot of those kids who are going to look at Abraham Lincoln and want to be like him as well.
I suspect that the thing about teachers not using the derogatory n-word was only for those who were going to the South to educate them, if it even was something real in our timeline. But it is nice to see that if it wasn't in our timeline it is here. It's a start, at the very least. There are certainly been pockets of whites who would never use that word, at least, by the early 1900s.
I should note that it is the n-word that is followed by i not by e. Today there is no difference, both are used as a slur, but back then the second was considered acceptable. Perhaps you already know. I'm just wanted to note that this period it is actually relevant to say which n-word we mean.
IIRC thats only speculation from some historians with regard to the one post-Washington time there was a unanimous EC in 1820. Even if that elector did faithlessly vote for that reason its not a "long tradition" by any means.
OTOH, Lincoln could view a unanimous vote ala Washington as something that could echo the parallels between him and Washington.
That's true, I don't remember if the original story post said which one or not. Although we still do use negro when describing things such as the United Negro College Fund or the Negro Leagues in baseball, but you are right that calling an individual that is derogatory now. My love for baseball means that I do automatically think of the one with an i after it when I think of derogatory ones, however. The one with the e, to me, is describing the leagues, not the people.
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I was of course expecting Lincoln to trounce his opposition, but certainly not as thoroughly as he did here. Even with the likely vote rigging in Delaware and Kentucky, the National Unity Party and remnant Dems are perfunctory at best at this point. With Washingtonian levels of returns, the most immediate near future question for Americans is going to be: what will Lincoln do with that mandate after the war ends? It is very easy to imagine a scenario where, if he wanted to, Lincoln probably could leverage his dictatorial powers (something I say with no judgment and in moral neutrality) to simply hang onto power for the rest of his life. Again, as we've all discussed by now, he is bringing the country through a nigh apocalyptic event and out the other side from it. Perhaps the temptation to run for at least a third term might be there, to also win the peace from his perspective, but I suspect he'll defer. Even with everything going on his character firmly seems to be that he won't do it.
Glad we've also settled on titling it the Second American Revolution at last, because it very well is. A titanic expansion of the federal government, altering the definition of citizenship so that it's entirely possible for non-whites to achieve it even with baby steps, perhaps a somewhat earlier and more successful attempt from the feminist movement in the nation given the appalling casualties for things like women's suffrage (perhaps the late 1800s or early 1900s?) - it really is a shift that is hard to imagine. But the much bloodier, ferocious fighting and Lincoln's concentration of power does mean that, perhaps, the USA is 'just' another republic in the Western hemisphere now; in many ways, how the South finds its own story again will also be the story of the country in the aftermath of the war. Even though the old beliefs that the armed forces should not engage with politics is alive and well with many in the rank and file, who's to say this will hold true for the succeeding generations? Authoritarianism will always cut two ways. We cheer now because it's smiting some of the worst people the country's ever produced but it always make me leery when we consider how things are going to go moving forward.
Very heartening to see the former slaves reach with both hands to seek opportunities through learning, and though it was true OTL, I imagine they're probably even more confident here given that the Freedmen's Bureau is untouchable for the foreseeable future. To learn, uncensored, is now one of the most basic but significant revolutionary acts that they can undertake and especially so if that means that their children will have the tools not to be enslaved if somehow that were to happen again. This desire is also going to increase once it becomes apparent that black majorities mean that a more equitable franchise is necessary anyway, even if the fight for it will be hard. I'm sure moderates, or even just the extremely cynical, once they realize that Black Americans consistently sending Rs to Congress will be a boon for them will throw their weight behind the measure more than they are now.
Glad we've also settled on titling it the Second American Revolution at last, because it very well is. A titanic expansion of the federal government, altering the definition of citizenship so that it's entirely possible for non-whites to achieve it even with baby steps, perhaps a somewhat earlier and more successful attempt from the feminist movement in the nation given the appalling casualties for things like women's suffrage (perhaps the late 1800s or early 1900s?) - it really is a shift that is hard to imagine. But the much bloodier, ferocious fighting and Lincoln's concentration of power does mean that, perhaps, the USA is 'just' another republic in the Western hemisphere now; in many ways, how the South finds its own story again will also be the story of the country in the aftermath of the war. Even though the old beliefs that the armed forces should not engage with politics is alive and well with many in the rank and file, who's to say this will hold true for the succeeding generations? Authoritarianism will always cut two ways. We cheer now because it's smiting some of the worst people the country's ever produced but it always make me leery when we consider how things are going to go moving forward.
Very heartening to see the former slaves reach with both hands to seek opportunities through learning, and though it was true OTL, I imagine they're probably even more confident here given that the Freedmen's Bureau is untouchable for the foreseeable future. To learn, uncensored, is now one of the most basic but significant revolutionary acts that they can undertake and especially so if that means that their children will have the tools not to be enslaved if somehow that were to happen again. This desire is also going to increase once it becomes apparent that black majorities mean that a more equitable franchise is necessary anyway, even if the fight for it will be hard. I'm sure moderates, or even just the extremely cynical, once they realize that Black Americans consistently sending Rs to Congress will be a boon for them will throw their weight behind the measure more than they are now.
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